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Civilization elimination thread

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by Bakspatel, Aug 23, 2012.

  1. PhilBowles

    PhilBowles Deity

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    The key being "both those techs". You need to take a tech you may not need immediately to gain the culture benefit from the Mosque + Amphitheater, while the Pyramid is a science boost you get 'free' on the tech path you need to go down anyway. The Mosque is more a way of avoiding the need to quickly shoot for a culture building, so the analogy is closer to saying that Songhai is a culture civ in the same way the Maya are a warmonger civ, since they get an Atlatlist who allows them to delay Archery.

    I think if we're talking about a Civ's focus we're talking about the way it can be played to best effect. Delaying Theology is not playing the Maya to best effect, in the same way that playing Babylon wide and/or not shooting for early Education is not playing Babylon to best effect. As so often pointed out, Maya GPs aren't free - they cost the same as any other 5 GPs (Admirals and Generals don't count towards the cost). Going for Theology early is important (quite apart from the timing of the Academy) because the interval between GPs is so much less, and you can more readily time them to your tech progression (after all, how often are you going to remember that 394 years are up later in the game?). Getting an 'unwanted' GP is trivial - you can get it late, it's still useful even if not your ideal choice, as Maya playing wide you probably aren't focusing on targeted GP production anyway, and it will come so late that (with the boost from getting GPs early) the game may well be decided by the time the final one hits, and/or if you are specialising in GP production you're churning them out every few turns anyway so a slight delay is a non-issue.

    Science (and all Civ resources) is cumulative - that's the whole point of beaker bonuses at all. Pyramids + Messenger of the Gods is more powerful than either individually. This isn't a game with a certain number of beakers per turn you need to have by turn X, and there are several interchangeable ways of doing so, it's a game where the more beakers you have the better.

    My experience on Immortal and Deity is that the first religions are founded while shrines/pyramids are still being built in third or later cities, and sometimes in the second city. Like Shrines, Pyramids give you more faith to play with once you've founded a religion, but they're much more reliable for getting a pantheon you want than a religion you want.

    again, I'm talking about how the Maya can be played optimally. Yes, you can rush a random Wonder early, but what Wonders are there worth rushing that early in the game that fall along a tech path the Maya will want to take at that stage, and that f have synergy with everything else they're doing at that game stage? Conceivably Great Mosque ... if, of course, you want Interfaith Dialogue to boost your science. Not much else. After all, you've just taken the Theology path, so you either need to go back to earlier-period techs whose Wonders are likely to be unavailable by this point, or you take something along the path you're already on. Which basically means Great Mosque (=Interfaith Dialogue = science focus), Oracle (usually a waste of an Engineer since you can hard-build it even on Deity, supports all victories but does produce scientist points), or Porcelain Tower.

    The point is that a civ works best when all its elements act with synergy, and the only way this is the case with the Maya is when they aim to play the science game. Theology beeline means Pyramids for science, National College, Library and a good position to go for Education. Pyramid faith means quick Pantheon, and the empire's intrinsic wide focus benefits from that Pantheon being Messenger of the Gods. And now you're committed to that tech path, the best choices of Great People are those that facilitate a science-based strategy.
     
  2. duhu

    duhu Chieftain

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    91
    Arabia 16
    Babylon 13
    China 12
    Inca 27
    Korea 25
    Maya 9
    Persia 12

    Long count takes too long. Babylon science boost is a better specialty.
     
  3. Lord Kid

    Lord Kid Warlord

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    Took the words right out of my mouth. Terrace farms are super powerful now. With enough hills and mountains, Incans can easily run a super specialist city and still be incredible productive. Add in Workshop and others and they're absolutely incredible.
     
  4. Hammer Rabbi

    Hammer Rabbi Deity GOTM Staff

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    PhilBowles, you might be talking about playing a civ optimally when i dont think that was the case in any of my arguments. every civ has an optimal formula that i would imagine gets boring through repetition. the way for it to not get boring is to change the play style which usually means playing sub-optimally. (that, and playing other civs, haha.) some people find sub-optimal pointless where others see variety and changes fun.

    games like civ v appeal to number crunchers and min/max type players but it also has room for lots of other players so this game leads to interesting debates on "how" one should play it.
     
  5. JMLOng

    JMLOng Chieftain

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    21
    Location:
    Australia
    Arabia 16
    Babylon 11- These guys are pretty cool with good bonuses but they're probably my least favorite of whats left. Also their architecture looks a bit weird.
    China 12
    Inca 27
    Korea 25
    Maya 10+Love to ICS and these guys are the best. The pyramid is almost a must for this strategy.
    Persia 12
     
  6. Tachii

    Tachii Procrastinator

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    Incans don't have a desert bias. Would love it if they did though.
     
  7. PhilBowles

    PhilBowles Deity

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    Fair enough, but I understood your original analogy to be arguing that Maya aren't a science civ (just as Songhai isn't a culture civ), which simply isn't the case. You don't necessarily need to play them to maximise science - as in your other example, you play Babylon without maximising science - but surely you wouldn't say on that basis that Babylon isn't a science civ?
     
