Central Europe vs Eastern Europe

[C~G]

I'll try to answer... but, you have to be a pole or a czech or a something else to understand...

That is BS argument.

If the argument is rational with enough information, explanation and facts you don't need to be anything.

That is the argument of the ignorant for the "ignorant", and I find it either insulting or amusing. This time around simply laughable. Reminds me of another thread...

First of all, let's start of with history....

Historically, we were always called Central European, all the way to 1946. Culturally, we were always central European even today, religiously, we are catholic, like the rest of central europe(excluing parts of germany) We use the Roman Alphabet, like the rest of Central Europe, and i could go on and on...

First part of the message makes no sense since Poland was once with Lithuania kind of important nation, no?

And you have ties to the east as well as to the west, no?

Now to why the term is offensive to us.

I know exactly why you are offended but my point is why you don't need to be.

First of all, you are calling us what we are not. It's like calling a greek, a turk and vice versa. But simple mistakes could happen all the time, but this is the reason why it is offensive:

You mean you're offended if I call you western european?

It associates us with being dirt poor, backwards, communist, inferior, and MUCH much more. This is where you get it wrong. I'm not saying the Eastern Europeans of today, are dirt poor or anything, but i'm saying that it refers to a point of our history, where arguably, we were eastern european, and we were dirt poor. (IE 1946-1989). This has nothing to do with Russia or the modern day Eastern Europe.

I hope you understand now.

Yes, you have inferiority complex and don't want to be associated with rest of the Eastern Europe or with the russians.

Which was the point originally when asking this question. Thanks for answering it just the way I expected it to be answered.

Guess what, some people see you still part of that Eastern Europe (by the same fact you described why you hate the association) and also there are very good other reasons to consider Poland being in more of Eastern Europe (especially when disregarding the whole term "Central Europe" and in other times as well) so what you should learn is to cope with it rather than get your nickers twisted with it.

And to the point of that I cannot understand because I'm not czech or pole. Well, Finland has EXACTLY same kind of people who probably would call Poland to be Eastern Europe (Since they were part of Soviet Block and could be still bit "backward" etc.) while at the same time for them Finland of course cannot be part of Eastern Europe and they see it as similar kind of insult. In other words these people feel they are guilty, poor and backward because of assosication with something they don't themselves like or consider being just those (eastern europeans, russians, soviets, whatever). Which is most disturbing about this all is to see how much hatred and disgust there is towards anything that is "eastern" (=Russia?) and quite often there's clear denial towards once own history and own culture. That is sickening.

All I can say: Get over it and be proud of yourself. Geez...

 

[Mise]

This is lovely. How many times do I have to prove, that for historical, cultural, political and economic reasons we're not Eastern but Central Europe? Who's is in denial of what, because from my point of view the W. Europeans on this forum are totally in denial. It's rather funny, because I've seen people on other forums, arguably more educated than average CFCers, using the right term, and even some WE media have finally realized what's right. As for you brits, even Churchill talked about Central and Eastern Europe. But sure you all know better now

lol... here you go, talking about history.

Why are you in the EU anyway? Do you even care about it? Do you care about our common values and identity? Do you care about striving for a better Europe?

Because you don't seem to care one bit. All you care about is being considered "Central", and therefore on par with Germany. Such a conceited POV has no place in a modern, liberal Europe. Your professed "love" for the EU is based on a desire to NOT be considered a backward nation; but you just can't let it go, you just can't put your past behind you, and shrug this giant chip off your shoulder (you should look this expression up, if you don't understand it).

It's not about modern values or anything you say, that's totally off-topic here.

You pretty much summed up exactly why you are in denial.

I don't understand this idiom and I don't really care.

The fact is that there is an attitude in Western Europe, that the new EU members are either

1) not commited to the EU enough
or
2) they're not in position to act as full members

From this stems the belief that "they're getting our development money so they should shut up and follow our every decision" - any signs that they want to promote their own interests (like any other EU country) is seen as a sign of their "Eastern mentality" or "backwardness" or "hyper-nationalism" or "too much pro-Americanism" or "anti-russian grudge" or simply "ingratitude".

If anything plagues the relationship between the old and new member countries, it's this. Unfortunately it has also the personal dimension I see on this forum: when a Brit or American has an untraditional or non-mainstream opinion on something, nobody tells him "you're not Western/your people are backwards", nah, people deal with him as an individual.

