Civilization 5 Rants Thread

[SuperJay]

I'm not so sure. After all, many people requested Giant Death Robots on these forums. The feeling I get is that many people only played Civ as a "sandbox game"... They enjoyed playing mods and used the world builder to create nukes.

The ones like us, who stayed up all at night, taking notes and doing efficiency calculations, just to be successful in the un-modded game... I'd say we're in the minority.

Haha, maybe, maybe. Who knows. That's the funny thing about all this - I was never the hardcore type of Civ4 player; never used a spreadsheet or did any calculations, really... I just liked a deep, immersive, 4X game and I'd grown up playing Civ since the first Civilization came out when I was in junior high. It was never a question of whether to get the latest incarnation, it was CIV!

My point was more that I think Firaxis is using Civ5 to try and go after the crowd that never played any 4X game at all - maybe never played any TBS game, at all. Ironically, I hope it actually works out that way, b/c at least a big crowd of new Civ players would be something gained for everything that got lost.

But yeah, good seein you around again.

 

[Bad Brett]

Haha, maybe, maybe. Who knows. That's the funny thing about all this - I was never the hardcore type of Civ4 player; never used a spreadsheet or did any calculations, really... I just liked a deep, immersive, 4X game and I'd grown up playing Civ since the first Civilization came out when I was in junior high. It was never a question of whether to get the latest incarnation, it was CIV!

Ahh memories. I'm a bit younger, I think I was 7 years old when I started playing Civ. I quickly moved up to Emperor (the highest difficulty level if I recall correctly) and got 153%, which I was very proud of.

Then I got CivNet and played hotseat against my older brothers. I remember that I enjoyed that you could create your own leaderhead.

When I got older my brother got Civ II... I used to borrow his computer while he was away... There was something wrong with that computer, because the processor occasionally stopped, which was rather annoying when I had conquered several AI cities without saving... Luckily, this problem could be solved by giving the computer case a solid kick, which often was enough to revive the processor. Good times.

My point was more that I think Firaxis is using Civ5 to try and go after the crowd that never played any 4X game at all - maybe never played any TBS game, at all. Ironically, I hope it actually works out that way, b/c at least a big crowd of new Civ players would be something gained for everything that got lost.

But yeah, good seein you around again.

Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. Many of the oldtimers wouldn't be willing to pay for DLC or even use Steam. But the franschise itself is worth a lot of money, so they probably decided that it was time to attract a younger audience. Which I can understand, even though I don't like the fact that they lied to us.

 

[RD-BH]

... yeah, coz after a 15 minute adrenaline rush from Starcraft II
... ... youngin's need 10 hours cooldown playing Civ 5

 

[Thormodr]

To be totally honest, Civilization 5 still is a massive disappointment and will likely always be regarded as a failure and the worst iteration of the franchise.

I'm just waiting on proper modding tools so some talented modders can at least try and salvage what they can from this mass market, casualized dreck.

For now though, I'll sit back and enjoy the music:


Link to video.

Hmmm...Sid Meir even looks a little like Benny Hill. Lol.

 

[headcase]

Funny story about the New Coke. When Coke went back to the Coca Cola Classic formula, they left one change from the New Coke days intact: using high-fructose corn syrup instead of sugar. This was the single biggest change between the two formulas, and the single biggest cost-cutting measure, and no one complained that "Classic" now had it. Hopefully Civ fans will have a little more of an eye for details than Coke fans.

 

[Thormodr]

Funny story about the New Coke. When Coke went back to the Coca Cola Classic formula, they left one change from the New Coke days intact: using high-fructose corn syrup instead of sugar. This was the single biggest change between the two formulas, and the single biggest cost-cutting measure, and no one complained that "Classic" now had it. Hopefully Civ fans will have a little more of an eye for details than Coke fans.

Read my link I presume?

Conspiracy theories

Coca-Cola's sudden reversal on New Coke led to several rumors and conspiracy theories that have circulated in the years since to explain how a company with the resources and experience of Coca-Cola could have made such an apparently colossal blunder.

Some explanations that have been proffered are:

The company intentionally changed the formula, hoping consumers would be upset with the company, and demand the original formula to return, which in turn would cause sales to spike.[1] Keough answered this speculation by saying "We're not that dumb, and we're not that smart".[1][59]
The putative switch was planned all along to cover the change from sugar-sweetened Coke to much less expensive high fructose corn syrup (HFCS), a theory that was supposedly given credence by the apparently different taste of Coke Classic when it first hit the market (the U.S. sugar trade association took out a full-page ad lambasting Coke for using HFCS in all bottling of the old formula when it was reintroduced[41]).
It provided cover for the final removal of all coca derivatives from the product to placate the Drug Enforcement Administration, which was trying to eradicate the plant worldwide to combat an increase in cocaine trafficking and consumption. While Coke's executives were indeed relieved the new formula contained no coca, and concerned about the long-term future of the Peruvian government-owned coca fields that supplied it in the face of increasing DEA pressure to end cultivation of the crop, there was no direct pressure from the DEA on Coca-Cola to do so.

