[R&F] Civ of the Week: Egypt

Who should be next weeks Civ?

  • Cree (equal first with Egypt last week)

    Votes: 21 31.3%
  • Greece (two leaders for the price of one!)

    Votes: 11 16.4%
  • Norway (and their shiny new Berserker?)

    Votes: 12 17.9%
  • Nubia (and their elimination thread winning archer?)

    Votes: 9 13.4%
  • Sumeria (and their (almost) elimination thread winning donkey wagon?)

    Votes: 7 10.4%
  • Sythia (and... no, it's just Sythia)

    Votes: 7 10.4%

  • Total voters
    67
  • Poll closed .
Yep they are easily the most money making Civ in the game (now that England sucks). Egypt might be #2. I didn't vote for Cree since they are still so new and I've played them a fair amount recently. I'm more likely to vote for Civs I haven't played in a while. I voted for Egypt for that reason, I hadn't played them in a while and wanted to really explore their unique bonuses more.
Nah, Egypt gets rich earlier. The Mekewap needs an odd tech path for the gold boost. Egypt doesnt have to do anything and gets like 25 gpt after foreign trade. Even trade routes from city states add +2 gpt each. CH spam is also slower with the Cree. It's an amazing civ though.

After playing another 150 turns with this CH rush and spam strategy on a much better map and more focus on optimal use of the district discount mechanism, Egypt is now in my personal top 5 list. They reach 100 gold per turn where other civs dont even have a 2nd trade route yet. That's a builder every 3 turns.
200 gpt a couple of turns later and you can rushbuy universities every 5 turns. xD
 
Cree gets a free trader (not just trade route) at pottery and that automatically boosts currency. You need it for writing too.Cree will probably have 2 trade routes and could be working on their third while Egypt is struggling to make one. If they grab a single tile, that's the equivalent of dozens of turns of trade from 1 trade route anyways. And they aren't restricted to foreign trade either.

But that's for the next week anyways.

Yep they are easily the most money making Civ in the game (now that England sucks). Egypt might be #2.

Cree is probably the best. I also think Germany, Aztec, and Japan are also solid contenders for hub spam but very behind Cree but that is due to them being all-rounders. Then behind them, I'd put Brazil, Kongo, and Egypt. . Don't have Australia, but I hear they're pretty good at everything too.
 
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Cree gets a free trader (not just trade route) at pottery and that automatically boosts currency. You need it for writing too.Cree will probably have 2 trade routes and could be working on their third while Egypt is struggling to make one. If they grab a single tile, that's the equivalent of dozens of turns of trade from 1 trade route anyways. And they aren't restricted to foreign trade either.

But that's for the next week anyways.



Cree is probably the best. I also think Germany, Aztec, and Japan are also solid contenders for hub spam but very behind Cree but that is due to them being all-rounders. Then behind them, I'd put Brazil, Kongo, and Egypt. . Don't have Australia, but I hear they're pretty good at everything too.

Cree is an excellent civ for CH spam but I don't agree with what you are saying here. The +2 gold from trade routes coming from other civs and CS lets Egypt rushbuy their first trader shortly after foreign trade. Sure it's worse than a free trader but the trader itself is more powerful. In early game it gets double the amount of gold per turn as a Cree trader plus the free gold from those incoming traders. Defending one trader is also easier than 2. The 15% bonus production for Chs placed on rivers is the 2nd advantage. The Maryannu is also more potent in case they get attacked.
Egypt doesnt struggle to get more traders. Their civ bonuses all help to get them as fast as possible and every individual trader adds +4 gold per turn which helps to rushbuy more traders and builders to get those CHs and markets up and running asap. With the boosted Oracle in place around turn 60, Egypt also gets great merchants which add more trade routes.
Yes, Cree can do the same strategy but it doesnt snowball as fast as with Egypt. The ability to get level 2 alliances faster is also very nice although free vision from Cree is also amazing. Id say overall, Cree is still the better civ, certainly more beginner friendly, but we can talk about that next week!

