Christian converts on trial in Turkey

[GenMarshall]

And yes, sexual "liberation" (I would NOT call it that! Not at all! There is NO freedom to say NO, really! Not without being called terrible names or thought nuts like CivGeneral is)

You know, I really dislike it when people refer to me as nuts, especially from another Christian .

 

[Shaihulud]

I always suspected that closet homosexuals are the most vociferous anti gay proponents. This has been demonstrated quite a few times with paedophiliac priests and that recent popular American evangelist. Are you sure that you aren't one, Civgeneral? You are awefully defensive about this issue and insistent about the immorality of it. Anyway this thread isn't about gays, but insulting nations. I can see those Christians being prosecuted because they did genuinely insulted some ideals of Turkey, or being percieved to. Not all countries are similar, especially a predominantly Islamic country like Turkey, such an insult can bring on civil disorder if the authorities did not take action. For example in Malaysia, although it is supposedly a secular state, it is legally impossible for a Muslim to convert to a non-Muslim. Some Muslims that have converted regardless, are threatened with violence and sent death threats.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Actually, Christians would be happy as punch if EVERYONE, not just gays, but those of ALL sexual persuasions were D-I-S-C-R-E-T-E !!!

I would be happy as punch if everyone, not just christians who practise religion would be discrete. Uhmm... that is D-I-S-C-R-E-T-E.

But I can't force them and have to put up with them. The same goes for you with regard to homosexuality. Don't want to see it, don't watch. It's harder to avoid seeing a church than seeing two gays kissing. So please, quit yer complaining.

 

[Mott1]

I always suspected that closet homosexuals are the most vociferous anti gay proponents. This has been demonstrated quite a few times with paedophiliac priests and that recent popular American evangelist. Are you sure that you aren't one, Civgeneral? You are awefully defensive about this issue and insistent about the immorality of it. Anyway this thread isn't about gays, but insulting nations. I can see those Christians being prosecuted because they did genuinely insulted some ideals of Turkey, or being percieved to. Not all countries are similar, especially a predominantly Islamic country like Turkey, such an insult can bring on civil disorder if the authorities did not take action. For example in Malaysia, although it is supposedly a secular state, it is legally impossible for a Muslim to convert to a non-Muslim. Some Muslims that have converted regardless, are threatened with violence and sent death threats.

I believe this thread is about christian converts being tried in a Turk court of law under article 301, for expressing their faith.
Its not about "insulting nations" or ridiculing Christian views on homosexuallity.

Article 301 has been used to prosecute journalists, human rights defenders and civil rights activists and you seem to find that acceptable yet you find Christian views on homosexuallity intolerable.
Perhaps you would like to advocate a law similar to article 301 of the turkish penal code in your own country were atheist converts from the State religion are prosecuted for "insulting the nation."

 

[nonconformist]

Sorry, but it does NOT work like that. The Government should stay out of the affairs on what is blasphemy or not. I have the right to insult Islam and I dont want to be imprisoned because I am a Christian.

Holy hypocritical ogical fallancy, Batman.

I am sorry, but this does not apply to homosexuals because they are a different people.

Jesus H. Christ, they're a "different people"? What's so different about them?

Okay, let's take your statement here about denying rights tot he different.

"This does not apply to Jews, because they're different".
But that's alright, because God's on my side!

"This does not apply to blacks, because they're different".

See where this is going?

To deny rights to people, based on your own personal ignorance, bigotry, and twisted sense of morality, is fascistic, it's oppressive, it's hypocritical, and it's wrong.
If you don't pull your head out of the sand, you're really gonna piss a lot of people off.

Who died and made you God?

 

[Shaihulud]

I believe this thread is about christian converts being tried in a Turk court of law under article 301, for expressing their faith.
Its not about "insulting nations" or ridiculing Christian views on homosexuallity.

Article 301 has been used to prosecute journalists, human rights defenders and civil rights activists and you seem to find that acceptable yet you find Christian views on homosexuallity intolerable.
Perhaps you would like to advocate a law similar to article 301 of the turkish penal code in your own country were atheist converts from the State religion are prosecuted for "insulting the nation."

Ha! You are talking about Singapore who has recently jailed 2 person for publishing unflattering remarks about Muslims on the internet, they called it "inciting hatred" as well and were sentenced under the sedition acts. I believed that the Christians convert in this case was charged for inciting hatred as well, or this words appears in the article. In this case, it might even be worse, as they are Christian converts trying to subvert the main religion of their country. I have never expressed any distaste for the Christians homophobic tendency, I only stated an observation that has proven right quite often.

 

[Mott1]

Ha! You are talking about Singapore who has recently jailed 2 person for publishing unflattering remarks about Muslims on the internet, they called it "inciting hatred" as well and were sentenced under the sedition acts. I believed that the Christians convert in this case was charged for inciting hatred as well, or this words appears in the article. In this case, it might even be worse, as they are Christian converts trying to subvert the main religion of their country.

No, I was speaking of the journalists, human rights defenders and civil rights activists who were prosecuted under article 301, particularly Turk born Nobel Prize-winner Orhan Pamuk who was prosecuted under article 301 for speaking the truth about the Armenian Genocide.

The two Turkish Christian converts were not inciting hatred, or "insulting Turkishness," they were publically proselytizing and criticizing Islam.

"I am a Turk, I am a Turkish citizen. I don't accept the accusations of insulting 'Turkishness,'" Anatolia quoted Tastan as telling the court. "I am a Christian, that's true. I explain the Bible ... to people who want to learn. I am innocent."

True criminals aren't they?


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/11/23/AR2006112300768.html

I have never expressed any distaste for the Christians homophobic tendency, I only stated an observation that has proven right quite often.

Fair enough but It was a general remark and not directed specifically to you.

