Christian converts on trial in Turkey

[Trajan12]

Possibly so. There have been other cases of "insulting Turkishness" such as the author who wrote of the actions in Armenia. It's a Law I'm grateful we don't have here. I also don't see how such a law can be compatible with entry into the European Union.

I thought you guys could go to jail for denying the holocaust?

Anyway, I'll insult Turkishness all I want. And I hope the Pope goes on a nice tirade himself, just to show 'em whats what.

 

[PrinceOfLeigh]

It's quite in spirit with other free speech restriction laws in Germany and France, and highlights why these types of laws are dangerous.

Laws such as?

 

[GenMarshall]

I thought you guys could go to jail for denying the holocaust?

Anyway, I'll insult Turkishness all I want. And I hope the Pope goes on a nice tirade himself, just to show 'em whats what.

Nah, I just have a few Star Destroyers and a Company of Catholic Samurais guarding Pope Benedict XVI . If he goes on a rant, the Star Destroyers can turn the land into rubble .

 

[PrinceOfLeigh]

I thought you guys could go to jail for denying the holocaust?

As has already been mentioned earlier in this thread this is true but only of publications. Again it's not a rule which I would agree with but I can see the logic in having it. I was rather flippant with regard to Turkey's entry into the EU. I suppose I should read Article 301 for myself and find out exactly what constitutes "insulting Turkishness" before I make such a declaration.

Anyway, I'll insult Turkishness all I want. And I hope the Pope goes on a nice tirade himself, just to show 'em whats what.

Not in Turkey you won't.

 

[Trajan12]

Nah, I just have a few Star Destroyers and a Company of Catholic Samurais guarding Pope Benedict XVI . If he goes on a rant, the Star Destroyers can turn the land into rubble .

HAH Benedict is so great. I doubt the extremists can even touch him with his awesomeness. Almost makes me want to be a Catholic.(If I wouldn't already have such a long list of sins to confess.)

 

[Bill3000]

Laws such as?

I was thinking genocide denial, really, as well as banning nazi parties and the like. It doesn't take much of a step to go from what is considered slander to the general public to what the government considers slander.

Extremism can be easily defeated through education; there is no need to resort to such expression-denying means. After all, what's the point in simply shouting out at someone that they are wrong, the holocaust actually did happen, and getting pissed at them at saying that? The facts are there - you can simply debunk that claim, or more likely, ignore it altogether, as the burden of proof would be on the extremist, much like any other crackpottery. Besides, banning speech isn't going to make the people who have these beliefs go away.

Yet at the same time, restricting policies on these matters can lead to stuff like this if taken too far: Banning speech that slanders a nation.

 

[PrinceOfLeigh]

I was thinking genocide denial, really, as well as banning nazi parties and the like. It doesn't take much of a step to go from what is considered slander to the general public to what the government considers slander.

Extremism can be easily defeated through education; there is no need to resort to such expression-denying means.

I agree entirely. The EU though is at heart a group of Nations agreeing to abide by certain rules in order to reach a common goal. Enough of those nations have agreed that Holocaust Denial should be illegal and thus it remains so in those countries. I don't think enough Members of the EU will consider "insulting Turkishness" as being compatible with the EU's version of free speech.

 

[HannibalBarka]

...Again, Christians don't care how you live, we just don't want our kids told that it is normal, because we don't think it is. We just want to be allowed to raise our kids as we choose and we want the government to favor traditional marriage. There are good reasons to do so, namely it protects the fabric of society.
....

If that is not preaching hatred, I wonder what is
If it is not normal it's what?
So the "Hate the Sin love the Sinner" is all BS for me

 

[Trajan12]

If that is not preaching hatred, I wonder what is
If it is not normal it's what?
So the "Hate the Sin love the Sinner" is all BS for me

What she is saying is that we don't agree with this lifestyle so we don't want our children to think that it is ok to do this. In our belief it is not.

 

[Mott1]

Their crime is "insulting Turkishness" achieved by critising Islam.

If Turkey indentifies itself with Islam then can you honestly say that:

Turkey is a secular state.

The vague terms of Article 301 of the Turkish Penal Code can be applied to criminalize a huge range of critical opinions, including religious opinions.
Human rights defenders, journalists, publishers, in fact potentially anybody who express views that are counter to the "official Turk history" or the state religion can find themselves prosecuted.
Although the Turkish constitution and laws are relatively secular, there exists provisions that are undoubtly influenced by Islamic Common Law.

 

[HannibalBarka]

There is a HUGE difference between FAVORING traditional marriage, which has PROVEN to be the stabilizing force of any civilization and actively discriminating against homosexuals.

first, I am still waiting for those proof.
Second, even if that was true, it is not as if gay person has the choice between getting involved into a "traditional marriage" and a "gay one". If he is gay, it's either he gets into a gay marriage or none. So it is just going to ADD.

This is the huge jump in deduction that the 5-10% of the population (ie the gay community) takes that is totally unwarranted!
EXAMPLE: Gays demand that schools teach that homosexual feelings are natural and unchangable.
Christians and traditionals do not want this teaching given to our children. #1it is not true.

The scientific community disagree with you on that

#2 They have no business CONTRADICTING our religious views. This act is superceding our religion by the state, which is illegal.

Your religious views SHOULD BE CONTRADICTED if they are scientifically false. It is not superceding your religion by the State. If your religion says Earth is 6000 years old (does it ? ), than your religious veiws BETTER BE CONTRADICTED AND TAUGHT TO BE BALLONY IN SCHOLLS.

If people have a problem with this, then they should give out VOUCHERS so that parents can CHOOSE how their children are taught.
There was a pastor at my (former) church (The Vineyard Newport Beach) back in the '80s, who was a male model at one point in his life. He came to know Christ, he turned from his gay lifestyle, married a girl from church, had four kids, and then died of AIDS a few years later. So it does happen, people do change. It is possible, we have all seen it. Therefore, we do not want our children taught that it is impossible.

And that is supposed to prove what? He either was bi (so maybe are you) or did not suport the social pressure gays suffer.

 

[PrinceOfLeigh]

The vague terms of Article 301 of the Turkish Penal Code can be applied to criminalize a huge range of critical opinions, including religious opinions.

Human rights defenders, journalists, publishers, in fact potentially anybody who express views that are counter to the "official Turk history" or the state religion can find themselves prosecuted.

Although the Turkish constitution and laws are relatively secular, there exists provisions that are undoubtly influenced by Islamic Common Law.

Whilst this maybe true the point I was trying to make was that the fact that the people arrested are Christian is irrelevant. As you've mentioned, it's a broad law which encompasses many views, including those of Muslims.

The debate which this thread should inspire is whether this law is valid within a country which aspires to Membership of the EU.

 

[HannibalBarka]

I don't understand, does Civ General support legally indicting people who exercise homosexuallity? Does he believe homosexuals should be tried and imprisoned? I believe he simply said he finds homosexuality immoral according to his beliefs.
Now tell me how that equates to oppressing homosexuals?

Well CG does. And I am sure that is not going to change your opinion about the peaceful natue of Christianty and the violent nature of Islam