[Civ 5] Rise of Mankind design discussion

[Arrorn]

what would wheat/other food stuff be used for?

Offset unit maintenance? Increase city growth?

 

[Malchar]

what would wheat/other food stuff be used for?

Offset unit maintenance? Increase city growth?

While those are both good ideas, you could also have buildings make reference to it. For example, a granary could provide +1 food per wheat resource. Or you could have the quantity of food play a role in determining your civilization's "health" status. You could also have corporations consume them if and when corporations are added.

 

[testeddoughnut]

Hey hey,
I really like playing RoM and AND, and had a couple ideas I'd like to bring to the table.

Firstly regarding civics and social policies:
I was thinking it'd be neat to bring civics back, but have social policies attached to them. Civics would be technology based, like in Civ4, and Social Policies would still be cultural based, like in Civ5. So if you had slavery early game, you could use social policies to "level it up" (like having a policy for "Public Crucifixion" that would reduce local rebelliousness, for example). So if a better civic comes around, such as free market, it's harder to change to it since you have incentives to stay on slavery.

Second, private sector market and research:
Another dynamic I was was thinking would be interesting is if there was a private sector market in the game. It would be defined by the civics that you choose, so like if you had free market, that means you would lose some some direct control over the market (meaning lower upkeep per turn due to not having direct control over many of the buildings, but also less gold per turn due to only getting profit from many of the buildings due to taxes) and research (you could provide incentives on what to research, but not get to directly choose), but get increase productivity and research as a result. Might be a little complicated to implement, but I thought it would be a neat dynamic that more accurately represents real life.

 

[Malchar]

Firstly regarding civics and social policies:
I was thinking it'd be neat to bring civics back, but have social policies attached to them. Civics would be technology based, like in Civ4, and Social Policies would still be cultural based, like in Civ5. So if you had slavery early game, you could use social policies to "level it up" (like having a policy for "Public Crucifixion" that would reduce local rebelliousness, for example). So if a better civic comes around, such as free market, it's harder to change to it since you have incentives to stay on slavery.

I like this idea. It was similar to something that I was thinking about all along but couldn't really formulate it correctly. To add to this, you could have golden ages allow for extra ability to switch civics, like in Civ 4. The golden age could let you switch into a prohibited tree while getting a partial refund on your old policies or something like that. Or perhaps you could sell off old policies for a culture refund.

 

[Ogaburan]

I like this idea. It was similar to something that I was thinking about all along but couldn't really formulate it correctly. To add to this, you could have golden ages allow for extra ability to switch civics, like in Civ 4. The golden age could let you switch into a prohibited tree while getting a partial refund on your old policies or something like that. Or perhaps you could sell off old policies for a culture refund.

Was also thinking in those line.
I really like how testeddoughnut & Malchar formulated it.

I hope Zappara is listening, and if this is doable we should open a threat to brain-storm properly.

We really need a civ5 forum for "Zappars Civ5"...

 

[Hydromancerx]

ahahaha, NO Kind of ironic.

Here then take alook at this: (look at stuff BEFORE Ritualism. I have since put more but you get the feel of it.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9541730&postcount=876

Ok here is an attempt at a prehistoric tech tree using yours, mine and other resources. (See attachment) Note that slavery should probably be an ancient tech and not a prehistoric tech.

 

[zappara]

Added Tekener and poncratias to 2D artist list. If I've missed anyone else who wants to join RoM team, let me know.

@Ogaburan

I'm listening and reading everything you post even though I don't always have time to reply to all posts. Good ideas are flying around and saw Afforess release Tech Diffusion mod which is cool to have.