Right now, I'm an Egypt fan ^^

Edit: I think I'll write a more in-depth guide about this strategy, probably on the weekend :)
 
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Cree is an excellent civ for CH spam but I don't agree with what you are saying here. The +2 gold from trade routes coming from other civs and CS lets Egypt rushbuy their first trader shortly after foreign trade. Sure it's worse than a free trader but the trader itself is more powerful. In early game it gets double the amount of gold per turn as a Cree trader plus the free gold from those incoming traders.

You're spending 200+ gold upfront to get a 4 gpt advantage over the Cree. Even doing 1:1 routes, I think it's pretty clear Cree gets the early advantage. If you want to argue that foreign routes are riskier, then I'd say that the advantage is even more nullified when facing aggression and Cree would win if they were forced to trade internally.

The 15% bonus production for Chs placed on rivers is the 2nd advantage. The Maryannu is also more potent in case they get attacked.

A bit neutered due to the fact you need a market now. I don't really consider the Chariot Archer very useful for defense. It costs nearly twice as much as a regular archer making it impractical for emergency defense. i suppose you could make 1 to make the bombard attacks from walls better. But then again Egypt automatically falls behind due to lacking a quick way to getting knights. So in terms of defense this is still a loss.

I don't think you can use the term snowball at all. I think over the long term you might be able to get more gold with Egypt using a specific strategy. You could be seeing 40-60 more GPT mid game. But I don't see that happening every time especially if you run into an undesirable map that lacks rivers or face early aggression, or are forced to break out. But there's a certain reason why certain players such as Lily_Lancer don't see value in them though that has much to do with how the game currently works as opposed to actually bad design. I unfortunately have to agree over the massive negative even though I don't like the implication and don't care about optimal play.
 
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Egypt is one of my favourite civs to play it is so fun the build the pyramids in the desert and surround it with sphinxes. The Maryannu Chariot Archer is also a very underrated unit they are not great for attacking cities but in the open they are deadly against any other classical unit. I like everything about the civ, the leader, unit, improvement, abilities and music just feel right. Maybe the one thing I would change would be to give desert tiles the same yield as tundra for egypt ( 1 food, 1 production) also the sphinx could get 0.5 housing. That way Egypt would not have to be so reliant on Petra to thrive in the desert where farms are not available. You could also boost the culture bonus by giving Egypt a mummy relic at the end of the ancient and classical era with the Palace having two free slots for these.
 
I really liked Egypt before but in "they're bad but awesome". This thread has now got me thinking "they're awesome and also awesome"!

I think all they really need is iteru to give say +20% in the ancient and classical and or maybe +1 production from flood plains (maybe then lose the pantheon that does the same thing, or make that pantheon give +1 culture from farms on flood plains - or is that too powerful?). Indeed, after reading this thread, maybe Iteru should just stay as is.

I'd leave the chariot as is. It's either fine as is, or this is just one of Egypt's quirks. They just don't do Knight rushes as a matter of principle.
 
Well, thanks for sharing the CH spam strategy - I gave it a shot and it worked really really well - after a solid start on King I basically spent my production on districts, walls and wonders and buying almost everything else with gold - buildings, army, builders - until I got Reyna promoted - now I'm building projects and wonders and buying the districts as well - was intending to go for science VC but will likely get cultural before I buy my spaceport.

I deliberately went for the UU after I beelined the CH tech, and between barbs and early warmongering (I had to, ok, Gorgo was expanding into my Petra city's area) I got to use them - eange and mobility is fun, but them upgrading into crossbows felt odd still.
 
You rate the UU combat bonus higher than the +4 gold per international and +2 gold per incoming trade route?.

I guess human players only have 1 trade route before things like Urbanization to burst out gold. So this bonus is +4 gold per turn after you build the trader. 2 point out of 100 is fair enough.
 
I don't play Egypt often, but they definitely feel like one of the weaker civs to me. I actually like everything about their design, I just think they need some slight buffs to put them on par with other civs. As others have stated the Sphinx feels pretty weak compared to other Culture generating UI's, and I don't think extra faith is really worth using pop on in the early game when you desperately need food, hammers and Culture. Perhaps if the additional +1 Culture came earlier they would be alright. Or instead of +2 Faith if next to a Wonder, give +1 Faith and +1 Culture.

