CCM1 (epic mod)

[Civinator]

Roman Senate is a Great Wonder but only costs 10 shields! Most all other great wonders cost 40-60 times more

This should definitely be a challenge though, AI has alot of units roaming around, so extra care is being taken to defend and keep watch for incoming units.

Tom

Tom, the Roman Senate is one of the GWs that are only available for a certain civ. These kind of GWs are mostly very cheap to assure, that the civ can get that GW in the correct era and the correct time.

This kind of GWs mostly triggers a Golden Age for that civ.

 

[vmxa]

This is an interesting information for me, as I didn´t know here any formula. MM is that the Tech Rate setting for map sizes?

The biggest map size for CCM is 260 x 240 (so the product is the same as 250 x 250).
Can you tell me please the exact steps how to come to 650 (tech rate I suppose). Is there a good explanation in these forums about calculating the best tech rate for map sizes? At present it is at 450 as you said.

Here what I came up with a few years back. I calculated the tile for each size. I used CAII to get the tile counts for each size. I got the MM (cost factor for map size) from the editor for each size.

I compared the ratios against the std map, so it is 1. The supxxx is non default counts you can make. I played some 200 and lots of 250. I played in a number of SG's with Greebley and they used 650. This has proven to be a fair number.

So these are the numbers I use for what I call massive maps. I do not change the ship movements for any of the map sizes. Greebley does increase some and lowers others.

Map tiles:
std = 100x100 = 10000; 5000 tiles in CAII; 240 CF (1.0); 1x
huge = 160x160 = 16960; 12800 tiles in CAII; 400 CF (1.66); 2.56x
sup200 = 200x200 = 40000; 20000 tiles in CAII; 530 CF (2.21); 4x
sup250 = 250x250 = 62500; 31250 tiles not checked in CAII; 650 CF (2.71); 6.25x
sup362 = 362x362 = 131044; 59006 tiles in CAII; 750 CF (3.125); 11.80x tiles of std.

 

[vmxa]

Civinator here is the formula as it was in PTW. It is the same as near as I can tell for
C3C. They only added in the new levels:

Research Cost = [MM * [10*COST * (1 - N/[CL*1.75])]/(CF * 10)] - Research done so far. Research Cost and research done so far are in gold.

Square brackets indicate truncation /rounding down.

MM = map modifier (tech rate on world sizes tab in the editor)
Tiny 160
Small 200
Standard 240
Large 320
Huge 400

CF = AI cost factor(as on the difficulty tab in the editor)
For the purposes of the research cost formula, CF has a maximum value of 10.
Chieftain 20
Warlord 12
Regent 10
Monarch 9
Emperor 8
Demi God 7
Deity 6
Sid 4

COST = technology cost as on the civilization advances tab in the editor.

N = number of civs on the diplomacy screen that have discovered the tech.

CL = number of civs left in the game

There is only one part of the formula that varies during the game: (1 - N/[CL*1.75]).

 

[Moosezilla]

I'm wondering about discussion of tech costs. Somehow if you find that you are not having to pay too much, you find you have the "wall" of minimal # of turns. To me if you are going to change costs (up or down) you might consider turns too. I know that you are trying to have time line match with historical tech but... perhaps add a few non essential techs to the mix and min to 3 turns?

 

[Civinator]

vmxa, thank you very much for explaining the formula above.

As in CCM there is no settling on desert- and tundra terrain and techtrade-restrictions in era 3 and 4, I subtract a little bit from the 650 tech rate and do some testing with a tech rate of 600 for the biggest map (260 x 240). I will see how this fits in the game.

 

[vmxa]

Engine issue with CCM. I ran into this last night, game locked. It happened that the boss lady worked till 1030PM. I was all set to finish the last Incan town and stop.

I saved and went out to get my ration of whining, I mean conversation. I came back and took the last town. The game was spinning and up pops a Win7 msg saying the game is not responding.

Like an idiot I tried again and got the same thing. I tossed in the towel and figured that game was toast.

I got up this morning and recalled in XP I could sometime have the game run for a long time on massive maps and the Task Manager would say it was not responding. It in fact would be and would eventually finish.


