CivGeneral's Catholicism Thread

[Keirador]

Known Posters who are Catholic, in agreement with Vatican II as well as His Holyness Pope Benedict XVI:
Aussyboy
CivGeneral
Chieftess
Taliesin
Zarn

Tsk, tsk. How quickly we are forgotten.

 

[GenMarshall]

Tsk, tsk. How quickly we are forgotten.

I apologise if I have forgotten to add you .
I removed the list to avoid any more misunderstandings

 

[Keirador]

I remember there was a time when I was just about the only active Catholic apologist on CFC. If memory serves correctly, CG, you came to me with questions about the faith on multiple occasions. Nice to see you've taken your religious leanings to the next level.

 

[GenMarshall]

Nice to see you've taken your religious leanings to the next level.

I have started to take an active aproach to learning about my faith that I had fallen away from and on the road to the Journey Home to the Catholic Church .

 

[Erik Mesoy]

Inq, CG, have either of you read Lewis' The Great Divorce? What's your position on Lewis' apologeticist writings? I think some unification may exist here.

 

[Inqvisitor]

Inq, CG, have either of you read Lewis' The Great Divorce? What's your position on Lewis' apologeticist writings? I think some unification may exist here.

In the end he wakes up.

Read Catholic "apologeticist writings" and take Lewis with a grain of salt.

 

[HighlandWarrior]

He speaks of the Gnostics, the Marcionites, the Eneratites, the Manicheans, and other ancient heretics, who absolutely condemned marriage, and the use of all kind of meat; because they pretended that all flesh was from an evil principle. Whereas the church of God, so far from condemning marriage, holds it a holy sacrament; and forbids it to none but such as by vow have chosen the better part: and prohibits not the use of any meats whatsoever in proper times and seasons; though she does not judge all kind of diet proper for days of fasting and penance



"Of one wife"... The meaning is not that every bishop should have a wife (for St. Paul himself had none), but that no one should be admitted to the holy orders of bishop, priest, or deacon, who had been married more than once.


[Responses courtesy of Fr. Haydock...]


You were taught wrong information.

if marriage is a holy sacrament why can priests, bishops not marry today? as previously quoted a bishop can only have one wife, why can they not have wives today? i cannot believe every priest really wants to stay celebate their whole lives, or is really celebate.

where in the bible does it say we have to confess our sins to a priest? i thought Jesus gave us the power to directly speak to our Lord, not a priest.

how does one become a saint?

where in the bible does it talk about the pope having the authority to excommunicate people?

where is purgatory mentioned in the bible?

what's the deal with praying over a man(or woman) after they died, they are already dead the prayer will not save them?

 

[GenMarshall]

if marriage is a holy sacrament why can priests, bishops not marry today? as previously quoted a bishop can only have one wife, why can they not have wives today? i cannot believe every priest really wants to stay celebate their whole lives, or is really celebate.

Western Rite Catholic Priesthood are not alowed to have wives today because they devote their time to the church and would not have any time for their family

where in the bible does it say we have to confess our sins to a priest? i thought Jesus gave us the power to directly speak to our Lord, not a priest.

Mk 1:15; Lk 15:18.
2 Cor 5:20
Mt 5:24
Lk 15; 19:9

More information here

where in the bible does it talk about the pope having the authority to excommunicate people?

Excommunications are normaly automatic in nature a-la Latæ Sententiæ.

