Civ5 - shipping with Steamworks * plus Digital Deluxe Edition

[DRJ]

Way to show the neutrallity of Valve in this equation.

Let us look down the road.
Profitable businesses eventually get sold for profit.
The new owners milk their newly purchased cash cow.
They become fascist (control freaks)
... financial rapists (milk that cow ... alot).
Having become so bloated with their ill-gotten booty,
... they vassal the rest of the world
... and win a domination victory!

(checking the paranoia meter)
Yes! I think that will do it.

My point:
Some of you are too young to appreciate this is not paranoia.
You are teaching companies how to treat you.
You are building the future.
Don't blind yourself to the lessons of history.
If you continue to give up your rights and power to greedy corporations,
you doom us and future generations.

NO to DRM.
NO to DLC.
NO to 3rd party business transactions.
NO to forced choice (ie no choice).
NO to carrot on a stick.

Good points. After contemplating the pro and cons, your analysis absolutely covers my feelings about the situation. For now, boycott it is.
I don't want the carrot stick DLC. And Gamespy/Steam or whatever was always suspicious to me. I just don't want that.

At least I will play Civ 4 some time longer as it has great mods like RoM: AND with all options civ5 will have already implemented (and adjustable!) + espionage + religion. I never cared much for great graphics or hexes, in my opinion basic civ is getting flatter and flatter in terms of content with each new version, so without the very complex mods I am just not challenged anymore. And waiting for the first real mods to evolve will take half a year at least... we'll see. At least I won't buy a new comp for this like I originally planned to. I will be very careful. If its just a better Civ-Revolutions clone for dumb console kiddies you can count me out completely!

If there is a demo, maybe I will try it if it doesn't involve Steam.

 

[Eejit]

I sincerely hope 2K and Firaxis keep a sense of scale in mind when they read the shrill complaints on these and other forums. The vocal minority is very small, nothing to get spooked over.

 

[DRJ]

I sincerely hope 2K and Firaxis keep a sense of scale in mind when they read the shrill complaints on these and other forums. The vocal minority is very small, nothing to get spooked over.

Maybe we are a minority. But then again, maybe we are the crucial group you do not want to lose to make the game a economical success. We are the ones that played every game since civ1. Its our efforts and mouth to mouth propaganda that helped to get it so big. Neglecting the old-school guys, who, even though being able to get the game for free went to the store to buy a box just to support the game... well I guess it's a new age and we're out.-

 

[Periander]

I'm all for Steam, but that's just not true. There is no guarantee that the Steam version will last forever. Though unlikely, Valve could go out of business or shut down Steam or sell Steam off or, well, anything can happen really.

Well, yes, that is technically true, although I think you could comfortably assume that they will be around a while longer, and in the unlikely scenario, there are options to ensure the continuing operation of games.

I've tried steam for three days now through their "Free Portal" deal. I am now solidly in the camp of "want a Steam-less Civ V version". It wouldn't even be so bad if I installed Steam, installed the game, and then uninstalled Steam and be able to continue playing Civ V. Afterall, one of the reasons for Steam is the DRM right? I see no problem with needing Steam to install, but I do see a problem with needing Steam to play it. And no, offline version does not count. I want to remove Steam in its entirely after installing Civ V and, I am repeating myself, continue playing the game unhindered.

*Note: I know it's not possible with Portal as it is a Valve game, but Civ V isn't.

It's all well and good to say you've tried it for three days and don't like it, but care to enlighten us as to why? Took too long to install? Didn't like Portal? Locked up?

As for your note, because they are using Steamworks, i.e., Valve modules that allow them to use existing superior multiplayer and DRM functionality on PC, it is partially a Valve game. That's their decision to do that, to:

· Speed develoment on PC so that they can spend more time making the game.
· Have a simple primary distribution method, (although there will be a box afaik), to save on costs, so that they can spend more on development, (again, to make the game better for you).
· To ensure that piracy is reduced, (and yes, this is a fact of life in PC game distribution in this day and age, even if it is a losing battle and imperfect). Would you rather a painfree online check or a disk check where there is a percentage of duds?
· Make sure that multiplayer isn't a heap of crap like it was last time, (and really, multiplayer is where it's at imo, AI only goes so far or cheats).