I tied to run again and not close, but the game did not finish and I had to kill it. I was pretty sure I knew what the issue was, so I tried another tactic.

I knew they had a settler some place, but I cannot use espionage to find out. (This should be put back, just like comm. Allow it in the last age some place early in the tree of the 4th era.)

So I stole a few maps and low and behold, I see a lone Incan galleon. It had Chinese war ships near it. I bribe China into my war and they sink it. I had held off attacking the last town, this time.

Now when I take it on the next turn, all is well. If I had not been able to get rid of the settler, I would not have been able to take out the last town or the game would have been dead.

 

[vmxa]

I'm wondering about discussion of tech costs. Somehow if you find that you are not having to pay too much, you find you have the "wall" of minimal # of turns. To me if you are going to change costs (up or down) you might consider turns too. I know that you are trying to have time line match with historical tech but... perhaps add a few non essential techs to the mix and min to 3 turns?

I am not sure what is the optimal way to go, but it seems that 650 or close to it, is a solid number. If the designer was to use another number for some reason, then we all will see how it goes.

If it is made too low and 450 maybe be too low, then the techs rolls in too quickly. If it made too large, then the game ends and you can never get through all the ages.

I would need some real good tests to not use some where around 650 as it has been used in a lot of games. Greebly got the number form the LK series on LK's large map.

I have also played on that map and the pace seems about right. Not saying it is the magic number, just that it is a number that has been tested a great deal.

 

[Graceheart the Leopard]

I can't get my Enslavers to attack cities. Why can't I?

 

[Moosezilla]

Because hidden nationality units can't attack cities unless at war or you are AI. Firaxis source code.

 

[Civinator]

I knew they had a settler some place, but I cannot use espionage to find out. (This should be put back, just like comm. Allow it in the last age some place early in the tree of the 4th era.)

So I stole a few maps and low and behold, I see a lone Incan galleon. It had Chinese war ships near it. I bribe China into my war and they sink it. I had held off attacking the last town, this time.

Now when I take it on the next turn, all is well. If I had not been able to get rid of the settler, I would not have been able to take out the last town or the game would have been dead.

These are the situations why I say CCM is not stabile yet. The AI has pathfinding errors. Can you please post a save file short before the freeze?

 

[vmxa]

Too late, but I would not be surprised to see it again. All it needs is a settler out and about as you take out the last town. Someone else may even run into as we have no real means to know, if they have a settler, before we strike.

At this stage of the game, I would have researchd or stolen Espionage and planted a spy. I would then at least I would know they had a settler from the F3 screen. That is not an issue normally and I would eventually track them down. In fact they would probably not be able to find a spot to build in a map of 160x160 or less.

Even a 250 would not be likely to found a new town as we would be at the city limit long ago. In that scenario, they would not even build a settler. What could you do with a save? Do you have some access to the code? Like a disassembler.

Anyway I am about to run down two more nations, so I may get it again. I will try to remember to post it.

 

[Civinator]

There was a similar situation in the CCM prebetatesting. And also here no save file did exist. If it was a settler, I´m wondering what triggers that situation. In CCM autoproduced settlers don´t have population points...

 

[tom2050]

I based these as well on Conquests tech rates given... fall within line to theirs. Rates are within a range of +-10 or 20 depending on preference. These fall in pretty close to vxma's recommendation.

NOTE: Of course this depends on what the actual TECH costs are! Lower values are fine if the tech cost's themselves are higher. For instance, in CoMM3, the tech rate is 999, but tech's are ultra cheap. This does mostly the same thing as having tech rate 100, with tech's themselves costing much more.

If your tech costs themselves are similar to how Conquests tech costs were, then this is good to go by. I find tech rate is perfectly fine on Huge map for 1st era, in 2nd era I can hit tech every 4 turns, so this is too quick. No time to use the units you get. All wonders get built too fast. Making tech research slower probably requires you to extend the length of game (set at 500 now).