Right of the Church to Excommunicate

The right to excommunicate is an immediate and necessary consequence of the fact that the Church is a society. Every society has the right to exclude and deprive of their rights and social advantages its unworthy or grievously culpable members, either temporarily or permanently. This right is necessary to every society in order that it may be well administered and survive. The fundamental proof, therefore, of the Church's right to excommunicate is based on her status as a spiritual society, whose members, governed by legitimate authority, seek one and the same end through suitable means. Members who, by their obstinate disobedience, reject the means of attaining this common end deserve to be removed from such a society. This rational argument is confirmed by texts of the New Testament, the example of the Apostles, and the practice of the Church from the first ages down to the present. Among the Jews, exclusion from the synagogue was a real excommunication (Ezra 10:8). This was the exclusion feared by the parents of the man born blind (John 9:21 sq.; cf. 12:42; 16:2); the same likewise that Christ foretold to His disciples (Luke 6:22). It is also the exclusion which in due time the Christian Church should exercise: "And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican" (Matthew 18:17). In the celebrated text: "Whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven" (Matthew 18:18; cf. 16:19), it is not only the remission of sins that is referred to, but likewise all spiritual jurisdiction, including judicial and penal sanctions. Such, moreover, was the jurisdiction conferred on St. Peter by the words: "Feed my lambs"; "feed my sheep" (John 21:15, 16, 17). St. Paul excommunicated regularly the incestuous Corinthians (1 Corinthians 5:5) and the incorrigible blasphemers whom he delivered over to Satan (1 Timothy 1:20). Faithful to the Apostolic teaching and example, the Church, from the very earliest ages, was wont to excommunicate heretics and contumacious persons; since the fourth century numerous conciliary canons pronounce excommunication against those who are guilty of certain offences. Of the facts there can be no doubt (Seitz, Die Heilsnotwendigkeit der Kirche, Freiburg, 1903).

where is purgatory mentioned in the bible?

Matt 5:25-26, 1 Pet 3:18-19 and 1 Cor 3:11-15

what's the deal with praying over a man(or woman) after they died, they are already dead the prayer will not save them?

We pray for them to have a safe journey into heaven or shorten a soul's time in Purgatory.

 

[Inqvisitor]

if marriage is a holy sacrament why can priests, bishops not marry today? as previously quoted a bishop can only have one wife, why can they not have wives today? i cannot believe every priest really wants to stay celebate their whole lives, or is really celebate.

Because as stated before, the Church teaches that marriage is such a holy sacrament that a man's life should not be divided between marital duties and the extensive responsibilities he holds as a servant of God. The first bishops (the Apostles) had wives before, which Jesus Christ commanded them to live, signifying the complete dedication they must have in furthering the episcopal mission of Christ.

And every one that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall possess life everlasting.
(Gospel According to Saint Matthew xix. 29)​

where in the bible does it say we have to confess our sins to a priest? i thought Jesus gave us the power to directly speak to our Lord, not a priest.

John was in the desert baptizing, and preaching the baptism of penance, unto remission of sins. And there went out to him all the country of Judea, and all they of Jerusalem, and were baptized by him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.
(Gospel According to Saint Mark i. 4-5)

Confess therefore your sins one to another: and pray one for another, that you may be saved. For the continual prayer of a just man availeth much.
(Epistle Of Saint James v. 16)

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all iniquity.
(First Epistle Of Saint John i. 9)​

how does one become a saint?

You don't "become" a saint. If you follow the will of God you will be welcomed into the communion of saints.

where in the bible does it talk about the pope having the authority to excommunicate people?

It is part of the pope's role as supreme teaching authority. The pope is empowered with the power to discern on such matters. Excommunication merely rebukes someone who has promoted false doctrine as done throughout Acts of the Apostles and the Epistles...

where is purgatory mentioned in the bible?

what's the deal with praying over a man(or woman) after they died, they are already dead the prayer will not save them?

And making a gathering, he sent twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection, For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead, And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them. It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.
(Second Book Of Machabees xii. 43-46)​

 

[Inqvisitor]

When it comes to confession, believers are told in 1 John 1:9 to confess their sins (to God in the context of the passage) and that God is faithful and just to forgive our sins as we do so. James 5:16 speaks of confessing our trespasses “to one another” in particular instances, but this is not the same as doing it to a priest as the Roman Catholic Church teaches. Priests / pastors / church leaders are nowhere mentioned in the context of James 5:16. The Roman Catholic Church bases their practice of confession to a priest on Catholic tradition - and point to the Bible passage in which Jesus tells his disciples (and His church) that whatever they shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven and whatever they shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven (Matthew 16:19; 18:18). However, confession of sin is nowhere mentioned in that passage. Again, the concept of confession of sin to a priest is nowhere taught in Scripture.