Maybe we are a minority. But the again, maybe we are the crucial group you do not want to lose to make the game a economical success. We are the ones that played every game since civ1. Its our efforts and mouth to mouth propaganda that helped to get it so big. Neglecting the old-school guys, who, even though being able to get the game for free went to the store to buy a box just to support the game... well I guess it's a new age and we're out.-

Again, you *CAN* buy it as a box in store.

You should stop assuming that you represent 'old-school' players. Civ fanatics are typically not so irrational or paranoid as to think that a content delivery system is going to be the end of the world.

 

[Nick Danger]

ok, maybe I did not get across what I meant

DLC to me is just a different distribution model for additional content. Previously we had expansion packs because small contents like one civ was not feasible to distribute. All prior expansion packs could have been made available as DLC from my perspective, DLC allows for smaller packs too, but it does not require them to be small.

It's semantics

To me DLC is based upon the microtransaction model -- selling bits that are too small to be a game (civ4) or expansion (BtS). Things like Oblivion's infamous horse armor, or a map or 3 in some fps games, or a single civ leader (babylonian), or the like. DLC being a way to squeeze more money from the gamer turnip in ways additional to the normal 'sell game/expansion' route.

I'm not saying your definition is wrong and mine right, I'm just clarifying so we can avoid being sidetracked from the salient points we see differently on.

[As an aside, it's interesting how many 'arguments' (argument as in 'everythings an argument' not as in a 'heated discussion') are semantic-based and the participants pretty much agree and don't realize it. ]

Practically I do expect the official civ [DLC] to be of higher quality (I gave examples of the differences in quality in the previous post).

I agree some will, but think some will be of equal quality, but the point is kinda moot -- as long as folks are free to use mods they will use what mods they deem good enough. Having our current free choice on what mods to use is a good thing.

2K will be interjecting themselves into the process to officially approve mods, at least mods released via steam. Apparently we'll still be able to get 'officially unapproved' mods from CivFanatics/etc. which is a good thing, but one worries if officially unapproved mods will break the game for MP/etc.

 

[MajKira]

benefits of the Steamworks' features?????
LOL for what steam?
and no Siddys Pirates!! III is comin yet, Pirates 2 was really good but lost some features of first Pirates
and Sids Colo Remake was catastrophobic
Steam is rather bad and boxed version much better
but I wanna play Civ 5

 

[Nick Danger]

2. What personally identifiable information does Valve collect with Steam? The only information players are required to provide is a valid email address and a password, and to verify they are older than 13 years of age. All other information is optional, and a player’s profile can be set to private. Valve does track the time spent playing a game, per account, but does not collect information about what other processes are running concurrently on the computer.

Valve's Privacy Policy

They collect:
1-"Aggregate information" is information that describes the habits, usage patterns, and demographics of users as a group but does not describe or reveal the identity of any particular user.

2-"Individual information" is information about a user that is presented in a form distinguishable from information relating to other users but not in a form that personally identifies any user or enables the recipient to communicate directly with any user unless agreed to by the user in advance of such communication. This information may be used to improve Valve's products and online sites, for internal marketing studies, or simply to collect demographic information about Valve's users.

3-"Personally identifiable information" consists of a user's name, email address, physical address, or other data about the user that enables the recipient to personally identify the user."

Read the policy if interested.

Interesting quotes:
"Furthermore, external websites and companies with links to and from Valve's online sites and products may collect personal information about users. Valve's privacy policy does not extend to these external websites and companies. Please refer directly to these companies and websites regarding their privacy policies."

and

"Valve's privacy policy does not extend to associates of Valve."

So even if Steam's policy is acceptable, their links with external sites expose one to personal information collection not covered by Valve's policy.

Don't people give steam CC and attendant information when purchasing from them? That's personal information. If that info isn't purged after the transaction then add it to 2K Elizabeth's list of collected "Personally identifiable information". Is that CC/etc. information combined with the Aggregate and Individual information?

Steam also asks for "Personally identifiable information" beyond what they 'require'.

And one shouldn't gloss over the Aggregate and Individual information to focus just on the Personally Identifiable information. Aggregate and Individual information can be considerable. IP address alone tells much, demographic-wise.

What use is made of all this information? Their policy has vague statements such as:

"Personally identifiable information protected under this privacy policy and collected from users may be done in conjunction with associates under agreement with Valve. If an associate of Valve is collecting such personally identifiable information within one of our products or online sites, Valve will make users aware of this at the time the information is gathered."