Size - Tech Rate - Num of Players - tech rate according to Conquests

100x100 - 280 - 8 (drop to 240) I have not played Tiny map, so don't know how research goes with it.
160x160 - 320 - 16 (raise to 400)
226x226 - 380 - 24 (around 572)
240x220 - 450 - 31 (around 620)
260x240 - 450 - 31 (around 640-650)

Size - Conquests - Num of Players

60x60 - 160 - 4
80x80 - 200 - 6
100x100 - 240 - 8
130x130 - 320 - 12
160x160 - 400 - 16

Tom

 

[vmxa]

There was a similar situation in the CCM prebetatesting. And also here no save file did exist. If it was a settler, I´m wondering what triggers that situation. In CCM autoproduced settlers don´t have population points...

That is probably the issue. They were on an island and had no place to plant a town. They were backward due to low number of towns and probably low contact. I would bet they did not have the tech to make settlers at that point.

The Carthage island is even smaller and they have 2 or 3 towns only. All tundra, talk about so cold... Japan is on an island about the size of the Incan island. Everyone else should not be locked out.

 

[tom2050]

Here is a possible reason why the game freezes in a situation like that (just an idea here, I don't know though):

If all of a civilization's towns are destroyed / or taken... that civ's is defeated and all units wiped off the map; there is only 1 circumstance that this is not the case.
- If the civilization still has a settler elsewhere (with no towns), the civ is not defeated, and all units will not disappear from the map. The civilization can still exist since it can found a new city (just like in the beginning of the game).

It is possible that, if the civilization has nowhere to found a new city, this could cause a freeze (AI gets stuck in a loop because it does not no where to go?); OR if there is a place a civilization can found a city, but does not have access to that location (impassible mountains, etc), that could possibly cause a freeze.

Settlers with no population points could cause the problem also, but that is also unknown (I would not think so, but who knows?)

Tom

 

[vmxa]

The std game does not freeze, when no site is availble. At the start on a single tile map, they die. In the midst of the game, you can have a ship with a settler sit forever, if no site. (Not like Homm, huh. You have till Sunday.)

I have had this in epic games and in PBEM all human players. It took about 100 turns in mid game to locate a solo boat of a human player as we did not have planes. All land was held. In epic games, it does not take that long as the AI will normally park the boat some place and you can find it.

I would bet it is the lack of pop points.

 

[tom2050]

Alright, test game on Deity; I am almost in 2nd age, and although I am behind in tech's (not by a huge amount though), some civ's have Arqubruisers, which I am 4 techs back (EDIT: 8-10+ techs back ). But I am still in 3rd place in Power; and doing fairly well in Demographics with most all places being 4 through 10 out of all 31 civs.

In fact, out of my 8 immediate neighbors, I am Strong Military to 6, and Weak to 2 of them. The same thing goes for overall. Probably weak because I have been building infrastructure for the last 15 turns after taking out Spain. I have 3rd largest empire (I was first, so someone is taking cities fast from war).

This is absolutely insane that I am doing this good on Deity... I don't know if it is because of the defenders?? or what... but normally I get slaughtered on Deity in regular C3C games.

I am so confident in fact... once my building overhaul is completed, I am producing straight Cavalry units, and will completely run my Mayan neighbor into the ground (they have lots of Elephants, but I have destroyed every last one of their workers with my Enslavers; and I wait at the city that auto-produces them and kill them right there, and I do the same with their settlers; they have no ability to settle or improve terrain at all.)

My Enslavers are spreading to do the same to other neighboring civ's.

EDIT: Many wars are started in early game due to the fact that AI ships limited to coast, will 'plow through' other ships on the coast if they can't get around any other way (probably a similar situation to the sub-bug). I've seen it 3 times now, once to me

Tom

 

[vmxa]

SU-100 pedia says it upgrades to self propell artillery, but I am not able to do it. The SU-76 does though.

 

[ThERat]

I can confirm that I did have a freeze the way vxma had with elimination of a Civ, but a settler around.
Hope this can get settled

 

[vmxa]

I can state it is not the settler with pop points. I took out Canada and they had a settler out and I did not hang. When I finally found it, it was a NorthAmero settler and the editor says it is pop point 1.

So I would suspect the AI does not fail to upgrade Clan units, that means it has to be the Egyptian Settler. It is the only one I found other than the Clan with 0 pop points.