Christianity and the graven image

[Bozo Erectus]

Exodus 20:4
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

Leviticus 26:1
Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.

My question is mainly directed at Christians, but of course anyone is welcome to chime in, as long as it doesnt turn into an attack on Christianity, thats not my intention.

How does Christianity reconcile these prohibitions in the Scripture against the worship of graven images, and the veneration of the crucifix? In most denominations, an enormous graven image of Jesus on the cross is the focal point of the church. Is there soime sort of accepted theological explanation for that apparent contradiction?

 

[cgannon64]

The crucifix is a symbol, not an idol. We do not worship the cross: we worship the person it represents.

 

[classical_hero]

Exodus 20:4
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

Leviticus 26:1
Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.

My question is mainly directed at Christians, but of course anyone is welcome to chime in, as long as it doesnt turn into an attack on Christianity, thats not my intention.

How does Christianity reconcile these prohibitions in the Scripture against the worship of graven images, and the veneration of the crucifix? In most denominations, an enormous graven image of Jesus on the cross is the focal point of the church. Is there soime sort of accepted theological explanation for that apparent contradiction?

If you go to churches that are similar to mine, you will not see one single graven image. The only way you can tell it is Church if by the fact that on our building we have a series of glasses in the shape of a cross. That is realy the only way you could tell it was a church, and also bu our sign in front of it. You will not see a single graven image.

 

[Erik Mesoy]

In most denominations, an enormous graven image of Jesus on the cross is the focal point of the church. Is there some sort of accepted theological explanation for that apparent contradiction?

Not my denomination. In my current church, the closest thing to an icon is the priest's robe. (He has about five of them for different parts of the liturgical year.) In my previous church, there was a crucifix standing in the windowsill at the back, and it was smaller than the Bible on the altar.

The prohibition is directed against making 'small gods' that one worships.

 

[classical_hero]

The crucifix is a symbol, not an idol. We do not worship the cross: we worship the person it represents.

An idol is basically anything that tkes your focus off God. In most sense it is referring a made object but in the purest sense just about anything can be an idol, even playing civ, especially if it takes your focus away from God. With your cross, is Jesus stil on the cross?

 

[downtown]

This is part of the reason you dont see big ol' crosses and whatnot in Mormon churches. I suspect this is mainly a catholic thing. None of the protestant churches in my hometown (and there are a LOT) have large crucifix displays or graven images.

 

[Elrohir]

Exodus 20:4
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

Leviticus 26:1
Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.

My question is mainly directed at Christians, but of course anyone is welcome to chime in, as long as it doesnt turn into an attack on Christianity, thats not my intention.

How does Christianity reconcile these prohibitions in the Scripture against the worship of graven images, and the veneration of the crucifix? In most denominations, an enormous graven image of Jesus on the cross is the focal point of the church. Is there soime sort of accepted theological explanation for that apparent contradiction?

Context man, context. You can't understand anything if you don't know the context, and Scripture is no exception. Let's look at the next sentence, in Exodus 20:5 - "You shall not bow down to them or worship them....."

So in other words, the problem is not making images of things, it's of worshipping them. Unless you're worshipping the cross, there's no problem is having big crosses all over the place. As Cgannon said, it's a symbol of Christ's sacrafice, not an idol.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Wouldnt any pre Christian pagan say the same thing though, that they were worshipping what the symbol represents, and not the symbol itself? Or Hindus today for that matter? How about burning incense in front of a Buddha statue and meditating? I honestly dont see much difference between that and burning a candle in front of a crucifix or statue of the Virgin, and praying.

Classical and Eric, what denomination are you guys, and Matt I take it youre a Mormon?

 

[Erik Mesoy]

I have no idea what denomination Eric is, or who you're talking to, or why this keeps happening after I state in loud letters that my name isn't spelt that way. It annoys me that I've had to bring this up about once a month for the last year.

Lutheran (i.e. Protestant), specific affiliation to Messiaskirken (Church of the Messiah).

 

[El_Machinae]

Context man, context. You can't understand anything if you don't know the context, and Scripture is no exception. Let's look at the next sentence, in Exodus 20:5 - "You shall not bow down to them or worship them....."

