Civ Suggestion: Polynesia

[Leoreth]

Oh, I haven't answered so far because I didn't want to interfere with your discussion. You're probably not surprised to hear that I've actually considered to add Polynesia a long time ago already, but so far have decided against it. I do think that they could make for a unique and interesting game experience.

In my opinion they should be about their early expansion, so I think a start 1500-1000 BC somewhere in Polynesia (Tonga perhaps?) would be appropriate. I also agree that giving them the ability to cross the ocean early makes sense. On the other hand, if we make their UU the Waka and allow it to enter ocean tiles, it would lead to inappropriate side effects like early circumnavigation. Instead I'd give them a UP that allows all of their ships to enter all ocean tiles adjacent to one they could normally enter (coast or culture controlled ocean). This would also stipulate more historical island hopping similar to the Viking Greenland trick, where you would need to settle and expand your borders to expand further (Hawaii would be reachable this way, for example). The Waka then simply would be a galley with lower costs and maybe additional movement, to accomodate their low production. This imo makes more sense than giving the Polynesians an ability to get high production somehow. Their uniqueness and challenge should come from getting by with low production.

I'd also bring back the Moai statues as a wonder, and will think of a way to restrict it so they cannot be easily built by more productive civs. Rapa Nui / Easter Island will get a stone resource to help them build it.

Their UB should instead be the Marae/Malae, which could work as an ealry and cheaper courthouse, to balance their widespread expansion.

I like the idea to tie Polynesia to Tribalism, but for a long time it's the only viable civic in that column for them anyway (no plantations for Agrarianism), so it works out already.

The UHV would be something like that:
- settle Madagascar, Hawaii, Aotearoa and Rapa Nui by 500 AD (or whatever is appropriate)
- build the Moai Statues by 1250 AD
- settle X land masses by Y AD (depending on the desired challenge)

 

[civ_king]

Oh, I haven't answered so far because I didn't want to interfere with your discussion. You're probably not surprised to hear that I've actually considered to add Polynesia a long time ago already, but so far have decided against it. I do think that they could make for a unique and interesting game experience.

In my opinion they should be about their early expansion, so I think a start 1500-1000 BC somewhere in Polynesia (Tonga perhaps?) would be appropriate. I also agree that giving them the ability to cross the ocean early makes sense. On the other hand, if we make their UU the Waka and allow it to enter ocean tiles, it would lead to inappropriate side effects like early circumnavigation. Instead I'd give them a UP that allows all of their ships to enter all ocean tiles adjacent to one they could normally enter (coast or culture controlled ocean). This would also stipulate more historical island hopping similar to the Viking Greenland trick, where you would need to settle and expand your borders to expand further (Hawaii would be reachable this way, for example). The Waka then simply would be a galley with lower costs and maybe additional movement, to accomodate their low production. This imo makes more sense than giving the Polynesians an ability to get high production somehow. Their uniqueness and challenge should come from getting by with low production.

I'd also bring back the Moai statues as a wonder, and will think of a way to restrict it so they cannot be easily built by more productive civs. Rapa Nui / Easter Island will get a stone resource to help them build it.

Their UB should instead be the Marae/Malae, which could work as an ealry and cheaper courthouse, to balance their widespread expansion.

I like the idea to tie Polynesia to Tribalism, but for a long time it's the only viable civic in that column for them anyway (no plantations for Agrarianism), so it works out already.

The UHV would be something like that:
- settle Madagascar, Hawaii, Aotearoa and Rapa Nui by 500 AD (or whatever is appropriate)
- build the Moai Statues by 1250 AD
- settle X land masses by Y AD (depending on the desired challenge)

Have at least 11 water tiles in BFC

 

[Leoreth]

Yeah, or "be situated on a one tile island" Although I can already picture Kition with this then

 

[iOnlySignIn]

Have at least 11 water tiles in BFC

Make it 20.

Tokyo has at least 11 water tiles in its BFC.

Additionally, make the wonder require Animism. There, Phoenicia will no longer be so eager to build it.

 

[iOnlySignIn]

Instead I'd give them a UP that allows all of their ships to enter all ocean tiles adjacent to one they could normally enter (coast or culture controlled ocean). This would also stipulate more historical island hopping similar to the Viking Greenland trick, where you would need to settle and expand your borders to expand further (Hawaii would be reachable this way, for example).

This is so much more fun. And realistic.

This imo makes more sense than giving the Polynesians an ability to get high production somehow. Their uniqueness and challenge should come from getting by with low production.

Indeed.

I shudder to think how those UP/UB which boost and to water tiles may be abused.

The UHV would be something like that:
- settle Madagascar, Hawaii, Aotearoa and Rapa Nui by 500 AD (or whatever is appropriate)
- build the Moai Statues by 1250 AD
- settle X land masses by Y AD (depending on the desired challenge)

Please make X astonishingly large.

 

[strijder20]

to water tiles may be abused.

*Cough cough* city states *Cough cough*

 

[iOnlySignIn]

*Cough cough* city states *Cough cough*

Which is why I never use City States.