Anyway, this thread has degenerated into a complete craziness, I should have realized that such a thread would only attract trolls. I am through with it.

If you read my posts, you'd realise that I'm not one of them. It's clear that the idiom is not the only thing you don't understand.

 

[Mise]

Yes, you have inferiority complex and don't want to be associated with rest of the Eastern Europe or with the russians.

Get over it and be proud of yourself.

EXACTLY!!!

Great post C~G.

 

[TheLastOne36]

I'm surprised as to why Mise thinks this is a great post.

That is BS argument.

If the argument is rational with enough information, explanation and facts you don't need to be anything.

That is the argument of the ignorant for the "ignorant", and I find it either insulting or amusing. This time around simply laughable. Reminds me of another thread...

Fine whatever... >.<

First part of the message makes no sense since Poland was once with Lithuania kind of important nation, no?

And you have ties to the east as well as to the west, no?

You do not know the topic very well, and i can tell just by reading.

Yes, we saved the Lithuanians, and we christanized them, their weren't much lithuanians though, after about 50 years, poles outpopulated lithuanians atleast 4-1 in former lithuania. Yes our titile was the "Polish-Lithuaniain Commonweath" but it was more like poles+some minority groups and lithuaniain land to the east. Yes Poland did have cultural ties with Lithuania, but after the partitions, the russians did so much to Lithuania, and after WWII when all the poles got deported to Silesia and Gdansk, and the russians "colonized" lithuania, Lithuania changed so much, it is hard to say that modern day lithuania is close to Poland.

Yes, Renaissaince Lithuania was culturally close to Poland, but not modern Lithuania. I wouldn't call modern Lithuania a "tie with the east"

I know exactly why you are offended but my point is why you don't need to be.
You mean you're offended if I call you western european?

No i wouldn't(as much), using the greek example, i think a greek would be more offended if i called him a turk rather then an italian.

Yes, you have inferiority complex and don't want to be associated with rest of the Eastern Europe or with the russians.

Read my post again. I said, IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE RUSSIANS.
It has to do with us associating ourselves with our darkest hour, and that we will never come out of it.

Which was the point originally when asking this question. Thanks for answering it just the way I expected it to be answered.

Guess what, some people see you still part of that Eastern Europe (by the same fact you described why you hate the association) and also there are very good other reasons to consider Poland being in more of Eastern Europe (especially when disregarding the whole term "Central Europe" and in other times as well) so what you should learn is to cope with it rather than get your nickers twisted with it.

Fine, we are still not on par with Western Europe economically, and we are still developing. But we are not on par with Belarus, Lithuania or Ukraine either. We are above par to them economically. Well i agree, that if there is no central europe, we'd probably be in eastern europe then, but there is a central europe, and we are in it.

And to the point of that I cannot understand because I'm not czech or pole. Well, Finland has EXACTLY same kind of people who probably would call Poland to be Eastern Europe (Since they were part of Soviet Block and could be still bit "backward" etc.) while at the same time for them Finland of course cannot be part of Eastern Europe and they see it as similar kind of insult. In other words these people feel they are guilty, poor and backward because of assosication with something they don't themselves like or consider being just those (eastern europeans, russians, soviets, whatever). Which is most disturbing about this all is to see how much hatred and disgust there is towards anything that is "eastern" (=Russia?) and quite often there's clear denial towards once own history and own culture. That is sickening.

Let's say there is no central, southern or northern europe, just east or west. Is Finland in East or West Europe?

All I can say: Get over it and be proud of yourself. Geez...

Proud of our darkest hour? Hard to be.

 

[TheLastOne36]

Because you don't seem to care one bit. All you care about is being considered "Central", and therefore on par with Germany. Such a conceited POV has no place in a modern, liberal Europe. Your professed "love" for the EU is based on a desire to NOT be considered a backward nation; but you just can't let it go, you just can't put your past behind you, and shrug this giant chip off your shoulder (you should look this expression up, if you don't understand it).

We won't be on par with germany economically any time soon. But us and germany have a central european culture.

 

[RedRalph]

Really, the entire reason you don't want to be called Eastern European is so you don't have to associate with Russia.

thats it, fundamentally. Hatred of Russia is the real reason, and everyone know it.

 

[Mise]

We won't be on par with germany economically any time soon. But us and germany have a central european culture.