Anyway, there is no conspiracy theory with Civilization 5. Long time fans do indeed have an eye for detail and we know what we want. It certainly isn't the casualized, mass market crap that is Civilization 5.

 

[Freesmog]

To be totally honest, Civilization 5 still is a massive disappointment and will likely always be regarded as a failure and the worst iteration of the franchise.

I'm just waiting on proper modding tools so some talented modders can at least try and salvage what they can from this mass market, casualized dreck.

I agree, have not considered trying Civ5 again until a mod fixes the issues, which I don't see happening especially with inadequate modding tools (which I've heard). Still playing Civ4 mods, and with the current Consolitis trend, how could Civ6 be an improvement over Civ5?

 

[Bad Brett]

To be totally honest, Civilization 5 still is a massive disappointment and will likely always be regarded as a failure and the worst iteration of the franchise.

Only until Civ VI comes out...

I thought Bluebyte ruined Settlers when Settlers III came out, but today I think that game is pretty awesome compared to the new crap they release.

I thought it was a mistake of Microprose to sell the rights to Railroad Tycoon and I never liked Railroad Tycoon II or III. But when Railroads! came out, those two game suddenly began to look pretty awesome.

Since Civ has a new fanbase now, there are endless ways to make the game even worse. It's just a question of time until they include units like druids and paladins. And leaders with special powers that can complete quests. I even seriously doubt that the next iteration will be turn-based. Just look at CivWorld. Kids these days have very little patience.

 

[uat2d]

Kids these days have very little patience.

"Hurr durr, kids these days are not like the kids from back in the day! "

 

[Teagen]

1. Crossbowmen upgrading to riflemen
-This is incredibly awkward as the upgrades crossbowmen get have no benefit for the rest of the game once they need to become upgraded. For all intents and purposes crossbowmen become totally obsolete once musketmen are available. This is especially hard on England with a UU of the longbowman. It's entirely more beneficial to make a new units with barracks/armory promotions then waste the gold upgrading a crossbowmen.

2. Turtleships and Ironclads penalized too harshly
-Korea's turtleships are basically the caraval's version of the ironclad...and they both suck. Losing movespeed and not being able to enter oceans is a horrendous price to pay for a simple combat bonus. What's worse about the turtleship is the caravel is usually the unit that is used to explore the far away world and get NW's so korea is deadlocked to their continent all the way until they can make frigates. Naval combat is never all that important anyway so the combat bonus is rarely if ever noticed much.

3. UU's with only Combat bonus lose benefits on upgrade, other UU's do not.
-Musketeers, Ballistas, hopilites, and landsknecht's are the ones that come to mind the most for what i'd call "bland" UU's (not bad UU's). The problem being they retain no advantages of their UU status when upgraded, while other UU's (i'd call "snazzy" UU's) retain their unique upgrades.

Janissary's and Immortals are a good example of this. Musketeers upgrade into regular riflemen, janissary's upgrade into riflemen with their 25% offense bonus and heal bonus. Hopiltes upgrade into regular pikemen, Immortals upgrade into Pikemen with a double heal rate. It's blatently bias in favor of the unique upgrades!

4. The AI is mind-numbingly unforgiving.
-Once you start a war....despite any other factors, once you take a city...you are hated FOREVER. You will NEVER get them off "guarded" for more then a few turns....ever. You can never get another open boarders deal, very difficult to trade luxuries....nothing. It does not matter if you defeated a bully juggernaut bent on taking over the world.....they will hate you for it....for all time. This definately needs change.

 

[Iranon]

Kids have no patience and don't respect their elders like we used to. That complaint has been around for thousands of years at least, probably since the start of civilization.

If looking at mainstream entertainment, intelligence-insulting over-commercialised junk may hav been MORE prevalent 25 years ago.
Mainstream *gaming* may be in decline because it started catering to a large part of the general population instead of a few enthusiasts... but even that is doubtful. On the upside the larger audience means ever bigger budgets become feasible for pushing technology, and for those still disgusted despite the eye candy there are more great independent titles available than ever before.

 

[Grimberht]

We simply over think it... its 2k being 2k nothing else.

They use the "easy marketing" route of buying marquee names, period... there's nothing more to it. The "attract new market argument" is a PR response to the community being mad, not some grand scheme in the franchise development.

2K buys names because the hype build itself up, they dont have to put resources in making the actual game, they can release their crappy products on the market which is selling itself in presales to a profitable state, then buy another marquee name and repeat. They did not backstab the community, they just never cared about it, they didnt even try to understand... they basically sold us a name and we felt for it. Guys like Shafer, who, I think, really tried to bring the franchise somewhere fresh, just got killed by those people on the "we dont give a "damn" altar".