Don't need OP civic to spoil the fun.

 

[BenZL43]

The people we know as Polynesians were a different ethnic group and culture than the Indonesians.

Sure, the Indonesian is Austronesian and I think the picture shows that there are many kind of Pacific people, like the Austronesian (where the arrow then refer to Madagascar), Melanesian, Polynesian etc.
It's like where Caucasian people then divided to Germanic, Spanish, Aryan etc.

Ergo I think it is clear that the one that colonize Madagascar is Austronesian. The reason why I did not suggest this as Indonesia's UHV back then because there are no city name. It'd be awkward if Sriwijaya founded Antananarivo or such there.

Quoted too from Wikipedia:
"Most archaeologists estimate that the earliest settlers arrived in outrigger canoes from southern Borneo in successive waves throughout the period between 350 BCE and 550 CE, making Madagascar one of the last major landmasses on Earth to be settled by humans."

These Polynesians settled Madagascar from Indonesia, and were later driven out of the archipelago (of Indonesia) by the Srivijayans. So maybe we can have the Polynesians spawn in Indonesia a few centuries before the Srivijayans. This way, the player would need to make sure to expand out of Indonesia before the Srivijaya spawn.

Source?

 

[Hightower]

Perhaps we can enable the Trading Company event for the Polynesians, allowing them to settle Madagascar.

If someone settles Madagascar before the Europeans, it should be Indonesia, not Polynesia, as discussed above. Indonesia represents a wide variety of Indonesian cultures, including Srivijaya and Majapahit but also the many societies that existed before Srivijaya and the many that persisted after the collapse of Majapahit. The pre-Srivijayan Indonesians were certainly more closely related to the Srivijayans than they were to the Hawaiians or the Maori or the smaller Polynesian cultures.

As far as the third UHV, I think "settle 12 cities" or something would work better than "settle 12 landmasses". They should be allowed to settle multiple cities in New Zealand, New Guinea, etc. for the UHV as well.

 

[Mr_Hobo]

How about "Control x% of Pacific water tiles"? Thus encourages heavy culture and island expansion. Plus the AI could get Hawaii and Guam settlers. Then we could add TC conquerors to target these islands for the US and Spain respectively.

On a related note, now that we have Cities-as-Improvements, could you add resources to many of the one tile islands? It would be great to see every island in the Caribbean and Pacfic settled at once and still have useful cities.

 

[strijder20]

Don't need OP civic to spoil the fun.

Then you shall not receive the blessing of the size 70 city
(City States makes stability an extremely volatile thing to deal with, though - one city too much and you're collapsing)

 

[whobob3296]

With regard to low production, you could possibly include a terrain feature like attoll or reef that grants additional production. That way Polynesia would have extra production but it wouldn't be abuseable.

 

[Oregon Lee]

What do you people think about having the Polynesians settle Indonesia first, then have it revolt to the Indonesians? (Don't have any historical backing of this, just throwing out seeds)

 

[Lennon789]

The historical backing for this suggestion can be found in Guns, Germs, and Steel by Jared Diamond. Just read the chapter where he details the settling of the Pacific.

 

[iOnlySignIn]

What do you people think about having the Polynesians settle Indonesia first, then have it revolt to the Indonesians? (Don't have any historical backing of this, just throwing out seeds)

Or we could take the middle ground. Let Polynesians spawn in New Guinea.

This way the Indonesians will be a close and competitive neighbor, but you don't have to suffer flips if you don't want to.

 

[JiimBV]

Or we could take the middle ground. Let Polynesians spawn in New Guinea.

This way the Indonesians will be a close and competitive neighbor, but you don't have to suffer flips if you don't want to.

This might be a good idea, we don't want them to collapse until they're conquered by the Europeans/Americans, do we? Or even if they're just vassalized, that would be better than collapse. If they don't have to have their capital or even cities flipped, they're better off.

 

[blizzrd]

Polynesian peoples would be adequately represented if some independent cities spawned at the appropriate dates. Then they would be conquered/vassalised by the various colonial powers as they were discovered. After all, that's what happened.

On a side note, I'd like to see America be more encouraged to settle Hawaii.

 

[merijn_v1]

How about "Control x% of Pacific water tiles"? Thus encourages heavy culture and island expansion.

I don't think that's a good idea. The cultural borders on water stop after expansion 2. So you can only control 20 (possiby 34) water tiles with one city.

And because the Pacific is quite big, the % you can control is very low. "Control 5% of the Pacific water tiles might too much already." IMO, a number that low looks just weird.

 

[Mr_Hobo]

That could even be part of their UP then; culture spreads normally over ocean, showing how their culture did spread despite geographic obstacles.

 

[Jusos2108]

I really don't see the benefits of adding the Polynesians, for similar reasons the Inuits could added around Greenland. For gameplay, they are useless. Who would want crappy one tile island cities (maybe except the Netherlands), I don't even wish them for the AI. They would handicap the AI even further, haven't we seen enough of those cities, where the AI builds one defender infantry unit for centuries with one hammer?