My point is that you focus on culture in order to distance yourselves from your more recent history - yet it is your "dark" past -- your "darkest hour" -- that you constantly keep bringing up!

C~G's post was great, because he asked you to be proud of yourselves. ALL countries have skeletons in their closets, and yet ALL countries can be proud of their national identity. If you attempt to distance yourself from Eastern Europe, you bring attention to your "darkest hour", and ensure that no-one ever forgets it and moves on. You have to move on yourselves, and start associating Poland with modern values, not historic cultural ties.

You can't just arbitrarily ignore your recent history, because it's convenient to your argument. If you want to talk about history, you have to talk about ALL your history -- and you have to learn to be proud of it, because it's the only history you have.

Either that, or focus on what Poland is today - an EU member, with EU values.

 

[Japanrocks12]

It has to do with us associating ourselves with our darkest hour, and that we will never come out of it.


Let's say there is no central, southern or northern europe, just east or west. Is Finland in East or West Europe?


Proud of our darkest hour? Hard to be.

if you have any shard of "care" for your country, you will acknowledge your darkest hour and thank yourself for emerging out of it. You will also thank whatever caused you to plunge into that "darkest hour" for testing your country's resolve.

But, that doesn't seem to apply to you. No matter how you explain it, it's painfully obvious that you just hate being associated with the Communist Eastern bloc (an antiquated thing btw). In your case, it's just an inferiority complex.

That all aside, this is a forum for making arguments. If you want to argue effectively here, you're supposed to dissociate yourself from any emotions that you might feel during the course of the argument. If you feel that you're geographically and culturally not in Eastern Europe, just say that and move on. This insult is just a construct that you made up to sustain your disdain for what you consider to be a shameful past (you don't actually need it, people referring to your country as EE probably are thinking in geographical or cultural terms, and are probably not seeking to associate your country with the spectre of communism)

 

[Mise]

I dare say that Germany's darkest hour was 100x worse than Poland's... Ireland has a pretty grim recent history, too.

Britain's history, of course, has always been spotless

 

[TheLastOne36]

thats it, fundamentally. Hatred of Russia is the real reason, and everyone know it.

Did you read my last 2 posts? It has nothing to do with Russia.

Atleast Mise get's it.

My point is that you focus on culture in order to distance yourselves from your more recent history - yet it is your "dark" past -- your "darkest hour" -- that you constantly keep bringing up!

C~G's post was great, because he asked you to be proud of yourselves. ALL countries have skeletons in their closets, and yet ALL countries can be proud of their national identity. If you attempt to distance yourself from Eastern Europe, you bring attention to your "darkest hour", and ensure that no-one ever forgets it and moves on. You have to move on yourselves, and start associating Poland with modern values, not historic cultural ties.

You can't just arbitrarily ignore your recent history, because it's convenient to your argument. If you want to talk about history, you have to talk about ALL your history -- and you have to learn to be proud of it, because it's the only history you have.

Either that, or focus on what Poland is today - an EU member, with EU values.

I understand where you are coming from now, and i have to agree with you.

Actually that gave me a little inspiration.. Hell with the commie times, Poland is Jan Sobieski's ride to Vienna, Poland is chopin, Poland is Awesome, and nothing can stop that! Not even being called eastern european because we know we are central european and i don't give a **** about what you say!

 

[nonconformist]

TheLastOne, you keep on asking us to not refer to Poland as beig East, but you're asking us to use euphamisms for the sake of Political Correctness.
Maybe yes, Poland is not proud of its past, but to change fact because of it, and to ignore or try to forget it, only condemns it to happen again.
Poland, in recent history, has ony existed as an independent nationstate very briefly; 1919-1939 and 1991 onwards. To completely ignore such a large chunk of Polish history, which defies and explains Poland as a modern country woud be to dismiss Poland as a country altogether.

People refer to Poland etc. as "Eastern European" because:
a)Location; to the east of the centre of europe
b)history before 1848
c)Cold war alignment and status

and pretty much everyone feels that Poland fulfills the criteria to be considewred "Eastern European", not as an insult or as a way of denigrating it, but as a way of describing Poland.
Otherwise, you might as well call Poland a "Clown State". What's its meaning? There is no meaning, but to attribute such blatently false monikers to country just completely defiles and remove any meaning from terms such as "Cental European".
If Eastern Staes do call themselves thus, you wil lfind soon that Germany will be considered a "Western European" state, and "Central European" will become a euphamism for "Eastern European state not willing to face up to its history".

