Civ Suggestion: Polynesia

[JiimBV]

I think you skimmed through this thread too quickly.

Both of those concerns have already been addressed.

When I drafted the UP, I made it quite clear that the effect caps at 4 contacts.
That means only 2 Hammers for each Sea tile. It's already been mentioned.

As for conquerors, someone else already stated that Polynesia should be classified as a New World civ so they don't gain conquerors too easily.

Look again carefully.

Ahaha, now I just feel silly, I can't believe I missed both of those.

Well, good idea then. I'm all for it.

 

[archcapitalist]

I think we have our stability map right here.

right, polynesians settled parts of madagascar. but before they got to polynesia, not after. polynesia never launched an invasion of madagascar from fiji.

the problem isn't keeping them from getting conquerers. its them settling the west coast before the new world civs spawn, which a human player will probably do. you dont want a civ where the best strategy is to play completely ahistorically.

 

[Locutus_Morti]

Honestly, I hadn't thought of that at all. Do you have any ideas to mitigate this risk? Because the best idea I have is lots of barbarian Galleys floating around the Pacific, which sounds awful.

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

right, polynesians settled parts of madagascar. but before they got to polynesia, not after. polynesia never launched an invasion of madagascar from fiji.

the problem isn't keeping them from getting conquerers. its them settling the west coast before the new world civs spawn, which a human player will probably do. you dont want a civ where the best strategy is to play completely ahistorically.

And we don't already do that with Aztecs or Maya?

 

[srpt]

make the canoe UU carry only non-comat units. this will allow them to colonise only safe, non-barb areas like 1 tile islands.

 

[Locutus_Morti]

No, that makes it a really caravel. Military units are a necessity.

 

[JiimBV]

make the canoe UU carry only non-comat units. this will allow them to colonise only safe, non-barb areas like 1 tile islands.

No, that makes it a really caravel. Military units are a necessity.

No, srpt is right. It doesn't make it like a caravel because it can still carry settlers. This enables settling Hawaii, Easter Island, New Zealand and Madagascar while being unable to settle Africa, South America and Australia due to Dog Soldiers, Impi and the like. When a population 1 city is settled near barbs without any soldiers to protect it, it will fall to them instantly. Australia would need a native barbarian to keep Polynesia away. It's the best way to historically represent this civ.

 

[iOnlySignIn]

srpt's version of the UU would make this civ less overpowered in Human hands.

And I agree with JiimBV on the historical flavor.

Perhaps we should just make the UU replace Caravel altogether. Make it require Mathematics/Construction instead of Optics, etc.

 

[youtien]

The problem is they stayed tribalism until today, they never had a significant government (except some small kingdoms), they were scattered too far to have a union. At least one of their UHV should link to culture. Let their UB have unlimited artists, and/or let their UP enable converting culture to hammer or settler. Or this: no city number maintainence cost under tribalism or city states.

 

[JiimBV]

At least one of their UHV should link to culture. Let their UB have unlimited artists, and/or let their UP enable converting culture to hammer or settler. Or this: no city number maintainence cost under tribalism or city states.

Starting date: 600 AD

Starting Techs: Fishing, Sailing, The Wheel, Hunting, Mysticism

UP: Power of Island Nations: Double culture and no city maintenance cost under tribalism.

UB: Moai: Requires Masonry, double build speed with stone, replaces Lighthouse, +1 per seafood resource and/or tile, +1 priest(or artist/engineer?) slot, +2 (no bonus health or trade)

UU: Canoe: as OP suggests

UHV:
1. Control New Zealand, Hawaii and Easter Island by 1200 AD. Very good, historical goal Locutus, perfect date too.

2. Build 10 Moai by 1400 AD. Would require colonization of most of stability map, or more.

3. 50000 culture in/by 1850 AD. Would require player to resist any European or Asian incursions and remain in tribalism to maintain culture levels and allow for isolated, peaceful building.

If you give Easter Island a stone resource, these changes give Polynesia more realistic production and goals, and better represents their decentralized society and actual achievements, and because of the nature of the UHV and UB, the player will be encouraged to settle near seafood and fight Europeans anyways. More is incorporated!

Perhaps we should just make the UU replace Caravel altogether. Make it require Mathematics/Construction instead of Optics, etc.

No, it should replace Galleys. We don't want Polynesia to have Galleys, Triremes or Caravels unless it does ahistorically well, so if Canoes replace Galleys, all they should have is Canoes. Why would we want Polynesia to be able to conquer anyone? Without the use of a military for most of its existence, Polynesia becomes a very unique civ.

EDIT: If Polynesia is too strong even with these changes, the Moai could replace Harbors instead, and thus get rid of the +1 food and seriously nerf them.