Nice copy and paste job from an anti-Catholic source...

 

[GenMarshall]

Edit: Realised my mistake

 

[Inqvisitor]

Actualy, That site is not an anti-Catholic source. Somehow I am getting realy tired of you stating that every source from the internet is "anti-Catholic" .

BS and you know it.

In comparing Roman Catholicism with the Word of God, there are many differences and contradictions. The Roman Catholic church teaches many doctrines that are in disagreement with what the Bible says. These include worship of saints or Mary, prayer to saints or Mary, the pope / papacy, justification by faith plus works, infant baptism, transubstantiation, and purgatory. While Catholics claim Scriptural support for these concepts, none of these teachings have any foundation in the clear teaching of Scripture. In fact, they all clearly contradict what the Bible declares....

Catholic divergence from the Bible on this most crucial of issues means that yes, Catholicism is a false religion. If a person believes what the Catholic Church officially teaches, he/she will not be saved.

 

[HighlandWarrior]

Matt 5:25-26, 1 Pet 3:18-19 and 1 Cor 3:11-15

matt 5:25-26

21 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder,[a] and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ 22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire. 23 Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. 25 Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. 26 Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny.

he is not talking about purgatory here. he's talking about losing your temper and killing your brother & going to prison.

1 Pet 3:18-19


18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us[e] to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited[f] in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.

no purgatory mentioned again. prison is mentioned again, but i am not sure what is being referenced.

1 Cor 3:11-15



Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers through whom you believed, as the Lord gave to each one? 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase. 8 Now he who plants and he who waters are one, and each one will receive his own reward according to his own labor.
9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, you are God’s building. 10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it. 11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.

i could see how that verse could be twisted into being purgatory... got any better verses?


And making a gathering, he sent twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection, For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead, And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them. It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.
(Second Book Of Machabees xii. 43-46)

i don't have the book of machabees in my bible?

Confess therefore your sins one to another: and pray one for another, that you may be saved. For the continual prayer of a just man availeth much.
(Epistle Of Saint James v. 16)

it says to confess your sins to one another, not to a priest, i am not saying it would be bad to confess to the priest also, but it SEEMS like that's the only person catholics confess their sins to.

i also do not have matthew chapter 29 in my bible?

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all iniquity.
(First Epistle Of Saint John i. 9)

again this does not say to confess our sins to the priest.


another question,

where did the catholic name come from?

 

[GenMarshall]

where did the catholic name come from?

The Word catholic comes from the Greek καθόλου which means "universal".

Now I hope Inqvisitor would find approval in that statement .

 

[Chieftess]

Actualy, That site is not an anti-Catholic source. Somehow I am getting realy tired of you stating that every source from the internet is "anti-Catholic" .

CG - for once, Inqvistor has a point. Scroll down.

-->

It would be best to research where your sources are coming from. You just grabbed a reference from a Baptist site.

What does it mean to be a born again Christian? <-- Keyword here is "born again". That's a protestant belief.

What is the Sinner's Prayer? <-- Another protestant belief in some churches.

What does it mean to accept Jesus as your personal Savior? <-- This is a common Southern Baptist line.

Just about every question here says, "Sola Scriptura" (By the scripture only). That's very protestant.


In short - watch where you tread on the Internet. There's protestant sites out there that will say stuff like, "Christian Theology Answers", etc. They're not always true.



I see two problems right off the bat if I want to use this site as a Catholic reference:

1 - It says BAPTIST!!!
2 - Would a Christian site really brag about being the top 100th, or top 1,000th site? Think about that.

