Agree completely with the above. Regular chariots are fine, but war chariots are too similar to knights from a gameplay perspective, and just silly from a historical/lore perspective. Mounted units need a second national unit that's well differentiated from knights gameplay-wise (and, please, NOT a unit that was obsolete for thousands of years by the time knights were around). A new horse archer unit would do well, perhaps they could have lower strength but get terrain defensive bonuses - or higher base strength, but not benefit from weapon upgrades - and/or bonus vs. melee units (historically infantry had a difficult time with horse archers that could ride away while firing back at them, the infamous "parthian shot") - and/or much higher withdrawal chance. Really, anything that makes them significantly different but not always better than knights.
Chariots: Cut or Keep?
- Thread starter Kael
- Start date
Agree completely with the above. Regular chariots are fine, but war chariots are too similar to knights from a gameplay perspective, and just silly from a historical/lore perspective. Mounted units need a second national unit that's well differentiated from knights gameplay-wise (and, please, NOT a unit that was obsolete for thousands of years by the time knights were around). A new horse archer unit would do well, perhaps they could have lower strength but get terrain defensive bonuses - or higher base strength, but not benefit from weapon upgrades - and/or bonus vs. melee units (historically infantry had a difficult time with horse archers that could ride away while firing back at them, the infamous "parthian shot") - and/or much higher withdrawal chance. Really, anything that makes them significantly different but not always better than knights.
Merddyn
Scholar of the Arcane
I don't care one way or another; I just think Kael's crazy.
Not the bad kind, mind you.
Not the bad kind, mind you.
Fafnir13
King
Keep them. Why would you cut them? The provide the mobility of mounted units but with the beefiness of the iron tree. I only started to use them recently. I dunno why. Maybe I just never built siege workshops before cause I didn't like catapults so much. It would be a darn shame to lose them after only just getting to know them. War chariots too. They are a fiendishly powerful unit that really helps me get to serious city breaking when I don't have easy access to direct damage.
Anyways, I'm a little disappointed in the cuts I've seen recently in the game. This isn't some for-profit game that needs to keep a schedule or you'll all lose tons of money and jobs. I understand that you want to get done with this great endeavor that you've given years of your life to. I would to. But if you get into the mindset of just getting "done" your missing out on making the truly finished product. I could make a list of things that stick out to me as needing true completion, but that would be a completely different thread.
Again, thanks for all your hard work. This is the best strategy game I've ever had the joy of playing. I hope it continues to improve and grow during this last phase.
Anyways, I'm a little disappointed in the cuts I've seen recently in the game. This isn't some for-profit game that needs to keep a schedule or you'll all lose tons of money and jobs. I understand that you want to get done with this great endeavor that you've given years of your life to. I would to. But if you get into the mindset of just getting "done" your missing out on making the truly finished product. I could make a list of things that stick out to me as needing true completion, but that would be a completely different thread.
Again, thanks for all your hard work. This is the best strategy game I've ever had the joy of playing. I hope it continues to improve and grow during this last phase.
Yashkaf
King of my Castle
If you noticed, the melee line aactually has 3 NU upgrades: berserkers, immortals and phalanx. The mounted line should also have two options, and the chariots are already a bit different by having high attack/low defense. You can make the distinction even greater by, for example:
a. Making them a bit stronger on attack, and with collateral damage.
b. Removing withdrawal chance.
c. Having them get negative terrain defensive bonus, i.e. -25% on hills, -50% on a forested hill, but +25% on a flat desert tile.
This would make for interesting tactics, as chariots will be a viable option for a main attack force (right now only the Hippus attack cities with anything other than axemen/champions) but make them hard to defend in enemy territory (either bring a lot of guerilla archers and jump from hill to hill where the chariots are vulnerable, or let them handle themselves in the flat). Also, the defenders would really need to go out and intercept them, rather than just pumping out a ton of CD3 archers.
What I'm basically saying, is that right now every conquering war is CR3 melee vs. CD3 archers (running backs vs. defensive ends, boooring). The chariots with a few tweaks can make it different. The other mounted line should keep the high withdrawal rate, and thus be effective in intercepting chariots on defense (wide receivers vs. cornerbacks).
a. Making them a bit stronger on attack, and with collateral damage.
b. Removing withdrawal chance.
c. Having them get negative terrain defensive bonus, i.e. -25% on hills, -50% on a forested hill, but +25% on a flat desert tile.
This would make for interesting tactics, as chariots will be a viable option for a main attack force (right now only the Hippus attack cities with anything other than axemen/champions) but make them hard to defend in enemy territory (either bring a lot of guerilla archers and jump from hill to hill where the chariots are vulnerable, or let them handle themselves in the flat). Also, the defenders would really need to go out and intercept them, rather than just pumping out a ton of CD3 archers.
What I'm basically saying, is that right now every conquering war is CR3 melee vs. CD3 archers (running backs vs. defensive ends, boooring). The chariots with a few tweaks can make it different. The other mounted line should keep the high withdrawal rate, and thus be effective in intercepting chariots on defense (wide receivers vs. cornerbacks).
Chariots don't need flatland bonus. They need a high base strength but penalties in rough terrain and cities. Further, the other branch of mounted line needs access to weapon promotions as well, before national unit level.
The 'fact' that chariots are obsolete weapons does not interest me.
The 'fact' that chariots are obsolete weapons does not interest me.