Information collection isn't some little thing. Look at Google and how much $ it makes for them, and at Facebook and its current brouhaha regarding protecting user privacy. Information collecting isn't the future -- it's here now. Has Valve/Steam jumped on this bandwagon, is steam being required for Civ5 a part of that, and is that why steam isn't optional even for a store-bought dvd-installed single-player offline civ5 game? My guess is that it's not that they can't give us a choice, it's that they don't want to. Making money off our information is real, and apparently now a part of Civ5.

 

[Nick Danger]

<snip>

You asked a question in your previous post, I answered and asked of you a question in return. You either missed it or chose to ignore it. It was an important question so I'm repeating it for a second (and final time):

I support your right to choose steam. You apparently don't support my right to choose to not have an unnecessary third-party program running in the background to play a store-bought and dvd-installed single-player offline civ5 game.

Why is that? Why does it burn your britches so much that some want the option to not run steam while playing a SP offline civ5 game?

 

[mjs0]

Maybe we are a minority. But the again, maybe we are the crucial group you do not want to lose to make the game a economical success. We are the ones that played every game since civ1. Its our efforts and mouth to mouth propaganda that helped to get it so big. Neglecting the old-school guys, who, even though being able to get the game for free went to the store to buy a box just to support the game... well I guess it's a new age and we're out.-

See this is what gets me in trouble...I promised myself I would stay out of this but you had to go and try to speak for me didn't you.

I'm not picking on your post (which is very reasonable in acknowledging the possibility of being in the minority overall) I just want to comment on one aspect of it which has been present a lot in these discussion because it does seem to imply that the majority (if not most) of the 'old-school guys' are with the anti-Steam sentiment.

I too have been playing since Civ1 was released. (on my Amiga500), and I wasn't young then. I have bought every single game in this series often in multiples for the family, 4 copies of Civ4 for example, even though I am very familiar with all the ways to avoid that outlay.

Your views do not represent mine.

There is no evidence that a majority of any player demographic is either OK with or vehemently opposed to the inclusion of steam, we simply can't tell. It is true to say that there has been a lot of 'spirited', and sometimes unpleasant (on both sides) discussion but even the polls that have been held have extremely low voter turnout.

Personally, I am excited to try something new, for me change is invigorating and my 'risk assessment' is radically different than yours. I agree there is some room for Firaxis to mess up modding with DLC as a new variable but I'm inclined to trust them until proven otherwise. I am also happy to have the option of paying a small amount more to get content that would normally have waited for expansions before release.

We are all influenced by our personal experiences and I have spent some time in software development management (up to VP level), this doesn't mean my opinion is worth any more than yours but it does mean my opinion can be different for good reasons, and I can use those experiences to speculate with the best of them. Take, Babylon for example, in all likelihood previous versions of Civ have had more civs that could have been released with or just after vanilla but because there was no suitable channel for distribution we had to wait for the EP. It would not surprise me at all if Babylon is a project that will finish well after code/asset freeze for the vanilla release; developed on a separate schedule that would not have seen it available for inclusion in vanilla anyway.

Would I prefer Babylon were free or at least available for all to purchase rather than being Steam exclusive as part of a bundle, sure I would...but that's business...I'd like to pay for just the two or three cable channels I'm interested in rather than a bundle too, but it's not going to happen. (Incidentally...because of this we don't have cable, so I can appreciate your stance, but I don't expect (or claim by association) that most people in my demographic will make the same decision. The business model will change when a better one comes along, not before.)

I'm just laying out my opinions, not trying to change your personal opinion, I will defend your right to that wholeheartedly, but I am concerned that many (on both sides) are projecting their personal opinions onto entire groups with which they feel affinity and in so doing are misrepresenting the size of their 'following'.

Peace.

 

[The_J]

So I guess anyone who defends Steam is a filthy shill trying to trick you guys?

Yes.

Alright I'm gonna be nice about this, but I want to ask, of the people who dislike Steam over this, how many of you guys have tried it?

I'll explode. I'm sure.
I do not want to try anything out to play my game besides this game. That's it.

 

[Shotgunbadger]

You asked a question in your previous post, I answered and asked of you a question in return. You either missed it or chose to ignore it. It was an important question so I'm repeating it for a second (and final time):

I support your right to choose steam. You apparently don't support my right to choose to not have an unnecessary third-party program running in the background to play a store-bought and dvd-installed single-player offline civ5 game.

Why is that? Why does it burn your britches so much that some want the option to not run steam while playing a SP offline civ5 game?