  8. Dogmouth

    Dogmouth King

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    No, but the hillside bias seems to frequently put them in Peralicious desert hills. Any other civ would likely have the same desert frequency, but they would be less likely to have desert hills.
     
  9. Crafty Bison

    Crafty Bison King

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    Arabia 14
    Babylon 12
    China 12
    Inca 27
    Korea 25
    Maya 11
    Persia 13

    Arabia's UB doesn't work on MP or on maps with few opponents. The UU is good but promotions do not work with upgrade.

    Persia just feels super strong each time I play with them. It's like CiV, but on steroids.
     
  10. Gucumatz

    Gucumatz JS, secretly Rod Serling

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    Arabia's UB does work in MP too :p. Just not as often, not as exploitable, etc.

    People still trade luxuries with one another - just deals don't last as long, are more precarious, etc.
     
  11. Furycrab

    Furycrab King

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    Arabia 14
    Babylon 9
    China 12
    Inca 27
    Korea 26
    Maya 10
    Persia 13

    I love this babylon vs Korea argument hehe. @Phil you can't forget the Science bonus per Science building. I play on Deity so the Great Library is a bit laughable. However with a 4 city science build you can use the Science bonus from the first Library + the NC and eventually the University for some efficient shots into getting into the Renaissance (that's 24 turns worth). I quite often end up using my first spy to steal my way into the renaissance to be more defensively sound but if RAs weren't so broken, I'd love to test out turn speeds without the Great Library or anything ridiculous.

    Personally I just like the flexibility, sure you want to open tradition, but after that you can go a mix of several things or just beeline the renaissance and play for speed. When I play Babylon it's almost all about trying to get my Universities up ASAP.

    Edit: Corrected for Bisons post.
     
  12. Crafty Bison

    Crafty Bison King

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    Ok, doesn't work as well. I'd kinda hoped that'd been inferred. Arabia's a good civ, it's just we're getting to the final few and I like the others more.
     
  13. PhilBowles

    PhilBowles Deity

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    But they trade them for other luxuries. Which is an okay bonus for a UB, but if Arabia was selling itself on having extra happiness from Bazaars, it wouldn't be anywhere close to the top 7. Either way, it doesn't belong in this list any more.

    There's no need to convince me - I made most if not all of these points when I was defending Korea against Mesix's downvotes right at the start of the thread. And certainly Korea is the more flexible (and to me as well the more interesting) civ. The only real decision you ever make with Babylon is whether to go OCC or 2-4 cities. I'm unsure, though - do you get a bigger tech boost from the GL than from the Library by itself? On any difficulty level the extra time committed to building the GL compared with just having a Library makes it fairly mediocre, but on Emperor (haven't played Korea since switching to Immortal, or in my occasional Deity games) I'd always go for it just for the Korean tech boost. Nevertheless, Babylonian Academy + NC is a difficult boost to beat quickly when it's several techs further down the line that Korea will be making significant science saviings. The most I got from the GL was free The Wheel (which I hadn't started researching) in addition to the GL tech, so the boost from GL only seemed to be 4-5 turns.

    And back to the main subject, looking at the list as a whole Babylon now ranks below the Maya. Purely looking at the three science civs from a comparative perspective, I don't think that's right - Maya are far superior at science than any non-Babylon, non-Korea civ, but I wouldn't rank them above either of the top two science civs.

    I've never really got Persia to work, to the point that I don't even have the 5 GA achievement, and my one victory with them was a science victory that didn't owe anything appreciable to the UA. They are however an obviously powerful civ.
     
  14. Furycrab

    Furycrab King

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    But but... Camel Archers are awesome! :p

    I've had wars turn on a dime the moment I upgraded a number of Chariot Archers. :)

    Personally I'm surprised the Incans are easily going to make top 5. Maybe it's some deep rooted hate, but because of the way the AI calculates it's desire to DOW you, unless I play on an island map, the incans end up being complete jerks that expand a lot. If I see him first, I practically ready up the gold for archers and walls immediately :p.


    The Great Library doesn't really count, it only counts because you get a Library at the same time of building. Since you might want to get the Library a "touch" later as Korea, there's no real advantage, in fact, in terms of pure speed Babylon is probably a little faster... However real boring. :p I've been playing a lot of Deity so I haven't factored it in my builds in a good time.
     
  15. PhilBowles

    PhilBowles Deity

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    True, but so are Keshiks, and Camel Archers aren't so much better that Arabia should be so far ahead of Mongolia. Similarly, due to the fact that it can now upgrade the Cho-Ko-Nu may actually be the best UU in the game, but China as a civ still doesn't belong in the top tier. Someone made a good point earlier that I'd neglected regarding the extra rate of GG production and the resulting citadels, but even that's something of a niche use and I'd rather take Sweden for the added flexibility if I want to enhance GG production.