I'm fine with the concept of the Chariot archers, but if they're going to lock Egypt out of Knight rushes, I think they should at least reduce the massive production cost.

One cool thing about Egypt is that they really shine in multiplayer team games, where you and your allies can take advantages of their trade bonuses.
 
You're spending 200+ gold upfront to get a 4 gpt advantage over the Cree. Even doing 1:1 routes, I think it's pretty clear Cree gets the early advantage. If you want to argue that foreign routes are riskier, then I'd say that the advantage is even more nullified when facing aggression and Cree would win if they were forced to trade internally.



A bit neutered due to the fact you need a market now. I don't really consider the Chariot Archer very useful for defense. It costs nearly twice as much as a regular archer making it impractical for emergency defense. i suppose you could make 1 to make the bombard attacks from walls better. But then again Egypt automatically falls behind due to lacking a quick way to getting knights. So in terms of defense this is still a loss.

I don't think you can use the term snowball at all. I think over the long term you might be able to get more gold with Egypt using a specific strategy. You could be seeing 40-60 more GPT mid game. But I don't see that happening every time especially if you run into an undesirable map that lacks rivers or face early aggression, or are forced to break out. But there's a certain reason why certain players such as Lily_Lancer don't see value in them though that has much to do with how the game currently works as opposed to actually bad design. I unfortunately have to agree over the massive negative even though I don't like the implication and don't care about optimal play.

Have you even looked at my screenshot? 40-60 gpt? :lol: I had close to 200 gpt on turn 120. And that was on a pretty bad map. Sorry but there's no point in arguing with you when you don't even read the thread xD. Sorry.
1-2 chariot archers and markets can be chopped with Magnus or rushbuy some builders to build mines around each city for fast production.
If you buy a trader early, it's less than 200 gold ... and you continue to ignore the +2 gold per incoming trade route.
Egypt doesnt need knights. It needs alliances in medieval era for double alliance points and boosted international trade routes.

I guess human players only have 1 trade route before things like Urbanization to burst out gold. So this bonus is +4 gold per turn after you build the trader. 2 point out of 100 is fair enough.

1 trade route until Urbanization? We talk about CIV6 right? Also we talk about CH spam, not fastest science victory xD. Somehow ...

I really liked Egypt before but in "they're bad but awesome". This thread has now got me thinking "they're awesome and also awesome"!

Yeah that's the spirit :)
 
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Have you even looked at my screenshot? 40-60 gpt? :lol: I had close to 200 gpt on turn 120. And that was on a pretty bad map. Sorry but there's no point in arguing with you when you don't even read the thread xD. Sorry

Bro I said 40-60 MORE gpt, not 40-60 gpt. Funny how this thing about reading goes. You could have 40-60 GPT without any hubs. As for your screenshot, you have 9 trade routes. 4 more per trade route x9 trade routes =36 more gold. (Gee, I wonder where I pulled them number from) Let's assume you have a 1 commercial hub advantage because of 15% production bonuses, so that's another 12 gpt advantage (Policy card + adjancency + market) however I'm being extremely generous here. And then the occasional trade to you. 40-60 is a pretty reasonable guess and this doesn't even go into the costs of making all of this.

I'm not saying that's a bad thing either, but seriously.

markets can be chopped with Magnus or rushbuy some builders to build mines around each city for fast production.

I hope you realize that kind of trivializes Egypt's bonus, as anyone can chop markets. Egypt just builds the hubs 15% faster. If your argument is that you can 1 turn build both the hub/market by chopping overflow units into it, then there is only a small production bonus. I mean it's there, but my point is 15% faster commercial hub production doesn't translate to you getting trade routes anywhere near 15% faster.

Egypt doesnt need knights. It needs alliances in medieval era for double alliance points and boosted international trade routes.