 

[Sidhe]

I may be wrong here, but isn't purgatory an invention of novelists of the late middle ages and renaisance? The bible doesn't have alot to say about hell itself, or it's waiting room IIRC, I think the hellfire and brimstone ideas were all bandied about as scare tactics for sinners. I doubt it's peaches and cream but I don't remember the bible going into depth into it's exact specifications, hell as we envision it is pretty much our own idea and doesn't exist.

I think priests not being able to marry may have been passed off as some sort of adherence to an ideal, but I think it makes more sense to see it as a way of the churches wealth passing back to the church and avoiding inheritence to families.

 

[Erik Mesoy]

hell as we envision it is pretty much our own idea and doesn't exist.

Source?

 

[Till]

I may be wrong here, but isn't purgatory an invention of novelists of the late middle ages and renaisance? The bible doesn't have alot to say about hell itself, or it's waiting room IIRC, I think the hellfire and brimstone ideas were all bandied about as scare tactics for sinners. I doubt it's peaches and cream but I don't remember the bible going into depth into it's exact specifications, hell as we envision it is pretty much our own idea and doesn't exist.

I think priests not being able to marry may have been passed off as some sort of adherence to an ideal, but I think it makes more sense to see it as a way of the churches wealth passing back to the church and avoiding inheritence to families.

If i recall, Limbo was invented in the renaisance (by Dante). Maybe you are confusing it with purgatory? Or maybe both came about at that time.

 

[Inqvisitor]

CG - for once, Inqvistor has a point. Scroll down.

-->

It would be best to research where your sources are coming from. You just grabbed a reference from a Baptist site.

What does it mean to be a born again Christian? <-- Keyword here is "born again". That's a protestant belief.

What is the Sinner's Prayer? <-- Another protestant belief in some churches.

What does it mean to accept Jesus as your personal Savior? <-- This is a common Southern Baptist line.

Just about every question here says, "Sola Scriptura" (By the scripture only). That's very protestant.


In short - watch where you tread on the Internet. There's protestant sites out there that will say stuff like, "Christian Theology Answers", etc. They're not always true.



I see two problems right off the bat if I want to use this site as a Catholic reference:

1 - It says BAPTIST!!!
2 - Would a Christian site really brag about being the top 100th, or top 1,000th site? Think about that.

Indeed CivGeneral, so incredibly na&#239;ve yet willfull...if only you had an open mind as wide as your mouth...

When it comes to confession, believers are told in 1 John 1:9 to confess their sins (to God in the context of the passage) and that God is faithful and just to forgive our sins as we do so. James 5:16 speaks of confessing our trespasses &#8220;to one another&#8221; in particular instances, but this is not the same as doing it to a priest as the Roman Catholic Church teaches. Priests / pastors / church leaders are nowhere mentioned in the context of James 5:16. The Roman Catholic Church bases their practice of confession to a priest on Catholic tradition - and point to the Bible passage in which Jesus tells his disciples (and His church) that whatever they shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven and whatever they shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven (Matthew 16:19; 18:18). However, confession of sin is nowhere mentioned in that passage. Again, the concept of confession of sin to a priest is nowhere taught in Scripture.

Could not you have least used a Novus Ordo website that at least pretends to be Catholic? That doesn't answer Highland Warrior's question at all- all it did was in fact re-iterate the very anti-Catholic charges he was trying to make...

Do you have no idea of Catholic theology at all? I think the line "confession of sin to a priest is nowhere taught in Scripture" would make it clear this is a heterodox statement even if it came off the Vatican website.

Moderator Action: You will cease trolling other posters. You will not get another warning. I believe your next ban is set to be a very long one. Eyrei.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Zarn]

Indeed CivGeneral, so incredibly naïve yet willfull...if only you had an open mind as wide as your mouth...

Oh, the irony of such a statement.

If CG should be more open minded, then why are those 3 previously mentioned freedoms forbidden by you?