It's amusing how this thread evolved into Ridiculing Christian views on homosexuality, actually I expected it.
I've noted that every thread Katheryn creates ends with her defending her faith.

 

[Shaihulud]

Prosecutors accuse the two of allegedly telling possible converts that Islam was "a primitive and fabricated" religion and that Turks would remain "barbarians" as long they continued practicing Islam, Anatolia reported.

I can see how calling Islam a primitive and fabricated religion might consitute an insult. This is what the prosecutors claimed, of course and the onus of proving it is up to them.

It's amusing how this thread evolved into Ridiculing Christian views on homosexuality, actually I expected it.
I've noted that every thread Katheryn creates ends with her defending her faith.

Oh, i don't think we should blame Katheryn at all.

 

[El_Machinae]

I continue to wonder what type of 'burden of proof' is required?

 

[PrinceOfLeigh]

Well this thread got dragged into another God Thread as perhaps I should have assumed it would. I suppose it really is too much to ask that people read more than the Thread Title before posting.

A few said it on the first page but that has now been lost inside another moralistic preach fest. I'll say it again however before I unsubscribe.

The fact these people are converted Christians is irrelevant. That is not their crime. Their crime is "insulting Turkishness" achieved by critising Islam. If anyone can show me the exact law forbbidding Christians from preaching and converting others to Christianity I'd like to see it.

The issue is one of free speech, not religious freedom.

I do feel the right to impose and force my views onto others and don't care if they hurt others.

I really hope there's a typo in there somewhere and this is not what you meant.

Can you imagime if it was the other way round. Had a christian converted to islam in a christian nation. Oh wait it wouldn't mater.

A Muslim converting to Christianity doesn't matter in Turkey either if you read the article properly.

Unfortunately, their laws on condemning Muslim converts to Christianity is something that I do not like.

Which law is that specifically? Which Law says that it is illegal to convert to Christianity?

 

[Bill3000]

In fact, I am certain that adultery is 10 times worse than homosexuality.

I know that MobBoss feels different; that all sin is equal.

 

[GenMarshall]

I really hope there's a typo in there somewhere and this is not what you meant.

Next time, read my other thread before jumping in assuming that I hold those views that I no longer hold.
A Muslim converting to Christianity doesn't matter in Turkey either if you read the article properly.

Which law is that specifically? Which Law says that it is illegal to convert to Christianity?

Well its illegal for a Muslim to commit apostasy under Islamic law, is it not?

 

[PrinceOfLeigh]

Next time, read my other thread before jumping in assuming that I hold those views that I no longer hold.

I was commenting upon your views at the time of posting. I'm not going to follow you round like a little lap dog to make sure that you've not now changed your mind each time you post something.

Well its illegal for a Muslim to commit apostasy under Islamic law, is it not?

Turkey is a secular state. It's not governed by Islamic Law so your question is irrelevant to the topic of this thread.

 

[GenMarshall]

Turkey is a secular state. It's not governed by Islamic Law so your question is irrelevant to the topic of this thread.

Then why is this Christian Convert on trial then? Why is he placed on trial because he "insulted "Turkishness" and inciting religious hatred against Islam"? Does not sound to me that Turkey is a secular state if they arrested him for trying to incite religious hatred against Islam.

 

[PrinceOfLeigh]

Then why is this Christian Convert on trial then? Why is he placed on trial because he "insulted "Turkishness" and inciting religious hatred against Islam"? Does not sound to me that Turkey is a secular state if they arrested him for trying to incite religious hatred against Islam.

Read the article. In Turkey "insulting Turkishness" is a crime. He did this by stating that:

that Turks would remain "barbarians" as long they continued practicing Islam, Anatolia reported.

The prosecutors also accused them of speaking out against the country's compulsory military service, and compiling databases on possible converts.

It's not a law that I agree with but as I said before, Christians are trying to turn this into a freedom of religion issue when it is nothing of the sort.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Then why is this Christian Convert on trial then? Why is he placed on trial because he "insulted "Turkishness" and inciting religious hatred against Islam"? Does not sound to me that Turkey is a secular state if they arrested him for trying to incite religious hatred against Islam.

I think there's a law that sais you can't incite hatred towards any group of people. What defines that group (religion, sexual orientation, skincolour) is irrelevant.

 

[GenMarshall]

Read the article. In Turkey "insulting Turkishness" is a crime. He did this by stating that:

It's not a law that I agree with but as I said before, Christians are trying to turn this into a freedom of religion issue when it is nothing of the sort.

Some how it should be more of a freedom of speech issue. I even have the right to criticize my country and government without being persecuted. Are the Turks afraid of the freedom of speech?

 

[PrinceOfLeigh]

Some how it should be more of a freedom of speech issue. I even have the right to criticize my country and government without being persecuted. Are the Turks afraid of the freedom of speech?

Possibly so. There have been other cases of "insulting Turkishness" such as the author who wrote of the actions in Armenia. It's a Law I'm grateful we don't have here. I also don't see how such a law can be compatible with entry into the European Union.

 

[Bill3000]

Possibly so. There have been other cases of "insulting Turkishness" such as the author who wrote of the actions in Armenia. It's a Law I'm grateful we don't have here. I also don't see how such a law can be compatible with entry into the European Union.

It's quite in spirit with other free speech restriction laws in Germany and France, and highlights why these types of laws are dangerous.

Turkey sucks anyway. Give Constantinople back, please.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Possibly so. There have been other cases of "insulting Turkishness" such as the author who wrote of the actions in Armenia. It's a Law I'm grateful we don't have here. I also don't see how such a law can be compatible with entry into the European Union.

I think there have been imams on trial in the Netherlands for inciting hatred and preaching extremism in mosques. But, granted, it wasn't insulting dutchiness.