Sure, communist rule was bad for Poland, but one of the fundamental things Western Europe has in common is a general ability and desire to confront its black past; Germany doesn't deny WWII, England doesn't deny its bloody colonial past, nor France etc.
Poland needs to face up to these matters, and not try to sweep them under the carpet.

 

[TheLastOne36]

People refer to Poland etc. as "Eastern European" because:
a)Location; to the east of the centre of europe we are directly in the center. the line goes through us. See this article on Wiki.
b)history before 1848 before then we were central europe
c)Cold war alignment and status yah yah...

This is more of a "discussion" post rather then a "Poland is in Central Europe" post.

 

[Heretic_Cata]

This thread is taking a turn toward being masochistic. It's almost sad now.

 

[nonconformist]

This is more of a "discussion" post rather then a "Poland is in Central Europe" post.

Could you please please not reply in quotes? It makes it almost impossible to answer points.

Poland was in central Europe prior to 1848? According to whom?
Remember also that parts of Garmany were within Poland.

Are we to dismiss everything post 1900s? Evn though that is possibly the most important period in history for Europe?

 

[TheLastOne36]

Could you please please not reply in quotes? It makes it almost impossible to answer points.

Poland was in central Europe prior to 1848? According to whom?
Remember also that parts of Garmany were within Poland.

Are we to dismiss everything post 1900s? Evn though that is possibly the most important period in history for Europe?

1. by everyone >.< Even the people from Rome in the 900's though of us as Central European
2. you brought up pre-1848.

 

[C~G]

I'm surprised as to why Mise thinks this is a great post.

Maybe because you cannot counter it?
Or more precisely because about the "being proud"-part.

You do not know the topic very well, and i can tell just by reading.

Oh, how convincing. If I would be cocky I could bet I know more than you do about the subject and I don't even live in Poland...but it might hurt your feelings.

Yes, we saved the Lithuanians, and we christanized them, their weren't much lithuanians though, after about 50 years, poles outpopulated lithuanians atleast 4-1 in former lithuania. Yes our titile was the "Polish-Lithuaniain Commonweath" but it was more like poles+some minority groups and lithuaniain land to the east. Yes Poland did have cultural ties with Lithuania, but after the partitions, the russians did so much to Lithuania, and after WWII when all the poles got deported to Silesia and Gdansk, and the russians "colonized" lithuania, Lithuania changed so much, it is hard to say that modern day lithuania is close to Poland.

You "saved" the lithuanians? Like the soviets saved Poland?

You still have ties to the east in the past and most probably will always have. And if your country "takes credit" for it being such fine nation and example someone tries to make Poland appear as Civilization in a computer game just because of that...how you could deny that modern Poland has been part of such grand nation once which certainly lied in the east?

Or is it that like so many times with Nationalism you take only the good parts of the history and try to black out those "bad parts" (which weren't even exactly your fault since you couldn't resist the soviets. ) example any relations to the East (again WTH is wrong with east?)

Yes, Renaissaince Lithuania was culturally close to Poland, but not modern Lithuania. I wouldn't call modern Lithuania a "tie with the east"

You don't think Lithuania is in the east by european standards?

So what exactly is in the East (or in the Eastern Europe) in your view? Only Russia and it's old most closest former vassal states?

No i wouldn't(as much), using the greek example, i think a greek would be more offended if i called him a turk rather then an italian.

Thank you for proving my point.

You seem to hate Eastern Europe as much as Greeks hate association with the Turks.

Tell me something I don't yet know.

Read my post again. I said, IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE RUSSIANS.
It has to do with us associating ourselves with our darkest hour, and that we will never come out of it.

But you did!

You came out of it.

Then again it should be noted that many finns hate that they were once allied with the Germans and attacked with them to Soviet Union. So in every places Nazi Germany is mentioned, Finland is made to look like it was really never allied with germans but just fighting their own war. Ok, some points of that can be debated but it's outrageous to claim Finland was somehow above everything Germany did. Especially since finns volunteered for SS division for God's sake. Of course to fight the soviets, but still...

Denial of one's history where you only bath in the shining ligth of your Finest Hour (Winter War for the Finns) and forget the Darkest Hour (probably Continuation War and attack to Soviet Union or collaboration with Soviets after the war), is just not the way to go.

Sure it takes time to heal but how many years it's been since Soviet Union fell again?