 

[merijn_v1]

Just some brainstorming:

UP
- 1 on the city tile for every 2 water tiles in the BFC.
The more water tiles a city has, the bigger the bonus. So building cities near water is encouraged. Cities with land tiles get less production bonus, but they can get the production from the (improved) land tiles.
If a city has only water tiles in it's BFC, the bonus will be 10 . I think that's a good number. For cities without the first cultural expansion, the max bonus is 4 .

UB
Moai Statues - Replaces lighthouse
These are suggestions it could have, alongside some other bonus'.
- 1 from every sea resource.
Due lack of happiness resources in the area, I think they will have a hard time getting enough happiness. Health isn't a problem with the sea resources. So even without many resources, the can have a decent population.
- Just raw .
This can compensate the lack of hammers. If this is still needed with an UP.

 

[JiimBV]

UP
- 1 on the city tile for every 2 water tiles in the BFC.
The more water tiles a city has, the bigger the bonus. So building cities near water is encouraged. Cities with land tiles get less production bonus, but they can get the production from the (improved) land tiles.
If a city has only water tiles in it's BFC, the bonus will be 10 . I think that's a good number. For cities without the first cultural expansion, the max bonus is 4 .

I think this would be a PERFECT bonus for the UB. Not overpowered, but certainly fun and most powerful in Easter Island, so historical too. I just prefer my UP because it helps with their biggest real obstacle, the vast ocean between groups. They kept to small, separate island nations, which wouldn't be represented otherwise.

UB
Moai Statues - Replaces lighthouse
-1 from every sea resource.
-Just raw .

We don't want their population to be very high in the early game anyways. They should be restricted by happiness, they were very small compared to Europe and Asia. Up to 10 hammers per island is plenty.

 

[iOnlySignIn]

Why would we want Polynesia to be able to conquer anyone? Without the use of a military for most of its existence, Polynesia becomes a very unique civ.

Well that would certainly be fun to play for me.

But the Maori are some of the most warlike people in history. Which makes your idea of representing them highly unrealistic.

 

[Pavel Chichikov]

My personal opinion is that is the "untaken map space" argument is irrelevant, although I'm clearly in the minority here.
The only independent Polynesian entity I can think of that hasn't been completely swamped with Europeans is Tonga, which isn't exactly a world power. Most Polynesians weren't even aware of each others existence. I think work would be better gone into better game mechanics for representing independent and minor Civ's than adding more Civ's to a game that is already maxed to the limit in terms of non-super-computers.

Having agressive natives spawn in New Zealand on settler arrival is more realistic imo.

 

[civ_king]

My personal opinion is that is the "untaken map space" argument is irrelevant, although I'm clearly in the minority here.
The only independent Polynesian entity I can think of that hasn't been completely swamped with Europeans is Tonga, which isn't exactly a world power. Most Polynesians weren't even aware of each others existence. I think work would be better gone into better game mechanics for representing independent and minor Civ's than adding more Civ's to a game that is already maxed to the limit in terms of non-super-computers.

Having agressive natives spawn in New Zealand on settler arrival is more realistic imo.

DoC plays about as fast on my current computer as the computer I played BtS on played that. New computers have improved substantially.

 

[BenZL43]

Just to clarify, it's not Polynesians that colonize the Madagascar, but the Srivijayan (Indonesia). It's clearly pointed in the map

More source: Madagascar

 

[youtien]

Another possible UP: gains research points toward naval techs every turn or by events. In real history, Polynesians taught Europeans some useful knowledge on astronomy and navigation.

 

[Lennon789]

Just to clarify, it's not Polynesians that colonize the Madagascar, but the Srivijayan (Indonesia). It's clearly pointed in the map

More source: Madagascar

The people we know as Polynesians were a different ethnic group and culture than the Indonesians. These Polynesians settled Madagascar from Indonesia, and were later driven out of the archipelago (of Indonesia) by the Srivijayans. So maybe we can have the Polynesians spawn in Indonesia a few centuries before the Srivijayans. This way, the player would need to make sure to expand out of Indonesia before the Srivijaya spawn.

 

[Sarius1997]

The people we know as Polynesians were a different ethnic group and culture than the Indonesians. These Polynesians settled Madagascar from Indonesia, and were later driven out of the archipelago (of Indonesia) by the Srivijayans. So maybe we can have the Polynesians spawn in Indonesia a few centuries before the Srivijayans. This way, the player would need to make sure to expand out of Indonesia before the Srivijaya spawn.

This idea is great; i would expand it a bit, and make it like this: They should spawn on the phillipines on 2000 BC, if we want it perfect historical, or if we want it better from a gameplay perspective; they´d spawn around 500 BC in Indonesia, and the Indonesian civ would gain conquerors on them, when they spawn.

 

[DrSeward]

I just want to add this precious item to the list:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuʻi_Tonga_Empire

Maybe the player can accomplish, what the historical Tongans possibly never accomplished by themselves: Build a real Empire, controlling large chunks of the Pacific. Furthermore this would serve as a historical base on which the new Civ could be modeled.