Child Rearing Thread

[Takhisis]

How unscientific of you to simply 'bet', Mr. illram.

 

[BSmith1068]

I agree 100% with BJ and the other parents here. Being a parent and what you imagine being a parent is like are two completely different things. There is nothing but the raw, exhausted, frustrating, exhilarating and completely awesome thing that is being a parent that can teach you what it really means to be one.

I've raised 3 girls to adulthood.

Books cant tell you how to be a parent. They can give you some practical things to do and apply (like any 'how to' book would), but a book cant cover everything about kids that will happen. Only experience will do that. Children are chaos. They are also very different one from another. What works for one will not for another, and that can often be extremely puzzling.

One thing I will tell you is having kids will change you. It's entirely up to you to choose whether that change is a positive thing or a negative thing.

Also this.

 

[warpus]

I agree 100% with BJ and the other parents here. Being a parent and what you imagine being a parent is like are two completely different things.

I don't disagree, but you can say that about many other things: imagining vs being a programmer, imagining vs being a hit man, the pope, a carpenter, etc.

An academic approach to learning can only teach you so much - hands on experience is invaluable.. and as a parent you only start getting hands on experience once you become one. That's a part of the challenge (I think).

 

[Loppan Torkel]

Doesn't parenting involve elements that resemble torture quite a bit? Repeatedly being awakened in the middle of the night, getting peed on, shouted at and generally abused.. Practically stuck in a prison to suck it up. Maybe it's more to it than just clouded judgement?


I get that parents love their children an usually don't regret their decision, but it seems to be for mostly selfish reasons. What would be the greater sacrifice - to have children or choose not to have any?

 

[warpus]

Depends on your priorities. More people seem to think that not having kids is selfish, from what I've seen anyway.. Not that it really makes sense - but a lot of people seem to think so anyway.

 

[Farm Boy]

Dunno. It's weird. I don't know that sacrifice is really applicable, though any big life decision comes with sacrifices. It certainly would have been easier and cheaper not to pursue this path. I would have spent a lot more money both on long term financial investments and toys for me.

 

[Commodore]

Depends on your priorities. More people seem to think that not having kids is selfish, from what I've seen anyway.. Not that it really makes sense - but a lot of people seem to think so anyway.

The logic behind it being selfish to not have kids is that you are then essentially just a waste of resources. If you aren't going to contribute to the survival of humanity through procreation, then why should the rest of us allow you continue to use up precious resources?

Now that's not logic that I necessarily agree with, that's just the basic gist of what I have heard others say.

 

[Loppan Torkel]

He's paying taxes to support all the lonely moms.

 

[warpus]

The logic behind it being selfish to not have kids is that you are then essentially just a waste of resources. If you aren't going to contribute to the survival of humanity through procreation, then why should the rest of us allow you continue to use up precious resources?

I guess I can actually see a bit of logic behind that, but even so, at no point in life is there ever an official directive from any level of society that says: "You exist so that we can have more kids". In fact, the society I am living in prides itself in giving individuals choices in life - the freedom to decide what sort of life one wants to lead.

All the people who I have heard say that just seemed miffed that they have to put up with rearing children - while others don't. To me all that's saying is: "I wish I didn't have kids.. But I did, so instead of acknowledging that, I am going to complain about those who don't."

And before anyone gets the wrong idea, let me just say that 98% of the parents I've met aren't like that - they are reasonable people who understand that life altering decisions have.. well, life altering consequences.

 

[Farm Boy]

It's more a response(in my experience) to people who endlessly female-dog about what tax breaks exist for you investing in your children. It's like, look dude, as if I had a kid for the tax break, that's pretty stupid. My investment is also a pretty good investment for society, assuming your non-parental tush wants to draw on things like medicare/medicaide/social security when you retire, so coming after me for "getting tax breaks for my selfish lifestyle choice," or whatever, is pretty backassward seeing as you seem to be spending most of your resources on yourself.

Or something like that.

 

[warpus]

Ah yes, that sort of complaining is fairly douchy as well. I mean, on one hand when I hear about the tax breaks my sister gets - I do get a bit jealous initially - until I remember what sorts of costs exist when it comes to raising a child to begin with.. and that happens not a second later. I have nothing against giving incentives for young families to produce and raise kids - as long as they are reasonable.