Do you think anyone else will treat you any better if you just forget some parts of your history. Hell, people even here are mocking you out of this fact that you're in denial or almost feel pity since you have problems of admitting WHO YOU ULTIMATELY ARE.

Fine, we are still not on par with Western Europe economically, and we are still developing. But we are not on par with Belarus, Lithuania or Ukraine either. We are above par to them economically. Well i agree, that if there is no central europe, we'd probably be in eastern europe then, but there is a central europe, and we are in it.

Where does this mythological "central europe" really exist?

Those all "europes" are theoretical designs depending of view point and like I said what kind of approach we take. Even the wiki page mentions different ways to see where central Europe are. You should check also the geography part of that article.

I'm not sure you mean "par with *place any eastern european country by the opinion of some polish people* economically" only but also "par in other ways".

Let's say there is no central, southern or northern europe, just east or west. Is Finland in East or West Europe?

It depends of definition. Geographically Finland is pretty much in the East if only those are the options. By values of democracy and such we're with Nordic countries which is high even by western european countries so I guess points towards the West. I consider Finland being more to the North than to the East, mainly relating to cultural and geographical reasons. And yes it's freaking cold in here and also we might be pretty backward place if you take good look of it.

Maybe you should be proud of being in the north with such countries as Finland (instead of being in South like Italy) and such instead of trying to move your country further to the west.

We might have lot of common with western nations but then again Finland has often been a port between east and west, example lot's of finn-ugrian people live in Russia.

Proud of our darkest hour? Hard to be.

Your darkest hour?
Was it really your darkest hour?

If you survived communism (at least some of you did) wouldn't it make it all different to victims of that period if you can really be proud of that fact such thing was present in your history but still were able to be what you are now?

It is exactly same sh1t that goes on in Finland. Some people want to accuse some people of being favouring soviets (even though that was pretty much the best option there was) or want to forget there was ever period Finland might have had ties with Russia.

But thing is Finland will always have ties with Russia and with the east. There's no denying of it and better yet it just makes us what we are and ultimately much stronger than pitying some parts of ourselves.

You should do the same.

Not even being called eastern european because we know we are central european and i don't give a **** about what you say!

Self-denial is the ultimate refugee camp of the incompetent.

 

[Grimz101]

I love how people point out Poland is economically stronger then other eastern countries, to seperate themself from these eastern countries, then try to say they are in central Europe with Germany, when Germany is economically strongest in Europe

 

[TheLastOne36]

You "saved" the lithuanians? Like the soviets saved Poland?

And your claiming you know more then me.

Read about the Teutonic knights.

You still have ties to the east in the past and most probably will always have. And if your country "takes credit" for it being such fine nation and example someone tries to make Poland appear as Civilization in a computer game just because of that...how you could deny that modern Poland has been part of such grand nation once which certainly lied in the east?

What east? Lithuani is a whol different story. Check the european map thread. People are claiming that Lithuania is either in nordic europe, or central europe. Yes the Lithuanian lands were farther east of poland. Everyone knows that. What is your point?

Or is it that like so many times with Nationalism you take only the good parts of the history and try to black out those "bad parts" (which weren't even exactly your fault since you couldn't resist the soviets. ) example any relations to the East (again WTH is wrong with east?)

Nothing is wrong with the east. For us, we are central europeans, and you could say we were eastern europeans during the commie times. But for us, calling us Eastern European, is like saying, oh your still in the communist times. Yes we all know that you think we are in Eastern europe, but we, will continue thinking we are in central europe, like we have been for the millenia before 1946. So the result is, calling us eastern european makes us think, eastern european? they must be reffering to 1946-1989. And that is when the problem appears.

You don't think Lithuania is in the east by european standards?

So what exactly is in the East (or in the Eastern Europe) in your view? Only Russia and it's old most closest former vassal states?

Yah pretty much.

I think Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia are Eastern European, as well as perhaps (geographically) the eastern bit of poland(shouldn't it be the other way around though with the belarussian and lithuanian border minorities to us) and Moldova and parts of northeastern Romania and i guess Kazakhstan.

Thank you for proving my point.

You seem to hate Eastern Europe as much as Greeks hate association with the Turks.

Tell me something I don't yet know.

That wasn't my point. Greece is culturally closer to Italy then to turkey. Poland is culturally closer to Germany then to Russia. That was my point.