About civics and social policies - originally I wanted RoM to have civic/social policy system just like it was implemented in SMAC. Civ 5's social system is bit like SMAC's but it doesn't allow player to change policies inside one category... which I would want to be able to do (as in SMAC). Now this isn't final or anything but just an idea I've been toying with - I think it still needs some refining:

Each social policy category could have 3 levels (tier 1,2 and 3) of policies and access to each level is limited with techs and with culture costs (or a new point system if we decide to make such change). Each category would hold 6 or 9 policy choices (each level 2 or 3 policies) in tree like formation - kind of like it's now in Civ 5. The point accumulation would be increased drastically to allow player to switch social policies inside categories quite often (like 5-10 turns would be enough to get points for a revolution). Early game it would be quite easy to change between policies that are on tier 1, in mid game you would have access also to tier 2 choices but changing those would cost lot more and in late game you'd get access to tier 3 policies which would be really expensive - this means that the foundation of your empire is cheap to decide but tweaking it to maximum would cost a lot of points and in late game tier 3 policy changes would occur only a few times per empire (since it would most likely change totally how your empire works).

Now, what do you think? I'm not that good at expressing these ideas on foreign language

 

[Ogaburan]

@Zappara,

Well, seems like you already figured everything out.
Have also made a draft myself so im quite eager to see your own ideas.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Ok here is an attempt at a prehistoric tech tree using yours, mine and other resources. (See attachment) Note that slavery should probably be an ancient tech and not a prehistoric tech.

Good work. A few minor points.

Gathering and Scavenging are the same thing, ie they are synonyms.

P Music and P Dance should lead to Ritualism not the other way around. P Dance should be a requirement for the barracks building, drill y'know

Pottery was around long before the wheel. I would put it off basketry.

Pigments? This does not sound like a tech but what the tech shows. Also what about representational art all those cave, cliff and wall paintings.

Bone Carving - don't understand this one. Why not just carving?

Also you have left out

• Rehtoric(sp?) the art of arguing your case.
• Geometry - precursor to the generic mathematics and needed to build the pyramids
• Advanced barter = first contracts, ie not exchange now (= barter) but in the future eg I give you a lamb now for two baskets of grain at harvest time. Maybe this is what trade means, but then it should be earlier.
• Ancestor Worship

 

[DrwHem]

can we do something about the opaqueness of the diplomacy system? other than the random civ insulting me i really have no idea about how civs feel about me or eachother. this makes it hard to see who would be willing to ally with me against a specific civ.
also trading needs to be tweaked. when an empire needs a resource, say silk for ex., they make 150 gpt but are only willing to give me 8 gpt for silk and i have the only supply in the world. can we make the AI value resources more? especially real life expensive resources like gold,silk, and oil.
and finally, would there be a way to have empires live long enough to actually be met by me? I always play huge maps with 15 civs and by the time i hit turn 300 6 civs have been wiped out and now there is a huge super civ on the other continent. is it me or does it seem like civs are weaker or stronger? in civ4 it would take awhile for someone to get wiped out, not 300 turns.

 

[Ogaburan]

@Hydro

Here are my 2 cents:

1. I think Toll making should be a first "standalone" tech.
2. Weaving is a way more advanced ability comes from hunting and that should lead to sailing.
3. Tool making should lead to basketry.
4. Pigments? Im not even sure i know what you mean by that... (and it seems im not the only one lol)
5. A question - Stationary\Nomadic lifestyle? Where are you going with this?
Zappara has a nice idea of frequent policies change under a "government". SO those two can be policies under "Tribalism" as a government.

 

[Malchar]

Mysticism requires shamanism and ceremonial burial, but ceremonial burial already requires shamanism.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Good work. A few minor points.

Gathering and Scavenging are the same thing, ie they are synonyms.

P Music and P Dance should lead to Ritualism not the other way around. P Dance should be a requirement for the barracks building, drill y'know

Pottery was around long before the wheel. I would put it off basketry.

Pigments? This does not sound like a tech but what the tech shows. Also what about representational art all those cave, cliff and wall paintings.

Bone Carving - don't understand this one. Why not just carving?