    I sometimes found that in vanilla, but I haven't formed much impression of Pachacuti in G&K - I haven't noticed him being overtly aggressive. The only warmonger AI I particularly hate is Bismarck - Suleiman's pretty much as bad for backstabbing, but at least when he does go to war it's a lot more entertaining to play than endless pike spam (and he seems to have one of the better combat AIs). And even so I warmed to Bismarck in one recent game when he was - uniquely - my ally game-long (even taking nukes on my behalf).
     
  16. Furycrab

    Furycrab King

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    Hehe, I just always kinda like Arabia, they never seem to break it into any list for specific victory conditions, but they are still damn fun. I also love the fire and move the Camel Archers get, they can whittle down significantly larger cities.

    Pachacuti has a strange mix of AI flavors that predisposes him to a type of aggression I don't like. He expands fairly aggressively, he treats distances as if everything was closer than it really is, and he is usually willing to Backstab. I haven't looked at the exact values, but he's really hard to make friends with unless separated by water... and watch your back if you do.
     
  17. PhilBowles

    PhilBowles Deity

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    Sounds like he's just like Hiawatha, only usually a more successful civ.
     
  18. Gucumatz

    Gucumatz JS, secretly Rod Serling

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    I just don't see how Arabia doesn't belong in this list anymore. Particularly with China and Persia left on it. The versatility, the gold from routes, the double oil, yes... the gold and boost from happy - coupled with a sturdier version of basically what is considered as the best UU in game?

    Of course it deserves to stay in. With Petra, with religion, with Camel Archers actually being improved even more in GK, earlier markets, etc.

    It makes a strong case for the #1 Civ. I can honestly say at least though - each of these civs deserve its place here more so than a civ like Siam which is limited, easy to stunt in multiplayer, weak UU, a UB with limited range, etc.
     
  19. DGDobrev

    DGDobrev Warlord

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    @PhilBowles

    What kind of strategy do you propose then? He settled 4 cities, capital next to a mountain, got GL for early GS point, slapped in the specialists and is making up ground. I see nothing faulty in his strategy. On the side note, I don't really like the idea of generating a ton of various GP - granted you get some extra gold, some extra culture or faith, but in the end, every generated or "free" GP raises the cost for the next one to spawn, which is hindering the advantage. If you want BPT, you are way better off generating only GS, with an occasional GE as boost for an important project.

    I'd readily try a new tactic with Korea, if you have one to offer. So far, the way I see it 4 cities + Messenger of the Gods + Specialists + Planted GP's is the best and most balanced one that Korea offers - besides, not easy to keep happiness in check on Deity too...

    With Babylon or From Babylon? I had one while playing as Korea and it really freaking hurt. Dunno how, but Nebby managed to CoD me around T40 with 7-8 Warriors and 10+ Bowmen and I saw my capital fall for the VERY FIRST time. Wasn't pleasant. At all. Next time I will settle on a hill with Korea no matter how many strategics and luxuries I see around me.

    @FuryCrab
    You can get to build the GL in like 1% of all Deity games, as it is always built around T25-29. You can manage it only under very unlikely conditions: like Babylon starting in a high-production area and popping a Writing tech Ruin (still not guarantted, but at least this gives you a chance), or Spain with GBR start on T1 or 2 so that you can go for Writing ASAP.
    Stealing tech is a double edge though - you may well got denounced and/or DOW'd in no time if you do it often. In addition to that, seeing your fully upgraded Spy being killed in action is a big loss.


    While I agree with the reasoning concerning why many players would find Babylon boring, it is also the case with many other civs, as you only have 5 victory conditions and you have to go for one of them. Almost every civ going for the same victory condition employs similar tactics. Science is all out BPT and RA's, Culture is wonder building + happiness + Piety + Freedom, Domination is all about getting Honor and cranking out the proper units to beat the enemy and Diplo is all about beelining to Globalization for the UN.
     
  20. Furycrab

    Furycrab King

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    @DGdobrev

    On Deity and Great Library... Oh I know. You could in Vanilla increase the odds by either turning off ruins and doctoring the AI Civs to those that don't go for writing first. I play deity, but I know a lot of readers don't play on a difficulty where the GL/NC slingshot is practically impossible, and it's certainly something a good player should have in his books for multiplayer. I can't however compare accurately singleplayer times till a major bug gets ironed out, but when I will, it will be builds without the GL (since I can't build it)

    Deity AIs will almost always get banking, and practically all of them cept the ones that get kicked to the curve will get it before you can get to renaissance. The particular steal I mentioned isn't even hard to pull off since you don't need to go after the tech leader. I stick to people I know I won't get along with for very long and usually I'm done stealing by the time I'm out of the renaissance... However I find what I end up doing after to be a bit cheesy and since like I said... RAs are broken, I'm not quite sure what I should be doing with the spies.

    *for those wondering, after I run out of Civs I don't plan on signing RAs with, I tend to have my spy jumping around in order to pick up intrigue for Diplo bonuses... The diplo bonuses I find kinda cheesy... However on the other hand, the diplo hit for being caught is huge so all you really have left kinda sucks.
     

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