Well, I mean I suppose military action is optional, but it's also incredibly profitable and ignoring that is ignoring a huge chunk of the game. If you capture 5 more commercial hubs, that would probably mean a lot more gold. You could also extort someone for 40-50 GPT for peace too.

Knights give a very high value for their cost. Just because they're not absolutely needed doesn't mean that's not a disadvantage. Kongo can't found a religion which is hardly needed but still a disadvantage however small. Knights are probably more important than religion though.
 
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Bro I said 40-60 MORE gpt, not 40-60 gpt. Funny how this thing about reading goes. You could have 40-60 GPT without any hubs. As for your screenshot, you have 9 trade routes. 4 more per trade route x9 trade routes =36 more gold. (Gee, I wonder where I pulled them number from) Let's assume you have a 1 commercial hub advantage because of 15% production bonuses, so that's another 12 gpt advantage (Policy card + adjancency + market) however I'm being extremely generous here. And then the occasional trading post through your cities. So 40-60 is a pretty reasonable guess and this doesn't even go into the costs of making all of this.

I'm not saying that's a bad thing either, but seriously.

Yes, I missed that you said "more". My bad. It's just very discouraging to discuss alternative strategies on these forums when there's always someone who criticises everything and is just here to be a negative nay-sayer.
You jumped into the discussion by saying that the Cree begin to work on their 3rd trader when Egypt still struggles to get their first. Exaggerated statements like this are just there to provoke people who like the civ and want to have a fun discussion about it. Because it's simply not true.
An additional 40-60 gpt around turn 120 is pretty damn good in my book (although Crees Mekewaps can certainly kick in by then). And we only compare numbers between Cree and Egypt here. Compare the gold income to any other civ and it's pretty clear that it's a very good civ ability.

I hope you realize that kind of trivializes Egypt's bonus, as anyone can chop markets. Egypt just builds the hubs 15% faster. If your argument is that you can 1 turn build both the hub/market by chopping overflow units into it, then there is only a small production bonus. I mean it's there, but my point is 15% faster commercial hub production doesn't translate to you getting trade routes anywhere near 15% faster.

That's true but the 15% bonus doesn't vanish after the CHs are completed. It just naturally works best with CHs. The bonus continues to be useful because this sort of CH spam unlocks district discounts (-50%!) for all other types of districts. Stack more discount bonuses and adjust your tech path to get as many discounts as possible and Egypt quickly turns into a district spam civ with high gold per turn. So really, it's not just gpt. One strength leads to another. Same with the +25% pantheon. It works particularly well with Egypt. Same with building the Oracle to get those Great Merchants on Deity. +15% production bonus.

Every civ can copy this tactic and use Magnus to chop the wonders and markets but why would they? They'd just be a worse Egypt with a bunch of standard traders. So why even make that argument?

Anyways, I'm sure we actually agree on a lot of things. Overall, I'd still rate the Cree higher than Egypt, especially because they aren't as dependant on the map. I was just surprised how good Egypt actually is and how well their bonuses work together if used correctly.
 
You jumped into the discussion by saying that the Cree begin to work on their 3rd trader when Egypt still struggles to get their first. Exaggerated statements like this are just there to provoke people who like the civ and want to have a fun discussion about it. Because it's simply not true.

I don't think it's an exaggeration and they get this advantage over like, all but 1 civ. (aztec) I mean; does that mean I think every other civ is trash? Of course not. + 1 1/2 trade routes don't win games.

1st trader is a free boost to currency. They get the 2nd trader at the same time everyone else does. Since they can get to currency faster it makes sense that they could have 3 traders if they wanted to while everyone else really only has 1 really working as you can only have 1 without a hub. Plus there's a bunch of smaller things like free tiles that just make things going so much faster.

An additional 40-60 gpt around turn 120
I also suggested that was a good thing.

Every civ can copy this tactic and use Magnus to chop the wonders and markets but why would they? They'd just be a worse Egypt with a bunch of standard traders. So why even make that argument?