Also you have left out

• Rehtoric(sp?) the art of arguing your case.
• Geometry - precursor to the generic mathematics and needed to build the pyramids
• Advanced barter = first contracts, ie not exchange now (= barter) but in the future eg I give you a lamb now for two baskets of grain at harvest time. Maybe this is what trade means, but then it should be earlier.
• Ancestor Worship

1. The way i sepearted gathering and scavenging is that gathering was plants (fruit, berries, roots, nuts, etc) while scavenging was animals (dead animals, shellfish, bugs, etc).

2. I figured that ritualism meant that they do the same social patterns or "rituals". I thought they had to come first before ritualism. Also why would dance be part of the barracks?

3. Again a remnantof RoM. I agree. Potter came before the wheel, however it is arguable if the wheel came from pottery and not as a mode of transportation first.

4. Pigments is for Natural Pigments. Its discovering "dye resource" in the game but made to be a pre-requite to petroglyphs (aka. cave paintings) and Personal Adornment (aka. body painting).

5. It was "Bone Working" however i suppose there could be a carving tech. Its to separate it from say working with wood or stone or metals. Remember there are some tools/weapons that are bone based such as beads, bone needles, harpoons, fish hooks, etc. In fact "Bead Making" maybe should be a tech. It could be a pre-requite to trade or something and require personal adornment too.

6. Rhetoric? Um ok. Maybe its better called like "Debate" or something.

7. Geometry is put in a later tech. Note that pyramids are an Ancient Era wonder not Prehistoric Era.

8. Advanced barter needs a better name. I think its included with "Trade" tech.

9. Hmm "Ancestor Worship" sounds like a good one.

@Hydro

Here are my 2 cents:

*tech tree*

1. I think Toll making should be a first "standalone" tech.
2. Weaving is a way more advanced ability comes from hunting and that should lead to sailing.
3. Tool making should lead to basketry.
4. Pigments? Im not even sure i know what you mean by that... (and it seems im not the only one lol)
5. A question - Stationary\Nomadic lifestyle? Where are you going with this?
Zappara has a nice idea of frequent policies change under a "government". SO those two can be policies under "Tribalism" as a government.

1. What do you mean "Toll Making" or do you mean "Tool"? If "toll" then that would be a later tech for say toll roads. If "tool" then i have no idea what you mean by "stand alone"? Because you cannot make tools without "gathering" materials to make the tool. Thus "tool making" should require "scavenging" and in turn also already required "gathering".

2. Weaving is not that advanced. We are talking about like weaving floor mats and that stuff to begin with. All the stuff by hand. Note this is not sewing or advanced loom weaving. Also sailing if you look requires weaving

Gathering -> Weaving -> Basketry -> Trapping -> Trap Fishing -> Boat Building -> Boat Fishing -> Sailing

3. What tools do you need to make baskets? You just use your hands to weave plant fibers together.

4. Pigments mean pre-paint. Such as colored dirt, ash, plant juices, etc. Basiclly the "dye" resource.

5. Nomadic lifestyle mean they have no cities yet but have mobile "encampments" that can pick up and move around the map. The "encampments" can research and produce units but cannot defend, build buildings (except for special cases), work more than one plot of land or grow past level 1. Sedentary Lifestyle on the other hand can build permanent cities that do everything a Civ5 city can do.

EDIT: Ok I added an updated tech tree with some changes we discussed. Feedback is appreciated.

 

[Ogaburan]

1. What do you mean "Toll Making" or do you mean "Tool"? If "toll" then that would be a later tech for say toll roads. If "tool" then i have no idea what you mean by "stand alone"? Because you cannot make tools without "gathering" materials to make the tool. Thus "tool making" should require "scavenging" and in turn also already required "gathering".

