Frank Drebin
Police Squad!
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seconded.
Civ V retail WON'T be in a box
- Thread starter Tylerryan79
- Start date
Sad. I hope you see what development you're enforcing here.
I can be lucky? Who of us both supports this online stuff?
If more people resist to buy such a game, with forced *whatever*, they would not even think about OnLive or similar services.
But Steam is going on well, so no need to stop at this point, let's take all rights of the gamers away.
Go on. Support it. I will not.
And this is a good reason to support bad development?
xmen510
Emperor
Hmmm... To be honest, there are no "Gamers Rights".
That is just an illusion people create to feel more important about themselves. We are choosing to buy the ability to usesomeone elses product. It is not ours, we have no claim on it. Just like buying fruit drinks with no real fruit in it. If you don't want it, you don't buy it. However, you don't have any right to have the developer of said drink make it in a way you want it.
Gamer Rights is a laughable concept. The only right we have is the right to choose to buy a game or not. We don't have any right as to what we want in it or how it is made. It is not our product, it is their product.
That is just an illusion people create to feel more important about themselves. We are choosing to buy the ability to usesomeone elses product. It is not ours, we have no claim on it. Just like buying fruit drinks with no real fruit in it. If you don't want it, you don't buy it. However, you don't have any right to have the developer of said drink make it in a way you want it.
Gamer Rights is a laughable concept. The only right we have is the right to choose to buy a game or not. We don't have any right as to what we want in it or how it is made. It is not our product, it is their product.
That the game you buy is not anymore in the same "my game" as the chair i sit on is "my chair" is sure also the fault of the same people advertising the digital distribution here.
You can't say "you don't have any rights", because it's also your fault that these "rights" don't exist anymore.
You can't say "you don't have any rights", because it's also your fault that these "rights" don't exist anymore.
xmen510
Emperor
Except that those rights never existed in the first place. They were just made up. We never had any rights to what was released or how. We don't have a "right" to a manual, we don't have a "right" to no DRM. What we have is what the developer chooses to put out. We have the "right" to choose to buy that product or not, but we don't have the "right" to force them to make it in any other way then they want.
But we have the ability to influence it, with our wallet.
The "old days" have been fine.
Today isn't.
You can show them what you think about throug not buying the games, that's what you've said, right.
The problem are the people who say "Bad development is what is done today, accept it, i do, i'll buy it, no matter what crap they'll produce!".
Thanks to these people.
The "old days" have been fine.
Today isn't.
You can show them what you think about throug not buying the games, that's what you've said, right.
The problem are the people who say "Bad development is what is done today, accept it, i do, i'll buy it, no matter what crap they'll produce!".
Thanks to these people.
Frank Drebin
Police Squad!
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it's a luxury product. you dont like it, you dont buy it. just as you wouldnt buy a chair you dont like.
AlpsStranger
Jump jump on the tiger!
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I have to agree. This has gone beyond ridiculous. This is not a serious political cause. It is a minor trend within a small subgroup of a single category of luxury product.
What's next, anti-DRM suicide bombers?
@The_J: I'm not going to be made to feel guilty because there is nothing to feel guilty about. I am allowed, both by law and morality, to decide that I wish to buy a DRM-laden nonphysical version of a game. There is literally nothing wrong with choosing to do so. I don't *want* to go to the store and buy a game with a such a bad UI that it *needs* a 200 page manual. The internet is a far better source of information for any game that is patched often enough to be worth playing.
As for the john/bus/waiting room I think actual books will do just fine for reading material.
Just try "voting with your wallet" as a PC Gamer in 2010+. I don't think you'll like the corporate response to that one. Here's a hint: http://www.nintendo.com/wii
Your opinion of what is bad development is not shared by the majority.
You're resistant to change. You want to keep doing things the same way forever. You've grown accustomed to it. Just because it's different doesn't mean it's bad.
Just look at how much of a cesspool these forums are lately. People who are so resistant to doing things differently make up imaginary excuses not to change. How many people still think formatting a hard drive means you have to buy a new game? Personally, I actually like games like World of Warcraft that I can just backup by copying to a different drive because it doesn't need to do ******** things to the registry just so I can play.
timtofly
One Day
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As a multiplayer online game it would have "its" benefits. This game has also been enjoyed by millions as a single player game offline. Going from this to online is a bigger leap than messing with the registry.
