Chinese people "need to be controlled" says Jackie Chan

This surprises me from you. So socialism is ok, but communism is not?

I can't help but wonder how people with your mindset must have viewed Cold War Europe. Would you have asked Western Europeans what their big problem with the Soviets was given that they were all a bunch of socialists anyway?
 
I can't help but wonder how people with your mindset must have viewed Cold War Europe. Would you have asked Western Europeans what their big problem with the Soviets was given that they were all a bunch of socialists anyway?
At that point in time I was a lot more concerned with jumping my bicycle over stuff..... or maybe just mastering my Big Wheel.
 
Good points.
20 years of communism shapes people´s mind more than centuries of tradition.
Of course, we should expect nationalist disorder and general mess, but this should be everywhere where people lived in such regimes.
Fascism a communism? Everybody defines it acccording his needs, political position and theory. But in praxis they are very close. In both are "elites", ones are saying that they are there for nation, others says that they are there for working class. In praxis Communists were also promoting nationalism, fascists were also promoting working class.
 
Good points.
20 years of communism shapes people´s mind more than centuries of tradition.
Of course, we should expect nationalist disorder and general mess, but this should be everywhere where people lived in such regimes.
Fascism a communism? Everybody defines it acccording his needs, political position and theory. But in praxis they are very close. In both are "elites", ones are saying that they are there for nation, others says that they are there for working class. In praxis Communists were also promoting nationalism, fascists were also promoting working class.

:lol: In "praxis" (which I don't think is the right term anyway), any system ever used is about the elite. The elite is just defined differently. In capitalism, it's the wealthy; in Fascism the military in conjunction with the wealthy; in historical Communism the political elite/ party members.

Can you spot something in common between some, as well as the difference between some?
 
:lol: In "praxis" (which I don't think is the right term anyway), any system ever used is about the elite. The elite is just defined differently. In capitalism, it's the wealthy; in Fascism the military in conjunction with the wealthy; in historical Communism the political elite/ party members.

Can you spot something in common between some, as well as the difference between some?
Sorry for praxis, I was sure thats English term.
I thought that difference between totality and democracy is there not to discuss, elites had " " for reason. Dont think about some elites theory. In totalitarian regimes described "elites" only rule politically, while in democracy elites have same votes as others and have individual ambitions.
 
Sorry for praxis, I was sure thats English term.

It is, but it wouldn't be the correct usage.

REDY said:
I thought that difference between totality and democracy is there not to discuss, elites had " " for reason. In totalitarian regimes described "elites" rule, while in democracy elites have same votes as others and have individual ambitions.

Well, shall we not delude ourselves? Elites have more power to influence elections that anyone. They are also much more likely to win elections. Their power is significant enough in the US, the traditional model for democracy, for example. It is such that they are recognisable as a strong political force, whose games largely constitute the politics of the country.
 
Well, shall we not delude ourselves? Elites have more power to influence elections that anyone. They are also much more likely to win elections. Their power is significant enough in the US, the traditional model for democracy, for example. It is such that they are recognisable as a strong political force, whose games largely constitute the politics of the country.
The point is that my "elite" is parodic name for ruling fascists/communits, not linked to theory of elites.
 
The point is that my "elite" is parodic name for ruling fascists/communits, not linked to theory of elites.

But my point is they are not the same group of people.
 
This surprises me from you. So socialism is ok, but communism is not?

You haven't been paying attention. I've never been, nor ever had a use for, socialism. Liberals are far farther from socialists than conservatives like you are from Stalinism/Maoism.
 
This condescending attitude had never been much different, either.

I give it to whomever deserves it.

Corporatism = corporation power combined with state power.
Communism = state power combined with corporation power.

Fundamentally different, yeah, maybe, but the outcome is the same.

Cute. So, where did you get this knowledge from?

This surprises me from you. So socialism is ok, but communism is not?

No, he's never said that socialism is okay. Don't give him the honor of that position.
 
In what way would you describe fascist economics as leftist by today's standards? And what relevance does this have to anything? Isn't fascism characterised by far right social views rather than fairly mainstream corrupt economic policies? Why must the clash between fascism and communism divide people like us who support neither? It all seems so silly.

There was a discussion about fascism and it seemed appropriate to point out to the definition of a number of scholars, plus of several fascists themselves, which are in the wiki article I quoted.

I would say that fascism's belief in state control of several industries, comprehensive welfare systems and, generally speaking, big government role in the economy, are today mostly associated with the left-wing. Socially they are extremely authoritarian.