Rob the Taniwha
Chieftain
- Joined
- Apr 9, 2008
- Messages
- 3
Its always struck me as anachronistic to have chariots high up the tech tree. A previous poster pointed out historical experience - that mounted units have been the way to go (if you have horses of sufficient stature) because chariots are comparatively poor fighting platforms, with limited mobility.
Currently the chariot tech tree annoys me. My personal preference would be to introduce chariots before horsemen, bump horseman to the horse archer position now, and seperate war chariots/knights into horse archer/knights.
For those that want more chariots perhaps a war chariot replacement could be something like the Hussite war wagons, so a high defensive, high mobility unit neeeding gunpowder? That would change the flavour of the war chariot.
Cheers
Rob
Currently the chariot tech tree annoys me. My personal preference would be to introduce chariots before horsemen, bump horseman to the horse archer position now, and seperate war chariots/knights into horse archer/knights.
For those that want more chariots perhaps a war chariot replacement could be something like the Hussite war wagons, so a high defensive, high mobility unit neeeding gunpowder? That would change the flavour of the war chariot.
Cheers
Rob
Fafnir13
King
Ahwaric
Shrubbery-hugger
Quite the opposite here. Current chariots are as non-historic as it is possible. And stirrups were an iron age invention.
I am not a fan of chariots, but they have their flavor.
I have moved chariots to the beggining of the line and cut war chariots - both for "historic"/logic reasons and to remove the odd horseman -> chariot -> horse archer -> war chariot upgrade path.
That may be a bit much for the main mod, especially at this stage, so implementing some of MC's suggestions might be a good idea. But I voted cut them... but only war chariots , they overshadow knights now.There are other, more different options for tier 4 mounted units.
Night Hawk125
Chieftain
- Joined
- Jul 24, 2002
- Messages
- 13
Mm I don't use Chariots or horsemen myself that much, but would seen a wast to lose the differsity.
Just a crazy idea: Make chariots, casting platform for mages, perhaps a mage could be loaded into a chariot and cast from the platform and retreat fast if the battle goes badly. Or if all seams lost you can always order your chariot to charge into certain death
Just a crazy idea: Make chariots, casting platform for mages, perhaps a mage could be loaded into a chariot and cast from the platform and retreat fast if the battle goes badly. Or if all seams lost you can always order your chariot to charge into certain death
Fafnir13
King
Giving chariots the ability to load a unit would be quite appropriate and awesome.
I agree, I think that chariots should remain in game as Ratha, and as Dwarven and maybe Hippus UU (or whatever elses UU, but key is UU). That goat chariot art is my favorite, just don't remove it, but having chariots as Ratha only would make Ratha more unique. Then chariots could be given collateral and some other perk.
And LOL:
Tight...Though I guess that vote will go into 'keeping' end, as it is just more tempting to keep everything. But if horse line had to be worked again, id make it into horseman that upgrades into either light or heavy cavalry, then light cavalry into horse archer, and heavy into knight. Light would have more movement (3), more withdrawal, weaker, especially in defense, and when upgraded into horse archer, have immunity to 1st strikes.
Heavy would have 2 movement (better than infantry, less than light cavalry), less withdrawal, and huge attack. Also some boost for knights like courage, or spell like charge, or 'morale' strength boost to units in their stack would be nice.
Heavy would have 2 movement (better than infantry, less than light cavalry), less withdrawal, and huge attack. Also some boost for knights like courage, or spell like charge, or 'morale' strength boost to units in their stack would be nice.
Micky Onimusha
Prince
- Joined
- Apr 26, 2004
- Messages
- 344
I'm leaning in favour of "Keep and change". I like some of the ideas proposed here, but either way, they are right. Chariots and Horseman are very similar units, if they could be split apart a bit more it'd add some more interest. I do use Chariots as they are now though, but it would be more flavourful and add some more variation if they were significantly different mounted units to Horseman (I'm like the Collateral vs. Withdrawal idea).
Fafnir13
King
And LOL:
Cut Chariots 24 42.11%
Keep Chariots 24 42.11%
don't forget the (current) 16% that vote Kael crazy. I'm fairly certain those are assumed as "keep the chariots" only more emphatic.
Not so tight when you factor that in.
No, this is just politics - Kael is trying to prove that only 16% of people think he is crazy. Start a specific poll on the subject and you might get a clearer picture
slowcar
King
chariots are the only mounted units worth the effort - if they are cut there should be a serious overhaul of the mounted line.
westamastaflash
Lord Commander
- Joined
- Nov 1, 2007
- Messages
- 933
Cut them, but give mounted units weapon promotions. Horsemen could be increased in cost slightly then. I'd replace "Horse Archer" with something a more generic "Cavalry" unit (maybe a few select civs get "Horse Archer").
Ekolite
Deity
- Joined
- Sep 15, 2007
- Messages
- 5,451
Keep chariots. Too many units have been cut from FFH already in my opinion.
Chariots make building siege workshops worthwhile, and they have a great synergy with the dwarf nations. The Khazad can rely on them for pillaging to keep their gold reserves high, and the Luchuip are really helped by their speed. They make great support trooops and provide a little extra variety to the game.
Chariots make building siege workshops worthwhile, and they have a great synergy with the dwarf nations. The Khazad can rely on them for pillaging to keep their gold reserves high, and the Luchuip are really helped by their speed. They make great support trooops and provide a little extra variety to the game.
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