It's a necessary point of comparison because ultimately it's a matter of Egypt vs some other choice. Thus the starting point would be a blank civ performing an identical strategy and the value is basically just Egypt- blank civ. Naturally Egypt is going to be superior. It has to be, otherwise there is no point. For example,a lot of times people may go "England is OP because if they have 20 cities with 5 sea resources each they'll get tons of science with Free Inquiry" but it's ultimately meaningless because that's the map that is strong-- not England-- and all England does is build the harbors faster. When we get to Egypt, sure, they do contribute more.

Whether or not you think that's worth it, is of course, up to you.
 
Egypt is nowhere close to top tier - much closer to bottom tier IMO, though this thread has improved my opinion of them. Sure they excel at this particular strategy but if you get rushed by an aggressive neighbor you are in for a tough game. I still can't see anyone picking Egypt in multiplayer. Unfavorable maps are more of an issue for them because of desert starts. The 15% bonus still seems pretty underwhelming to me and I barely noticed it. I do think they can make better use of Monumentality than some other civs and it might be interesting to try a sphinx spam/religion game combined with commercial hubs. You can probably faith buy a bunch of traders and get rich even faster. It's pretty easy to get an early golden age with them with their UU and UI both coming in the ancient age.
 
Egypt is nowhere close to top tier - much closer to bottom tier IMO, though this thread has improved my opinion of them. Sure they excel at this particular strategy but if you get rushed by an aggressive neighbor you are in for a tough game. I still can't see anyone picking Egypt in multiplayer. Unfavorable maps are more of an issue for them because of desert starts. The 15% bonus still seems pretty underwhelming to me and I barely noticed it. I do think they can make better use of Monumentality than some other civs and it might be interesting to try a sphinx spam/religion game combined with commercial hubs. You can probably faith buy a bunch of traders and get rich even faster. It's pretty easy to get an early golden age with them with their UU and UI both coming in the ancient age.

Have never played multiplayer but I imagine aggression is a bigger deal there. Would the Chariot Archer be useful in defense for stronger bombard attacks, or are humans just too smart and will just avoid that. Though the real question I want to ask is how important are knights?

Also I guess you can't really trade reliably with actual people too.
 
Egypt's 15% production bonus is quite weak. It translates to a 13% reduction in production time, and applies only when building next to a river. Compare this to any other civ with a bonus to district production. Nubia gets +20% or +40%, regardless of placement. The Aztecs can rush districts with Builders. Any civ with a unique district gets that district in half the time, which is equivalent to a 100% production bonus, again regardless of placement. Japan gets a 100% production bonus for three different district types (Encampment, Holy Site, Theatre Square).

While a strategy centred around Commercial Hubs and gold purchasing might work well for Egypt, I think it can work quite well for other civilizations as well. I find the strategies posted here quite interesting, but I still believe Egypt is a bottom tier civilization in terms of power, and would love to see it buffed, for example in the ways I suggested near the end of page 3.
 
From release, I've liked Egypt and considered them a quite versatile civ. I'd digress that this doesn't necessarily make them a powerful civ. The biggest problem with my perception of them is the power-creep that has occurred with the DLC civs (although I have to admit, the expansion civs seem slightly more tame.) Specifically, Nubia does pretty much everything that Egypt does only better:
-both civs have an early game ranged unit, but Egypt's is prohibitively expensive. It doesn't matter how strong they are (and they are quite strong) if their cost is such that you can almost never build one. Nubia, by comparison, has one that's considerably stronger than its replacement and has extra moves for only slightly more which is negated by one of their other bonuses. The MCU is like an uber strong Protoss unit that's going to be encircled by 8 significantly weaker zerglings and be eliminated quickly.
-both civs have a unique improvement. Egypt's UI is considerably more versatile meaning you have the option of having several of them per city, but they aren't very impactful, even en masse. Nubia's UI is designed so that you probably won't have more than one per city, and they won't be in every city, but the cities that do have them are going to have two significant bonuses applied- first, the district-building bonus is doubled, and second, by selectively placing your districts you can have one strong- to super- class tile.
-both civs have a bonus to building districts, but Nubia's is 20% to Egypt's 15%, it covers all district placement against Egypt's limitation of riverside districts, and in select cities the bonus, which is already better, can be doubled. Egypt's bonus also applies to wonders, but in high-level games you aren't going to be making that many of them, particularly early on giving them more turns to impact the game as a whole.
-both civs have an infrastructure bonus (Egypt's extra gold from external trade routes and incoming trade routes vs. Nubia's mines on resources) but Nubia's is usually more impactful and always more practical. For Egypt, you can't control (though you can influence) where other civs send their routes and whether or not they are to you, and sending your own routes externally comes at a cost of a higher-hammer internal route, which is better for most strategies. For Nubia, though, mined resources are always high priority tiles to work, and hers are a bit better.