Like you, I don't think that the clash between fascism and communism must divide us who support neither. But it's nevertheless interesting to note that two systems are not at all diametrically opposed, as sometimes it is claimed. Nor are they identical, of course. This is relevant when discussing China, technically a communist country often accused of being fascistoid.
 
But my point is they are not the same group of people.
Elites and "elites"? Agree
Fascists and communists? Italian Marxist can hardly work out something very different. Their mechanics or ruling was very similiar. It was very important control military and companies for both.
Of course if they would be completely same they would not have same names. Thats why are there maoists, marxists, stalinists, marxist-leninists, trockyists, titoists and many others. It wasnt uncommon that these groups hated each other more than democrats.
 
Fascism is just communism with private property.

This scale should be a circle, not a line...

Anarchy - Communism - Socialism - US democrats - Pure Democracy/freedom - US republicans - Conservative/Reactionary - Fascism - Anarchy
 
Elites and "elites"? Agree
Fascists and communists? Italian Marxist can hardly work out something very different. Their mechanics or ruling was very similiar. It was very important control military and companies for both.
Of course if they would be completely same they would not have same names. Thats why are there maoists, marxists, stalinists, marxist-leninists, trockyists, titoists and many others. It wasnt uncommon that these groups hated each other more than democrats.

As I said, they are controlled by different groups of people and operated differently. I don't know how that translates to "very similar". This is just a common democracy vs. everything else mentality and bias. Some people would even implicitly deny that there is a difference between absolutism and totalitarianism, evident from the labeling of various dictator figures as "czar".

Fascism is just communism with private property.

And thus a fundamental difference.
 
Oh, really? Can you actually demonstrate this?

This sounds as deep as any media soundbite. Have you been gathering information from the TV?

Cute. So, where did you get this knowledge from?

Perhaps those two sentences were indeed like soundbites, but they were nevertheless hard to refute - otherwise either of you would have done so. Anyway, you need only to read any history book to see that factories in the communist regimes was not owned by "the people", but by the political elite. Any serious book will also tell you what kind of miseries people in Soviet Union and China had suffered. The Gulag Archipelago is a good starting point.

Fascism is just communism with private property.

I see you and I raise you one: Communism is just fascism with property being nominally public, but in fact owned by the political elite.

I give it to whomever deserves it.
So, according to some, did the people who were put in gulags deserve it, perhaps more than a poster in this thread.

I must stress that this arrogance can be traced directly to Karl Marx himself. If you read his works, you will find full pages of such personal attacks - rats, worms, whatever - that you would be hard pressed to find in the writings of classical liberals. I do not believe that either Cheezy or luceafarul's love for personal attacks are purely coincidental.


:lol: In "praxis" (which I don't think is the right term anyway), any system ever used is about the elite. The elite is just defined differently. In capitalism, it's the wealthy; in Fascism the military in conjunction with the wealthy; in historical Communism the political elite/ party members.

Can you spot something in common between some, as well as the difference between some?

This is the standard rhetoric taught in a Chinese political textbook about western democracy.

The crucial point is to confuse "elite" with "elite". Circumstantial evidence is typically used to suggest that the "elite" in some countries are not very different from the "elite" in other countries. In American, for example, you will need to be very rich, have very good connections, in order to get elected as the president. Never mind that Barack Obama was born to a black student on scholarship. Never mind that he was refused a floor pass just five years ago to the Democratic Convention. You have to be rich and powerful to be elected, the poor have no chance at all. America is ruled by its "elite". Never mind social mobility. Therefore, American democracy is but a fanciful day dream, invented by none other than the corrupt capitalists. Insert a couple of anecdotes about how some people was greatly liberated by the communists, while turning a blind eye to all the achievements by the class enemies, the "dictatorship of the proletariat" is instantly made superior to the hypocritical liberal democracy.
 
Perhaps those two sentences were indeed like soundbites, but they were nevertheless hard to refute - otherwise either of you would have done so. Anyway, you need only to read any history book to see that factories in the communist regimes was not owned by "the people", but by the political elite. Any serious book will also tell you what kind of miseries people in Soviet Union and China had suffered. The Gulag Archipelago is a good starting point.

Actually, I already posted a very simple explanation why they are different.

Alassius said:
This is the standard rhetoric taught in a Chinese political textbook about western democracy.