Not enough people resisted that when it first happened either.
deanej
Deity
Consumers are too complacent. Most don't understand how the corporations are eroding rights. And to think I remember the time when we had the saying "the customer is always right". Now we have a different saying: "the customer is always a criminal".
Completly right.
You're both right, it seems
.
But it also doesn't have to mean that it's good.
Everyone values advantages and disadvantages in a different way, and the result in conncection to steam is for me bad.
But well, that's my opinion.
Everyone is free to have an own opinion.
You're both right, it seems
. But it also doesn't have to mean that it's good.
Everyone values advantages and disadvantages in a different way, and the result in conncection to steam is for me bad.
But well, that's my opinion.
Everyone is free to have an own opinion.
Sciguy001
CiV Great Scientist (duh)
Why do you people get so involved in an issue such as minor such as a game manual??? Gosh a lot of people have no lives.
Well, if digital downloads solve everything then perhaps we should apply it to everything and just enjoy high quality digital pictures of the great artwork out there instead of keeping it. We can just put all the originals in an incinerator. After that we can make some really nice guided tours of historical buildings across the globe them demonlish them for more modern development. Then we can snap up more photos and video of the great wonders, and tear those down too. Sounds silly doesn't it?
It's a bit disrespectful to imply that people who enjoy manuals and would like to see them make a comeback have no lives. I haven't seen any extreme talk in this thread to warrant a post like that, so far it's just been a mix of people appreciating how manuals used to be, and those who get just as much value out of games without them. Can't we all just get along?
My opinion is that there is definitely a market out there of people who appreciate things like detailed manuals. It's one way for publishers and developers to give back, however because of the rising costs of development everything involved in packaging a game has been scaled back. Even the game boxes themselves used to be significantly more massive. Those days are obviously over though, I think everyone understands that.
One proven way for publishers to provide the manual loving market with a way to get their fix however is by printing off Collector's Editions which come with a premium price tag attached. The premium tends to cover the added costs and then some in most cases, and satisfies the consumers out there who want the added extras.
AlpsStranger
Jump jump on the tiger!
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This would be a good solution. It may *still* require steam once you actually install it, but there would be nothing wrong with this. As long as what they charge offsets the costs(including shelf space opportunity costs and such) of the manual there isn't a big problem. I don't think they'll do it, but it would be nice for those interested if they did.
Disgustipated
Deity
of course I have no life, why else would I be playing civ4 and soon to be civ5? (actually lately I have had a life, and have had no time to play civ4
) Civ games are just something to do when you can't do things with other people. I can't see why anyone would choose this game over real interaction with people.I think the reality is that manuals used to be required due to technical limitations that no longer exist.
Back in the day you have computers that ran games at 320x200 VGA resolution. In game text was a pain to read, so a printed manual was a proxy for the online help we now have.
Also the internet has meant the online resources for games are so much more extensive than what the manuals ever were. Yeah, you can say it's companies outsourcing their responsibilities to unpaid volunteers, but from my perspective, I just care about the results, and the end result is that the volunteers are doing a better job.
This reminds me a bit of the lamentation of older music lovers that the smaller size of the CD has meant that album artwork isn't as good as it was on LPs. Probably true, but ultimately most of the market cares about the music and not the packaging. Likewise I think most gamers care about the game, and so manuals are just a needless expense that companies have ditched.
Back in the day you have computers that ran games at 320x200 VGA resolution. In game text was a pain to read, so a printed manual was a proxy for the online help we now have.
Also the internet has meant the online resources for games are so much more extensive than what the manuals ever were. Yeah, you can say it's companies outsourcing their responsibilities to unpaid volunteers, but from my perspective, I just care about the results, and the end result is that the volunteers are doing a better job.
This reminds me a bit of the lamentation of older music lovers that the smaller size of the CD has meant that album artwork isn't as good as it was on LPs. Probably true, but ultimately most of the market cares about the music and not the packaging. Likewise I think most gamers care about the game, and so manuals are just a needless expense that companies have ditched.
deanej
Deity
PDFs are a pain to read. Try reading 200 pages of PDF in a short period of time and see how much you like it.
Manuals aren't even designed to be read like novels, they're reference material that you use to look something up when you need it. A job that context sensitive online help actually makes easier.
I imagine the people who enjoy reading manuals from cover to cover are a very small segment of the market. For those people you can always print it out. Yes that costs money for your ink & paper, but it doesn't really make sense that the majority who couldn't care less about a printed manual should subsidise the few that do.
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