Having said all that, I still like Egypt and consider them quite versatile. The one yield that I never have too much of a need for is extra food - at a certain point, it's just bringing you to your housing/amenity cap a few turns sooner, and I'd much rather have a city take an extra couple of turns to grow if some of their other yields (beakers, culture, faith, gold, and most of all hammers) were a bit higher. Keeping that in mind, the sphinx gives you an option to get yields other than extra food from flat grass and plains that other civs without a UI can't do anything other than farm. And even those who do have UI can't do anything to floodplains other than farm them, whereas Egypt has the options of increasing culture and faith with the UI or use these tiles for districts, and the district placement can help with some adjacency bpnuses that other civs wouldn't be able to get. Also, I've said it before, but while Egypt's riverside district/wonder bonus isn't big, it's the most versatile - some civs get bonuses to building wonders, some civs get bonuses to building districts, but only Egypt gets a bonus to both. Furthermore, all of the civs that get bonuses to building wonders only get them for certain eras: China's bonus only applies to ancient and classical era wonders and then it basically expires, and France's bonus doesn't kick in until medieval and expres after industrial. Egypt is the only civ whose wonder-bonus applies to all wonders (provided you place them accordingly) and is the only civ that has a bonus to both wonders and districts. As for their trade route bonus, I pretty much disregard the external TR gold bonus, perhaps you could use this from a Great Zimbabwe city and get a little bonus on top of it (basically as if the Zimbabwe city had two extra bonus resources.) I'm more interested in experimenting with the bonus two gold from incoming trade routes: Presumably (and maybe I'm wrong, I don't know the algorithms that determine where AI civs send their trade routes) the AI probably sends their TR to the destination that gives them the highest total yields. If you can place a city on the end of your empire so that multiple civs can send multiple trade routes to it, and then send both of the great merchants (which the other strategy will lend itself to a high output of great merchants) who give +2 gold for both civs sending a trade route to that city, that means, in addition to Egypt's bonus, the AI would get a bonus of 2 food and 4 gold for each trade route sent to this city, plus the extra from it's districts. This should probably make that city the highest output TR possibility for any TR that can reach it, and Egypt would get +6 gold per trade route sent to it (Egypt's bonus of +2 plus the extra 2 gpt from each of the two great merchants.) This could, theoretically but quite realistically, lead to a bonus of almost 100gpt, perhaps even considerably more late game, and it's a completely passive bonus to be added to all the gpt-producing things that you're actively doing as Egypt.
 
Well, I guess I'll post the end of my Egypt game. I thought this was a pretty good show of having to use Egypt's abilities because

Spoiler :
The land is pretty weak, almost no rivers and nobody to conquer early on a small island. So it all comes down to making good use of the few river spots. In reality, there's like 2.5 usable cities until I settled off this. Now, there were 2 CS's I could have killed but I rather had just sent trade routes to them.

As suggested before Shedet is very badly placed. It should have been to the south. but at least I got a +5 hub and a +9 theater disrict for the trouble.


And this island just is there to hold art.


Also I lost a city across the channel due to loyalty. Yea....
 
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Well, I guess I'll post the end of my Egypt game. I thought this was a pretty good show of having to use Egypt's abilities because

Haha - yeah I loaded the save you posted and explored a little and then took a restart. I wanted more rivers to work with.
 
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