The crucial point is to confuse "elite" with "elite". Circumstantial evidence is typically used to suggest that the "elite" in some countries are not very different from the "elite" in other countries. In American, for example, you will need to be very rich, have very good connections, in order to get elected as the president. Never mind that Barack Obama was born to a black student on scholarship. Never mind that he was refused a floor pass just five years ago to the Democratic Convention. You have to be rich and powerful to be elected, the poor have no chance at all. America is ruled by its "elite". Never mind social mobility. Therefore, American democracy is but a fanciful day dream, invented by none other than the corrupt capitalists. Insert a couple of anecdotes about how some people was greatly liberated by the communists, while turning a blind eye to all the achievements by the class enemies, the "dictatorship of the proletariat" is instantly made superior to the hypocritical liberal democracy.

And so the fact that a plutocratic-elite situation prevails in the US is false? :lol: Do you think Obama doesn't have to navigate the waters amongst the alligator elites? You should read Max Weber to shine some light into that ignorant abyss that you seem to languish in. Despite your praise of Western democracy, you seem to think that the president is some sort of king, the sole ruler of the country who singularly won his position and beholden to no one but the public. In fact, your example proves the opposite. Talk about self-defeating.

Curiously, something similar can be observed in Communist countries, where members of the party oppose and block the leader's political efforts. Look at Mao and what happened to him after the disaster of the Cultural Revolution. Yeah, he gets his way all the time, just like Hitler did :rolleyes:

There is no difference between "elite" and "elite" as you seem to be implying. The word just means the cream of the crop, the people who hold the cards. The difference is in what the group consists of. Lay off the moralistic attempt to differentiate some usage of the same word of the same meaning with another.

And you imagine that there is no such thing as social mobility in a Communist country? Look at the profiles of the leaders. Many of them had very humble beginnings and worked their way up in the party. But, oh no, only democracy has social mobility. What did we expect, democracy is THE opponent of venality and aristocratic privilege. It can't be that its status as a revolutionary movement is shared by some other ideology!
 
And so the fact that a plutocratic-elite situation prevails in the US is false? :lol: Do you think Obama doesn't have to navigate the waters amongst the alligator elites? You should read Max Weber to shine some light into that ignorant abyss that you seem to languish in. Despite your praise of Western democracy, you seem to think that the president is some sort of king, the sole ruler of the country who singularly won his position and beholden to no one but the public. In fact, your example proves the opposite. Talk about self-defeating.

Curiously, something similar can be observed in Communist countries, where members of the party oppose and block the leader's political efforts. Look at Mao and what happened to him after the disaster of the Cultural Revolution. Yeah, he gets his way all the time, just like Hitler did :rolleyes:

There is no difference between "elite" and "elite" as you seem to be implying. The word just means the cream of the crop, the people who hold the cards. The difference is in what the group consists of. Lay off the moralistic attempt to differentiate some usage of the same word of the same meaning with another.

And you imagine that there is no such thing as social mobility in a Communist country? Look at the profiles of the leaders. Many of them had very humble beginnings and worked their way up in the party. But, oh no, only democracy has social mobility. What did we expect, democracy is THE opponent of venality and aristocratic privilege. It can't be that its status as a revolutionary movement is shared by some other ideology!

Exactly what I'm talking about:

Democracy is ruled by the elite, communism is ruled by the elite, so democracy is not superior.
Democracy has power transition, communism has power transition, so democracy is not superior.
Democracy has social mobility, communism has social mobility, so democracy is not superior.

Etc. etc.

Let me spell it out more clearly: this kind of argument boils down to "all the good things that democracy has, communism has too. All the bad things communism has, democracy has too. Therefore, democracy is bad and communism is good."

Notwithstanding the obvious problem in its logic, one other problem with this argument is that while both systems have flaws, their flaws are not equal in strength.

In a communist state, the ruling government is much stronger than its counterpart in a democratic government - much closer to a king - and have much more control over people's life, power succession, or social mobility. It is much harder, say, for a commoner to move up in a communist state, and virtually impossible if he holds a different opinion from that of the ruling government. Saying that communist states have social mobility, is like saying there were poor people in both societies. Relatively, maybe, but the poor in America had always been much richer than the poor in the Soviet Union.

The difference between the two systems is not that one is ruled by the elite and one is not, or that who exactly the elite is. It doesn't matter if you are ruled by capitalists or communists or fascists. If they have the same power, they will do precisely the same nasty thing to you. The difference between the systems is how difficult it is for someone to become a member of the elite; and how difficult the elite can exert power on the ruled. Sure, in America if a rich man really hates you, he may be able to make your life miserable. But it is so much easier for a party cadre in a communist state, that such an abuse wouldn't even make news, assuming such news is at all possible. This difference is nothing to sneer at.

