Mandate of Heaven
3and a WLTED in all cities every time you gain a city, and 1 when you produce a great work. Bonus halves on era change. +10% during WLTEDs.
Removing the culture is the right call. China's design is overshadowed by having absurd early game culture. She was good at literally everything, with a ton of OP combinations with pantheons or stupid build orders.
I'd give the paper maker more culture. 1 culture per 4 citizens would be cool. You use the UA to grow and the UB rewards you for it. I don't think gold is very thematic to the imperial examination.
Some people were throwing out the suggestion to just have the Capital's +1/ bonus removed. I think that wouldn't be enough personally, but it was an idea.
Any ideas for China's UB then? Because I think the UA is still mostly early game and the one thing that keeps China interesting mid-game right now is the UU. Carthage has a solid UNW as well, one that I'd argue is probably better than the Paper Maker.
One idea I have for the UB is to remove the +1 base and +1 per 4 and have it instead come with a of Writing that triggers the UA.
I posted this in the New Version thread, but I'll post it here in hopes of it getting discussion.
The biggest difference is that Egypt gets +5/ from Artifacts. China would get , and WLTED from these .I mean there’s a crap ton of great works of Chinese writing that don’t necessarily have to be classical era specific.
I really like that idea, by the way. The trick would be to make the paper maker feel different enough from the burial tomb. The other problem is that GWs of writing are themeable in classical amphitheaters, while artifacts have to hold on until industrial to get themed. So GWWriting are way stronger than artifacts. It may be that, because the utility of GWWs is too great, it would be impossible to balance.
You also need to keep in mind that if I get 10 paper makers, it means I get +30% yields on great writers that I bulb, and I could theme at least 5 amphitheaters to boost great artists.I mean there’s a crap ton of great works of Chinese writing that don’t necessarily have to be classical era specific.
I really like that idea, by the way. The trick would be to make the paper maker feel different enough from the burial tomb. The other problem is that GWs of writing are themeable in classical amphitheaters, while artifacts have to hold on until industrial to get themed. So GWWriting are way stronger than artifacts. It may be that, because the utility of GWWs is too great, it would be impossible to balance.
1 gold per 4 citizens should go, I think that's clear. Its boring, and was basically a placeholder to make the building unique without actually being strong.
I live in China, and I really think her bonus should be culture related, not gold. The history is riddled with economic problems, but this country has always been a cultural juggernaut.
You also need to keep in mind that if I get 10 paper makers, it means I get +30% yields on great writers that I bulb, and I could theme at least 5 amphitheaters to boost great artists.
All great points. I had forgotten about the ramifications for GWs and GAsYou also need to keep in mind that if I get 10 paper makers, it means I get +30% yields on great writers that I bulb, and I could theme at least 5 amphitheaters to boost great artists.
I think it would be a great addition; China would become the premier thick civ that wants to grow have many cities that are all decently large in order to get the most from the UA. As you say, it would also add a bit of wiggle room to make the Paper Maker a bit more special.I'd be fine replacing the gold with culture as a per-pop scaler. It'd be a decent culture steroid, but not so early that it skews the early game.
I'd be fine replacing the gold with culture as a per-pop scaler. It'd be a decent culture steroid, but not so early that it skews the early game.
The problem, however, is that even nerfed China still dominates most games I see her in, and I just don't know why exactly.
G
If China's kit was balanced overall, this wouldn't be a bad thing, right?You also need to keep in mind that if I get 10 paper makers, it means I get +30% yields on great writers that I bulb, and I could theme at least 5 amphitheaters to boost great artists.
The people who think old China wasn't that good were living in a fantasy, she was incredibly strong. Changing culture to gold is a nerf, but not a huge nerf, and the patch made food way more valuable, which she has a lot of. The paper maker isn't that weak, its just boring. Extra food starting on turn one indirectly gives culture if she takes tradition or progress.The problem, however, is that even nerfed China still dominates most games I see her in, and I just don't know why exactly.
I honestly just forgot that WLTKD was even part of the bonus, the culture just outshone everything, even strong bonuses like these.Maybe defacto permanent WLTKD is more powerful than we realized, especially with various bonuses added in.
I think G is referring to the paper maker here, not the UA. Your suggestion for the paper maker is weaker than the current version, its a library with fluff added, the numbers are so small. In Renaissance with 5 trade routes, you still only get 12 science per turn. 2 yields on great works isn't very noticeable.I think it would be a great addition; China would become the premier thick civ that wants to grow have many cities that are all decently large in order to get the most from the UA. As you say, it would also add a bit of wiggle room to make the Paper Maker a bit more special.
I can't believe my mind is blown with such a simple change.If we want to get really crazy, it could have a writer specialist instead of a scientist.
You're right. Re-reading his post, it's clear he wasn't talking about my UA proposal. I guess I jumped the gunI think G is referring to the paper maker here, not the UA.
Well, first off, the current Paper Maker is actually pretty darn strong, it's just not very interesting. +10% in all cities during WLTED is pretty much just a permanent +10% in all cities. It's just not very eye-catching, and doesn't boost anything you weren't going to do anyways. This is why we added diplomatic bonuses in 4UC, because it didn't feel like China's kit gave it anything specific to do besides grow like a boss, fill its guild slots, and maybe conquer opportunistically.Your suggestion for the paper maker is weaker than the current version, its a library with fluff added, the numbers are so small. In Renaissance with 5 trade routes, you still only get 12 science per turn. 2 yields on great works isn't very noticeable.
After sleeping on in, I don't think there's a good way to balance adding a free GWW to every city 1 tech before amphitheaters.A great work of writing is extremely strong, just a library with a great work and nothing else is a great UB. (China's other tools are stronger than Egypt's).
My experience with adding GPPs to buildings is that it's fluff outside the capital, but for a GWAM it would be fluff outside the 3 guild cities. You can add a couple points for flavor, but they won't really affect balance.A great writer point or two could be give a similar flavor, while being more easily balanced. If we want to get really crazy, it could have a writer specialist instead of a scientist
I'd avoid this if possible, unless complemented with something really unique. Yield on birth are already given by Council and University, so giving library an instant yield on birth would homogenize the building line, and would fail to stand out as a unique mechanic.Culture on births?
I like this suggestion, since it pushes the culture quite a bit later. And not having the WLTED trigger for both conditions will help with the permanent WLTED.Mandate of Heaven
3and a WLTED in all cities every time you gain a city, and 1 when you produce a great work. Bonus halves on era change. +10% during WLTEDs.
I think that's a good idea.If we took culture off the UA, couldn’t we just shift it to the paper maker? I mean paper was a huge cultural tool, so flavor it makes sense. It also delays the culture bonus and makes the UB more interesting. Seems to hit all of the needed changes.
You mean, swapping the culture bonus for gaining a city or GW with an ability of the paper maker?If we took culture off the UA, couldn’t we just shift it to the paper maker? I mean paper was a huge cultural tool, so flavor it makes sense. It also delays the culture bonus and makes the UB more interesting. Seems to hit all of the needed changes.
I really like this suggestion!You mean, swapping the culture bonus for gaining a city or GW with an ability of the paper maker?
Something like:
UA: Creating Great Works or gaining cities grants +1 in all cities and starts a "We love the empress day". Bonus declines each era by 50%. +10% Food and Gold during "We love the empress day"
UB: Creating Great Works or gaining cities grants +1 Culture in this city. Bonus declines each era by 50%. +1 for every 4 Citizen in this City. -1 Unhappiness from illiteracy.
This would push the culture part a bit behind, even more than the idea of removing the trigger for the capital.