As long has companies like 2k will be in business... this wont end. In the long term, this marketing strategy is bond to fail. After that... maybe it will come back to a where it should be. Even if Blizzard isnt perfect, they are an example that business can be very successful while supporting their games and their communities, while on the otherside of the spectrum, there is the 2K's kind who struggles indefinitely to dodge bankruptcy. So there's hope

Until then, I'll go back to occasional lurking, 2k bashing every opportunity I get, CIV 4 and SC2.



P.S. I think that you guys who are still arguing in hope that it can be saved is really a testament on how the franchise is loved and how deeply we cared about it. You might just be the ones who keep some part of it alive while most of us has sadly, but understandably, fallen to indifference. GJ

 

[Mesix]

There is no upgrade path for scouts.

The usefulness of the scout is short lived at the beginning of the game. The promotion path when a scout gains levels is rarely seen because of the limited usefulness as other units upgrade with technology. A possible promotion path might be scout -> hunter -> ranger. They should be less effective than combat troops of a particular era, but be useful in there own right as fog busters, artillery spotters, or to take out soft strategic targets behind enemy lines.

 

[MantaRevan]

The scout takes very little to build though. Two turns usually, from the start of the game. You aren't exactly making a huge investment.

 

[avdale]

When you are at war with an enemy civ you are automatically declared on by any of their allied city states. However if you make peace with that civ you are still at war with their allied city states until you manually click the button and make peace with them.

It's one of those minor things which can screw you over in that freak scenario. Going for a cultural victory. Japan and an allied CS right next to me declare on me. Make peace with Japan but forget about the CS. A GA pops in the city Japan was going for. Walking him over to my capital when the city state's lone unit walks over and snipes him.

 

[Camikaze]

Moderator Action: Teagen's thread merged.

 

[Mesix]

When you are at war with an enemy civ you are automatically declared on by any of their allied city states. However if you make peace with that civ you are still at war with their allied city states until you manually click the button and make peace with them.

It's one of those minor things which can screw you over in that freak scenario. Going for a cultural victory. Japan and an allied CS right next to me declare on me. Make peace with Japan but forget about the CS. A GA pops in the city Japan was going for. Walking him over to my capital when the city state's lone unit walks over and snipes him.

This mechanic can also be abused to get a cheesy UN Vote. You can use the AI funds to do it as well.

1. Sell your resources to the AI for their surplus gold.
2. Use the proceeds from the sale of your resources to get alliances with the CS.
3. Declare war on the AI and all of the CS will side with you making it impossible for the AI to buy them out.
4. Repeat as many times as necessary to get the UN win. You get back all of the resources you sold for gold when you declare war. If you cannot get alliances with all of the CS from the first round of resource selling, just sell the same resources to another AI player and DOW them too (getting back your resources again...rinse...repeat).

 

[Bandobras Took]

Long time fans do indeed have an eye for detail and we know what we want. It certainly isn't the casualized, mass market crap that is Civilization 5.

I always love how one person identifies his/herself as all the long-time fans of a series and proceeds to tell me what I want. I didn't want the casualized, mass market crap that is Civ 3, and yet, somehow, Civ 4 got made.

 

[bitula]

I really doubt we will see a mod like this. It would be a MASSIVE amount of work and you could easily get to an invisible wall that makes your whole project impossible after you spend month of work on it. And if one likes CiV4 more than 5 anyway, why wouldn't he just mod CIV4 which is houndred times more moddable? Well, maybe some people are looking for a true challenge but I doubt it.

My problem is though, that modding community for CIV4 is significantly less active (at least it was so 4 or 5 months ago). And why? Because Civ5 has "came to existance". One more reason to hate it... Even if Civ5 is a peace of junk, community modders tend to see it as a new platform and hope for things which may never happen (like source dll). Meanwhile support for Civ4 mods is significantly dropped (for example Fall from Heaven ant its iterations FF, Erebus etc). It always happens so with newer versions of games, I dont know, this is some kind of mental mass malady, people just dont want to return to something older and usually no amount of rationalism will help. I admit I am also at least partially somehow influenced by this mass trend, it simply does not feel good to go back to something "old". Also, Im not sure that Civ5 is less modable, we will have to see after the source code is released, this is why for me everything revolves around the so awaited dll source. It is really the central most important issue. And yes, you are right, full remodding of the game will take very long, probably years, nevertheless, if it will come out that the game is well modable it will eventually happen.

 

[Bad Brett]

I didn't want the casualized, mass market crap that is Civ 3, and yet, somehow, Civ 4 got made.

I don't quite understand what you mean. I never really liked Civ 3 either, but it's still much more complex than Civ 2. I'd say that Civ 3 introduced more concepts than Civ 4 did.

Civ 5 is more like a console game and it's easy to tell that they wanted to attract a new, younger audience. Removal of the slider, science from population, one-time RPG bonuses instead of flexible governments, simplified diplomacy...