Fascism was, in this sense, similar to communism, in that the elite accumulated too much power, by controlling both the state and the business at the same time, without any checks and balances. The motivation behind the social construct did not matter at all, as anyone who got the power inevitably abused it. The outcome was that the people in both societies suffered.

The strength of democracy, on the other hand, lies paradoxically in the weakness of the government. The president cannot act like a king. He has virtually no power to sack the majority of his people, who are employed in private businesses. He cannot abuse a power he doesn't have. It was exactly this power that made the coercion we saw in either fascism or communism possible.
 
Exactly what I'm talking about:

Democracy is ruled by the elite, communism is ruled by the elite, so democracy is not superior.
Democracy has power transition, communism has power transition, so democracy is not superior.
Democracy has social mobility, communism has social mobility, so democracy is not superior.

Etc. etc.

Let me spell it out more clearly: this kind of argument boils down to "all the good things that democracy has, communism has too. All the bad things communism has, democracy has too. Therefore, democracy is bad and communism is good."

Notwithstanding the obvious problem in its logic, one other problem with this argument is that while both systems have flaws, their flaws are not equal in strength.

So it's wrong that democracy and Communism are more similar than a lot of people think because you say so?

Alassius said:
In a communist state, the ruling government is much stronger than its counterpart in a democratic government - much closer to a king - and have much more control over people's life, power succession, or social mobility. It is much harder, say, for a commoner to move up in a communist state...

This is BS. Prove it.

Alassius said:
and virtually impossible if he holds a different opinion from that of the ruling government.

I don't see too many Communists in power in the US. And there were party members who thought differently in Communist parties, imagine that!

Alassius said:
Saying that communist states have social mobility, is like saying there were poor people in both societies.

This is where you fail because your meaning of social mobility is tied to wealth. Obviously, that's not how Communist systems work since private property is abolished. It's more like saying no one drinks in a place because all of them use straws.

Alassius said:
Relatively, maybe, but the poor in America had always been much richer than the poor in the Soviet Union.

Yet another piece of BS.

Alassius said:
The difference between the two systems is not that one is ruled by the elite and one is not, or that who exactly the elite is. It doesn't matter if you are ruled by capitalists or communists or fascists. If they have the same power, they will do precisely the same nasty thing to you. The difference between the systems is how difficult it is for someone to become a member of the elite; and how difficult the elite can exert power on the ruled.

You have the secret on how to get rich easy and join the elite? Please share. My dream is to become like the Kennedys or the Bushes :p

'Soft' or economic power isn't necessary less evil than 'hard' or physical power, by the way.

Alassius said:
Sure, in America if a rich man really hates you, he may be able to make your life miserable. But it is so much easier for a party cadre in a communist state, that such an abuse wouldn't even make news, assuming such news is at all possible. This difference is nothing to sneer at.

And you're saying it makes the news in the US? And if it makes the news, that actually stops it from happening again and again? Check out the latest economic crisis. Looks like the elite pulled off one big one on the public. And they will continue to do so in future opportunities.

Alassius said:
Fascism was, in this sense, similar to communism, in that the elite accumulated too much power, by controlling both the state and the business at the same time, without any checks and balances. The motivation behind the social construct did not matter at all, as anyone who got the power inevitably abused it. The outcome was that the people in both societies suffered.

Simple history lesson. Do you know why Fascism was such a bitter enemy of Communism? Fascism had strong business support. That is not the case with the Communist system, so comparing the two systems by saying that in both the elite controlled the state and business is pure BS.

Alassius said:
The strength of democracy, on the other hand, lies paradoxically in the weakness of the government. The president cannot act like a king. He has virtually no power to sack the majority of his people, who are employed in private businesses. He cannot abuse a power he doesn't have. It was exactly this power that made the coercion we saw in either fascism or communism possible.

The strength of aristocracy lies in the weakness of the king. He has no power over the nobility, who are employed in private businesses. He cannot abuse a power it doesn't have. It is exactly this power that made the coercion we see in the modern nation state possible.

Tsarist rule or Boyar rule?

We haven't even talked about foreign policy, in which the difference between totalitarianism and democracy get even narrower.
 
So it's wrong that democracy and Communism are more similar than a lot of people think because you say so?

They might be more similar than some people think, but it is wrong to suggest that they offer no difference in their impact on the life of a commoner. It is wrong to suggest having similarity means having no difference either.


This is BS. Prove it.