 

[Farm Boy]

There's this weird conflict between society and biology going on too. Those who tend to have the easiest time creating children, young females and their partners, if they have partners, tend to be in a relatively poor financial position to afford it. By the time the average family unit is more stable financially it often has become more difficult and medically risky to create a child. Financial self-actualization and fundamental biology are working cross purposes.

 

[Zelig]

There's this weird conflict between society and biology going on too. Those who tend to have the easiest time creating children, young females and their partners, if they have partners, tend to be in a relatively poor financial position to afford it. By the time the average family unit is more stable financially it often has become more difficult and medically risky to create a child. Financial self-actualization and fundamental biology are working cross purposes.

This leads to the obvious conclusion that we should be taxing old people more and redistributing to young people, with the understanding that the young people will also get taxed more when they're past reproductive age.

 

[warpus]

Financial self-actualization and fundamental biology are working cross purposes.

This is one of the reasons why I don't have kids yet. I am finally financially independent and am able to realize many of my dreams and goals. Why would I throw all that away for something somebody else wants?

Like with any other large investment - I am very careful about how I budget my time and money. This particular one would involve at least 18 years of my life - and perhaps a quarter of a million $ - or something similar.

Like I said, I bet a pretty lady could convince me, but just not anytime soon. First I'm going to Norway, then Nepal, and after that we'll see. Do I regret making life choices the way I have? In some ways, yes. I see the happiness my sister feels and the incredible bond between child and parent... .. that is something I wouldn't mind having. But also in many ways no - the amount of investment involved does not appeal to me at this stage in my life.

 

[Farm Boy]

This leads to the obvious conclusion that we should be taxing old people more and redistributing to young people, with the understanding that the young people will also get taxed more when they're past reproductive age.

Well, to the extent that the wealthier parts of society tend to be not young, then sure. Isn't that a point of progressive taxation?

 

[Zelig]

Well, to the extent that the wealthier parts of society tend to be not young, then sure. Isn't that a point of progressive taxation?

From what I hear, the point of progressive taxation in America is to punish success.

 

[Farm Boy]

Deploy super Palin rocket gloves!!!

 

[Hygro]

There's this weird conflict between society and biology going on too. Those who tend to have the easiest time creating children, young females and their partners, if they have partners, tend to be in a relatively poor financial position to afford it. By the time the average family unit is more stable financially it often has become more difficult and medically risky to create a child. Financial self-actualization and fundamental biology are working cross purposes.

And we culturally encourage dispersing from our relatives, living a distance, so that grandparents can't be highly active in parenting, necessitating older-parent wisdom to do a good job. It's all twisted.

 

[Takhisis]

That's only in 'Merica and perhaps Canada, and some parts of English society.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Uh-huh. What a shame I missed the original post before it was edited.


Out of curiosity, what's your take on the myriad books about how to raise children? Do you feel that unless the authors are also parents, that their books are worthless? When you were a teacher did you consider non-teachers' opinions about teaching to be "clueless"?

I can't think of a single reason why anyone's views on parenting would be 100% clueless. After all, all of us had parents or guardians of some sort. At various stages of our lives we have differing opinions of how good a job was done raising us.

Here's a specific example. My parents were both heavy smokers. Since I really had little option but to sit there and breathe in the toxic air around me and this resulted in life-long health problems, I'd say they made a monumentally bad parenting decision. Now since I've never had human children, is it "clueless" of me to hold the opinion that smoking in the presence of children is no better than child abuse and should be illegal?

The edit you missed was the addition of the

People can know things about being a parent and raising a child that are helpful and good as in your smoking example. But, being a parent is an experience that encompasses more than the sum of what can be learned from books, working with kids and being a child. It would be very difficult to document the many complicated dimensions of being a parent and put them in a how to book. A good novelist might capture it though.

You and others seem to be unhappy with my use of the word "clueless" and feel that it is too extreme. I do not think that it is too strong a word. I know looking back, my wife and I were both "clueless" and I think that those of you who do make the transition to being a parent will agree once you get there.