It doesn't really, it annoys me that people think that Steam is some horrible monster lurking in their computer, it annoys me that people think that Valve is out to get them, and it annoys me that people think downloading a harmless 3rd party is somehow so horrible and life ruining that it will keep them from playing a game they want.

Also it annoys me that people don't get that DLCs are nothing more then cheaper, mini, expansions that allow you to pick and chose what you want to buy.

Is that enough reasons to be annoyed at a shrill minority that claims to speak to everyone?

 

[DRJ]

You asked a question in your previous post, I answered and asked of you a question in return. You either missed it or chose to ignore it. It was an important question so I'm repeating it for a second (and final time):

I support your right to choose steam. You apparently don't support my right to choose to not have an unnecessary third-party program running in the background to play a store-bought and dvd-installed single-player offline civ5 game.

As you won't ask again, I do it for you as I read no real answer to that, only sleazy excuses and deflection, so I ask again:

Why can't the box version have a code in it thats unique, so no Steam installation/ authentification is needed? If every code in every box is unique and produced by nearly chance-like algorithms, wouldn't that be a reason to just let the Steam issue fall away?!!

I remember Civ1 having in-game "DRM" questions that had to be solved by the handbook, page 53.... lol now that was fun.

Regarding the DLC I feel like Valve wants us to get hooked up for fast food junky shots instead of nourishing on healthy meals (expansions) from time to time.

I still dream of a Civ that we can buy in a box version and try to mod and suggest our way from there without all the third party thingies.
Occasional Add-Ons can be box-bought or not (I didn't buy Warlords but BtS).

Civ IV worked perfectly like this, so my only idea why Valve changes a winning horse is because they get greedy. Brave new world.

 

[Zechnophobe]

Well, this was the exact OPPOSITE of my reaction to the game using steamworks.

See, for my entire history with Civ games, I'm used to it being regulated to basically single player. Oh sure, there are draconian ways to try and set up a multiplayer game... but due to poor lobbying, games that last many many hours, and other terrible non-multiplayer friendly features, it has never been realistic.

Ruse (Which beta'd on Steam) was also integrated with steamworks... and it was pretty slick. I could join games that my friends were in by using the normal steam interface for it, it already used the same login name so I didn't have to create YET ANOTHER user name and password, and I could use steam's voice chat functions right out the door.

I know am looking forward to those same features as part of Civ5.

Oh, and I think people have gotten just a little silly in their paranoia about Steam/digital distribution in general. Unless you have a 'special' case (like a gamer with no internet connection) then it is 'just better' in a whole lot of ways.

People have learned to buy music digitally. Books too, movies, all sorts of media. After a while the lack of a 'box' isn't a bug... it's a feature. I can't even remember the last time I read a game manual that wasn't a pdf... where I couldn't search, rapidly change pages or copy/paste info I liked to a friend.

 

[Nick Danger]

...it annoys me...it annoys me...it annoys me...it annoys me...

You let yourself get annoyed by this?

Being annoyed is your choice. No one is forcing you to be annoyed, and if you don't like being annoyed by this then you're the one to get 'annoyed' at because it's no one's fault/responsibility but yours. And if you do enjoy being annoyed by this then you should thank the anti-steamers for giving you the opportunity to make yourself steamed.

Is that enough reasons to be annoyed at a shrill minority that claims to speak to everyone?

There you go with the hyperbole again...

Take a cue from folks like Mamba who can argue their view without fallacious arguments like hyperbole, strawman, red herring, etc. Your 'side' has some legitimate arguments and your hyperbole/etc. hurts not helps your cause.

And to answer that question -- no, there's no reason at all -- not a single one -- to become annoyed about any of this.

[Hey, I made the vaulted 30+ posts from this discussion! -- Thanks all! ]

 

[DRJ]

Well, this was the exact OPPOSITE of my reaction to the game using steamworks.

Good for you if you like it. If I don't, I don't want to be forced to do it because "it's just better"
Things go better with Coca Cola, don't they? So maybe I want to drink, but drink Pepsi?
An alternative way should be a good compromise for both fractions? Oh, there shall be no alternative? Why not?!!

Btw. "people learned to..." No, not all of them - a small village resists Rome. I am one of them:
I don't buy music online, I go to concerts in my neighbourhood, I don't buy newspapers online, I use them on my toilet - and I don't buy videos online, I have a new LCD, an USB and I know EZTV.
I do want to support Civ though, but by the good old status quo way. To cancel that is like having a slammed door in your face.