I was born in a communist country while it was still mostly (economically) communist. I'm afraid that I can only offer an anecdote.

My father is one of those people who desires to work hard for a better life. In around '87 he started building a hatchery for the factory which both my parents were working in, with a goal of providing two whole chicken to every family in the factory, on the Chinese new year. Yes, two whole chicken per family per year, for a relatively well doing factory with over 10,000 employees, was a worthy goal just twenty years ago. That was how I know that the poor in America had been richer than at least those in China.

He succeeded in building the hatchery. In fact, just earlier this year, when I was back in China to stay with my family, we had dinner with a friend of my parents who was also in the same factory. We dipped briefly in this topic, with the guest mentioning, amusingly, that how he did not believe my father could do it, but were surprised when he collected the chicken.

A man like my father will be well rewarded in a market economy. Indeed, he was. But that was years later, after the market gradually opened across China. For the hatchery, though, the factory simply replaced him after the first year's chicken was delivered. He was not credited. I think he earned a bonus, somewhere around a few hundred dollars in value, but I'm not sure if he did.

Now, you are free to denounce my anecdote as meaningless, but I can tell you that this theme was a fairly common occurance. My father was actually lucky - he had at least had his voice heard and did what he wanted. Many more simply could not have their ideas going anywhere. As a circumstantial proof, just think about how China's development stagnated for thirty years, with no real improvement in living standards apart from the first few years of communist rule - which was mainly because of the end of war - and how fast China caught up with the rest of the world in another thirty years. Was it because people were dumber in the first thirty years? Maybe, if you count in the numbing effects of propaganda, but that doesn't explain the huge difference. It was because in the latter thirty years people with ideas could actually carry them out, instead of waiting for approval from party officials, whose interests often did not coincide with the life of the commoner.

Of course, even back then it was possible to climb up on the social ladder, the existence of which was officially denied for as long as the communist economy existed. But how? It was not possible if all you had was an idea to build something. No matter how smart you were, you had to have the right kind of skills: skills to thrive in a fierce, autocratic, and sometimes brutal bureaucracy. Only those who mastered the dark arts of politics got to climb up. That was the where the real difference in social mobility lay: forget about becoming a professional, a doctor, or Marx-forbidding, a small business-owner. If you didn't know all those politics tricks, you were stuck at the bottom, hoping for an annual raise of your wage that was worth twenty dollars.

There was no middle class. There was only the proletarians, who had nothing, and the mandarins, who had everything. In the most theatrical irony, Marx's dire predictions of monopoly realised in its entirety not in any capitalist country, but in about all communist ones.



Simple history lesson. Do you know why Fascism was such a bitter enemy of Communism? Fascism had strong business support. That is not the case with the Communist system, so comparing the two systems by saying that in both the elite controlled the state and business is pure BS.
And how was the communist system not the elite controlling both the state and business?



I don't see too many Communists in power in the US. And there were party members who thought differently in Communist parties, imagine that!

Mayhaps that was because few people these days actually believe in communism, rather than that the government was suppressing believers?

The difference between factions within a communist parties are nowhere near the difference between the parties allowed in a democratic country. You are suggesting again that since people also "thought differently in Communist parties", the range of opinions you are allowed to have could be as large as anywhere else. This idea is dangerous: it had been a very powerful argument employed by authoritarian governments against change. After all, if they are as black as us, why do we want to move in their way? As long as you keep thinking all shades of grey is equivalent to black, you will never get any closer to white.

Much of the rest of your reply was, unsurprisingly, still using the same tactics. I do feel like to address this specifically, though:

You have the secret on how to get rich easy and join the elite? Please share. My dream is to become like the Kennedys or the Bushes :p

I don't have an answer to get rich easily. Very few people had. Many that you would believe that they had did not get rich easily. In all seriousness, you would not understand how hard it is for the rich people to get their success without at least witnessing it. I have. Luxury cars and yachts are as far from this secret you are seeking, as Marx's promise of paradise was from Stalinist Russia.

I do have an answer to how to get rich slowly. Work hard, live within your means, invest smartly, and look out for yourself. Here's a site for you:
http://www.getrichslowly.org/
In case you are tempted to trash this site for being capitalist propaganda, I suggest you hold back and first read the story of the site owner, J.D.
 
Fascism is just communism with private property.

This scale should be a circle, not a line...

Anarchy - Communism - Socialism - US democrats - Pure Democracy/freedom - US republicans - Conservative/Reactionary - Fascism - Anarchy

How is anarchy related to communism or fascism?
 
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