2. Weaving is not that advanced. We are talking about like weaving floor mats and that stuff to begin with. All the stuff by hand. Note this is not sewing or advanced loom weaving. Also sailing if you look requires weaving

Gathering -> Weaving -> Basketry -> Trapping -> Trap Fishing -> Boat Building -> Boat Fishing -> Sailing

3. What tools do you need to make baskets? You just use your hands to weave plant fibers together.

4. Pigments mean pre-paint. Such as colored dirt, ash, plant juices, etc. Basiclly the "dye" resource.

5. Nomadic lifestyle mean they have no cities yet but have mobile "encampments" that can pick up and move around the map. The "encampments" can research and produce units but cannot defend, build buildings (except for special cases), work more than one plot of land or grow past level 1. Sedentary Lifestyle on the other hand can build permanent cities that do everything a Civ5 city can do.

1. lol, i meant tool making. And there are actually studies that prove that tool making is possible without "gathering". Chips in the Congo make tools on-the-spot to get termites from termite nests. Not much gathering needed, unless u call picking up a stick as a "gathering technology".

But its more or less semantics. Its just how i view things.

2. I stand my grounds on the weaving tho.
Weaving is a really advanced technology, you need to be able to make a needle first... then harvest the materials needed either hives or wool.
Early floor mats (and some modern ones) are made by tanning.

3. The tools to cut down the bark of the tree used to make the basket? I am unaware of any kind of fiber baskets, but then again i didn't know some goats have wool about a year ago.

4. Did you mean basically? lol. The only problem with this tech is i dont see any use it can have in game. Maybe to reveal dyes?

5. Was just trying to give you advice about interesting in game implications. Seems you also gave it some tough.

 

[Hydromancerx]

1. lol, i meant tool making. And there are actually studies that prove that tool making is possible without "gathering". Chips in the Congo make tools on-the-spot to get termites from termite nests. Not much gathering needed, unless u call picking up a stick as a "gathering technology".

But its more or less semantics. Its just how i view things.

2. I stand my grounds on the weaving tho.
Weaving is a really advanced technology, you need to be able to make a needle first... then harvest the materials needed either hives or wool.
Early floor mats (and some modern ones) are made by tanning.

3. The tools to cut down the bark of the tree used to make the basket? I am unaware of any kind of fiber baskets, but then again i didn't know some goats have wool about a year ago.

4. Did you mean basically? lol. The only problem with this tech is i dont see any use it can have in game. Maybe to reveal dyes?

5. Was just trying to give you advice about interesting in game implications. Seems you also gave it some tough.

1. Yes, gathering basically means "collecting". So yeah collecting sticks would be a form of gathering.

2. You don't need a needle for "weaving" you need a needle for "sewing" which is a more advanced technology. Basiclly your weaving stuff like mats or rope. Neither need a needle to make. Though rope making probably should have its own technology. Or at least knot tying (later era tech).

then harvest the materials needed either hives or wool.

"Hives"? I assume you mean "hides", and yes hides or wool would be "sewing" not "weaving". However if it was hides, then perhaps we need a "tanning" tech for making leather.

3. Baskets can be made from grasses and reeds. You can always just pull the bark off some trees too. But mainly it would be reeds I would think.

4. I said pigments is to reveal dye resource.

5. Um, ok.

EDIT: Ok here is an updated tree with some "Golden Age" techs.

 

[OMG!!!]

Too many techs if you ask me, some like gathering or tribalism are assumed as default in any human society. Sedentary lifestyle drives to agriculture instead of the other way around, etc.

 

[chueche]

For me cant be enough techs. Go ahead guys. More is more

 

[Galacticat42]

For anyone interested (probably the Hydro Man(cerx) for the most part), I wrote up a nice little intro for the Civ V version of ATOM along with some redone techs that seemed off or redundant to me.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

@Hydro, any dance instructor will tell you that getting people to fight in formation is dance, so the drill that soldiers still do is a form of dance.

Early stone working, beads and jars for example were done using grass drills. When they discovered they could make circular ('O' shape) drills from copper the waste turned out to be exactly what the jewelers had been mixing to make their "fake" or galaze beads with. (It takes about 5 hours to drill one bead using grass.)

Dilli bags are woven baskets and have been around for yonks as they appear in cave art.

 

[Arakhor]

A hydromancer is a water mage. The x is optional