Then again it should be noted that many finns hate that they were once allied with the Germans and attacked with them to Soviet Union. So in every places Nazi Germany is mentioned, Finland is made to look like it was really never allied with germans but just fighting their own war. Ok, some points of that can be debated but it's outrageous to claim Finland was somehow above everything Germany did. Especially since finns volunteered for SS division for God's sake. Of course to fight the soviets, but still...

BtW, why didn't Finland become communist? I asked my best friend(who happens to be finnish) and he doesn't know himself.

Denial of one's history where you only bath in the shining ligth of your Finest Hour (Winter War for the Finns) and forget the Darkest Hour (probably Continuation War and attack to Soviet Union or collaboration with Soviets after the war), is just not the way to go.

How long was Finlands darkest hour compared to Polands? Is Finland fighting over a name because of it?

Sure it takes time to heal but how many years it's been since Soviet Union fell again?

Exactly! And that is why you people whould be using the term "Central European" Again.

Do you think anyone else will treat you any better if you just forget some parts of your history. Hell, people even here are mocking you out of this fact that you're in denial or almost feel pity since you have problems of admitting WHO YOU ULTIMATELY ARE.

People are claiming i'm a Catholic Russian, don't you think i have the right to fight back? I'm not denying anypart of my history, it is people like you who are denying over a 1000 years of my history!

Where does this mythological "central europe" really exist?

Those all "europes" are theoretical designs depending of view point and like I said what kind of approach we take. Even the wiki page mentions different ways to see where central Europe are. You should check also the geography part of that article.

I'm not sure you mean "par with *place any eastern european country by the opinion of some polish people* economically" only but also "par in other ways".

This real central europe is a cultural europe. Just like how Nordic europe is. And i mean economically, i'm not racist, (but people here seem to think i'm racist towards eastern europeans?)

It depends of definition. Geographically Finland is pretty much in the East if only those are the options. By values of democracy and such we're with Nordic countries which is high even by western european countries so I guess points towards the West. I consider Finland being more to the North than to the East, mainly relating to cultural and geographical reasons. And yes it's freaking cold in here and also we might be pretty backward place if you take good look of it.

Good to know. I've seen people claim that Greece and Finland are geographically western European.

Maybe you should be proud of being in the north with such countries as Finland (instead of being in South like Italy) and such instead of trying to move your country further to the west.

How about a baltic union?

but the same applies to us. We are proud to be central euorpea with such countries like Austria and Germany, but we are in central europe, so no need to move.

Your darkest hour?
Was it really your darkest hour?

If you survived communism (at least some of you did) wouldn't it make it all different to victims of that period if you can really be proud of that fact such thing was present in your history but still were able to be what you are now?

What other period can be darker? our partitioned years? well with a revolt every decade it was more of a "Let's hope we get free this time!" hour.

it takes years to forget communism. Maybe the new generation poles of 20 years from now won't even mind being called eastern european and just find it a simple foreign mistake, (but hopefully it'll be the other way around and people call us the right term "central european").

It is exactly same sh1t that goes on in Finland. Some people want to accuse some people of being favouring soviets (even though that was pretty much the best option there was) or want to forget there was ever period Finland might have had ties with Russia.

If Finland was actually communist, it would've been a different story. People would be calling Finland Eastern Europe instead of Northern Europe.

But thing is Finland will always have ties with Russia and with the east. There's no denying of it and better yet it just makes us what we are and ultimately much stronger than pitying some parts of ourselves.

other then that one scratch in the second half of the last century, Poland has been pretty clean with the ties with russia.

Self-denial is the ultimate refugee camp of the incompetent.

Strange quote. You quoted me and it sounded more like an insult then an actually comment!

 

[TheLastOne36]

I love how people point out Poland is economically stronger then other eastern countries, to seperate themself from these eastern countries, then try to say they are in central Europe with Germany, when Germany is economically strongest in Europe

I admit that does sound kinda strange...

Germany comes in culturally though, not economically.

 

[Gooblah]

What is so bad about being called Eastern European?! By denying that you are, you're perpetuating the stereotype of a Communist, godless, Russia-controlled, autocratic, poor area where people are oppressed. By accepting that you are Eastern European, you're letting European idiots know that Eastern Europe is, in some cases, just as good or better than Western Europe (for example; Estonia versus Italy)!

The entire world sees you as Eastern European. It's not bad. It's just a fact.