Wouldn't that refer to ones that someone else made? I could be two separate rules: don't make your own, and don't bow down to others' either. Instead of just one rule: don't make your own TO bow down to.

 

[cgannon64]

An idol is basically anything that tkes your focus off God. In most sense it is referring a made object but in the purest sense just about anything can be an idol, even playing civ, especially if it takes your focus away from God. With your cross, is Jesus stil on the cross?

Yes, Catholics are the hardcore "depict the suffering and the man" people.

 

[bhsup]

I view the crucifix as more of an identifier than anything else. I assure you, I'm not going to lose any sleep or wail and do the gnashing of teeth thing of the crucifix in my church (behind the choir and baptism chamber) was destroyed somehow.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

I was raised as a Catholic. When I think of all the praying to graven images I saw when growing up, it makes my head spin. I remember my grandmother very solemnly giving me a Scapulario and telling me to keep it with me always, so that if I suddenly died, Id go straight to Heaven.

 

[GenMarshall]

The crucifix is a symbol, not an idol. We do not worship the cross: we worship the person it represents.

Agree. The images such as the Crusifix as well as pictures and Icons (Icons in the Eastern Orthodox Christianity) are just symbols and representation. They are not graven images for they dont take our focus away from God. Catholic theology expressly affirms that the image of Christ receives the same latria or worship that is due to God; see St. Thomas, Summa, III, 25, 3. In the case of an image of a saint, the worship would not be latria but rather dulia, while the Blessed Virgin Mary receives hyperdulia. The worship of whatever type, latria, hyperdulia, or dulia, can be considered to go through the icon, image, or statue: "The honor given to an image reaches to the prototype" (St. John Damascene in Summa).

Also, why do Catholics kneel down on one knee when they see the tabernacle before they take a seat? Its not a form of idolitary that we as Catholics kneel before the tabernacle. It is because Catholics believe in the real presence of Christ in the host (Eucharist). Its also not idolitary that we see the bread and wine turning into the actual body and blood of Christ (Transubstantiation) for we believe that Christ is actualy present in the bread and wine.

 

[classical_hero]

Wouldnt any pre Christian pagan say the same thing though, that they were worshipping what the symbol represents, and not the symbol itself? Or Hindus today for that matter? How about burning incense in front of a Buddha statue and meditating? I honestly dont see much difference between that and burning a candle in front of a crucifix or statue of the Virgin, and praying.

Classical and Eric, what denomination are you guys, and Matt I take it youre a Mormon?

I am a baptist. But my church does not belong to a tyopical denomination because all decisions are made directly by the Church members.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

History has a way of repeating itself. The sect of Judaism known as Christianity became known as Roman Catholicism when it was adopted by Rome. The rampant imagery we see in Catholicism today stems from the Romanization of the religion. For many centuries, the Romans had been praying to images of Gods and Goddesses, and they werent about to stop because of a few prohibitions in the stuffy old Old Testament. The Papal Vestments, and many aspects of the Catholic Mass, are so similar to their Roman pagan versions, that an ancient Roman would feel right at home. Now its happening again. That Judaic sect known as Christianity has spread around the globe, and today, the Roman Catholic Church is struggling to prevent the faith from turning into the African Catholic Church in Africa, where the same exact process is occuring as the local cultures remake it and blend it with their own traditional beliefs. It happened in the Carribean with Santeria and Voodoo among the African slaves, and its also happening in Latin America among the native people, who are injecting Aztec charecteristics into it. When the religion reached Northern Europe it also changed there, and became Protestantism, and much of the idolatry was removed again. Its wild wacky stuff. More and more, I think thast if one wants to be a true 'Christian' he or she should convert to Judaism.

edit:

I am a baptist. But my church does not belong to a tyopical denomination because all decisions are made directly by the Church members.

Thats the best way to run a religion. A religious institution that doesnt take into account the opinions of its members is doomed to fail, which is why Catholicism has been in its death throes for centuries now. Its taking long because it had so far to fall.

What a coincidence, we were both in the process of bumping the thread at the same moment!

 

[classical_hero]

I was just answering your question.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Yeah I know...Is there a problem?

 

[.Shane.]

What, exactly, is a "graven" image?

 

[Atropos]

What, exactly, is a "graven" image?

A carved one (e.g. a statue).