 

[2K Elizabeth]

Nick -

I know what Steam can collect for you (as you do, it's publicly available what they can collect!) but you don't need to GIVE them all that information if you don't want to. You can have very little there and still play the game.

 

[milan]

Hey guys! It's me again.

Two Valve representatives were working with Firaxis in their offices this week and the devs took some time to chat with them about your concerns, and I have three points to make that I think will help a lot of you out.

1. How much memory and disk space does the Steam client use? The client itself takes up less than 20Mb on the drive. Valve has just released a new version of the client which uses less RAM than previous versions, and they’re working on keeping the memory footprint small. I don't have the exact number right now, but I will soon if you are interested.

2. What personally identifiable information does Valve collect with Steam? The only information players are required to provide is a valid email address and a password, and to verify they are older than 13 years of age. All other information is optional, and a player’s profile can be set to private. Valve does track the time spent playing a game, per account, but does not collect information about what other processes are running concurrently on the computer.

3. How often do I have to connect with Steam after the activation? Never again, if you choose to play in offline mode. The Steam client will still start, but will not communicate with the servers. A connection is required to activate the game and an update must be applied at that time, but after the initial activation, a player never again has to connect their computer to the Internet. However, if not connected, the players will not be able to receive updates, save to the cloud, play multiplayer, earn achievements, or receive free content.

Let me know if you have any other questions - we'll do our best to get them answered for you.

I think the main question most of us are wondering about is: Why will steam be obligatory and not a choice? Why don't you make two Civ5 distros - with and without steam so everyone can be happy?
I as many others will not buy a game that ships with steam/any other similar service.

 

[2K Elizabeth]

I think the main question most of us are wondering about is: Why will steam be obligatory and not a choice? Why don't you make two Civ5 distros - with and without steam so everyone can be happy?
I as many others will not buy a game that ships with steam/any other similar service.

Steam is an integral part of the game - we're building the game for and with Steam. That's the simplest way I can explain it. It's part of the game.

 

[Shotgunbadger]

You let yourself get annoyed by this?

Being annoyed is your choice. No one is forcing you to be annoyed, and if you don't like being annoyed by this then you're the one to get 'annoyed' at because it's no one's fault/responsibility but yours. And if you do enjoy being annoyed by this then you should thank the anti-steamers for giving you the opportunity to make yourself steamed.

There you go with the hyperbole again...

Take a cue from folks like Mamba who can argue their view without fallacious arguments like hyperbole, strawman, red herring, etc. Your 'side' has some legitimate arguments and your hyperbole/etc. hurts not helps your cause.

And to answer that question -- no, there's no reason at all -- not a single one -- to become annoyed about any of this.

[Hey, I made the vaulted 30+ posts from this discussion! -- Thanks all! ]

Considering you made 2 posts demanding I answer your question, I hoped you'd address what actually bothered (is that a better word?) me instead of just picking out random words I used and going "HEH why so mad?"

I really could care less, I only even found this thread because a guy in a chat room I visit pointed me to it and I remembered I've been a member here for a bit. You get upset at strawmen but then your entire point is "You're annoyed? Well I guess you're just shaking with rage man, calm down!"

If you're going to repeatedly demand I answer a question, you could respond to my real answer instead of adjectives.

 

[TCMIV]

Way to show the neutrallity of Valve in this equation.

Let us look down the road.
Profitable businesses eventually get sold for profit.
The new owners milk their newly purchased cash cow.
They become fascist (control freaks)
... financial rapists (milk that cow ... alot).
Having become so bloated with their ill-gotten booty,
... they vassal the rest of the world
... and win a domination victory!

(checking the paranoia meter)
Yes! I think that will do it.

My point:
Some of you are too young to appreciate this is not paranoia.
You are teaching companies how to treat you.
You are building the future.
Don't blind yourself to the lessons of history.
If you continue to give up your rights and power to greedy corporations,
you doom us and future generations.

NO to DRM.
NO to DLC.
NO to 3rd party business transactions.
NO to forced choice (ie no choice).
NO to carrot on a stick.

Bolding words like rapist and fascist wont make your post true, sorry. You can go ahead and scare people away, but Valve is a company that clearly cares about their customers (hell, they're giving away a very popular game for FREE right now, that doesn't spell greedy corporation to me).