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Civilization elimination thread

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by Bakspatel, Aug 23, 2012.

  1. Buccaneer

    Buccaneer Deity

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2001
    Messages:
    3,562
    Arabia 15
    Babylon 9
    China 12
    Inca 25
    Korea 26
    Maya 10
    Persia 13

    Neither Incas or Korea should be that high, imo. Incas can be a very pathetic opponent at times. Conversely, Arabia and China are my top two.
     
  2. Awsome Sause

    Awsome Sause Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2012
    Messages:
    68
    Arabia 15
    Babylon 7
    China 12
    Inca 25
    Korea 26
    Maya 11
    Persia 13

    Babylon: A good Civ But I find there UU and UB lacking!

    Maya: best Civ for going very wide in my opinion. Pyramids with messenger of the gods pantheon will give you a tech lead and there UA will give you great people that you wouldn't get for going so wide.
     
  3. Bandersnatching

    Bandersnatching Warlord

    Joined:
    May 14, 2012
    Messages:
    248
    Arabia 15
    Babylon 7
    China 12
    Inca 25 -2 = 23
    Korea 26
    Maya 11 +1 = 12
    Persia 13

    Disclaimer: I voted yesterday, but it was less than 24 hours ago. I don't plan on voting anymore today. Are we supposed to vote once each day, or once every 24 hours?

    I'm upvoting Maya again because I don't think they (or Babylon, for that matter) should be eliminated just yet. They are just too much fun to play, and Pyramids are my favorite UB in the game.

    Was considering downvoting Korea, but I have much more fun playing as them than I do playing Inca. The terrace farm can be wonderful, but it can also be extremely 'meh'. I've never fought a war with Hwatcha that wasn't fun.
     
  4. bbobb23

    bbobb23 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2012
    Messages:
    27
    Location:
    Canada
    Arabia 15
    Babylon 8 (+1)
    China 12
    Inca 23
    Korea 26
    Maya 12
    Persia 11 (-2)

    Persia: they're ok but the rest are the best

    Babylon: UA is amazing, the bowmans are great and the UB isnt too bad, overall a great civ
     
  5. HelloGoodbye123

    HelloGoodbye123 Warlord

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2009
    Messages:
    284
    Location:
    U.S.A California
    Would have thought that korea with their +200% Hwat'ch glich where you upgrade from catapult to UU would have been broken enough to be one of the first civs to go out .. surprised at how its still there heh

    I think the purpose of this thread should have been more accurate, for example buccaneer is voting against inca for being weak while voting for arabs/china for being strong, yet other players are voting other civs for being heavily strong out of the game. Which it just contradicts, i am still lost of the purpose of this thread !!!!
     
  6. GhostSalsa

    GhostSalsa Emperor

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2012
    Messages:
    1,010
    Location:
    Austin, TX
    Arabia 15
    Babylon 8
    China 13
    Inca 23
    Korea 26
    Maya 10
    Persia 11

    Maya - I appreciate the novelty value of their UA but I find it too rote, it distracts from the organic experience of playing. UB is great of course. AI of Maya is a pain to have as a neighbor, always founding a religion and spamming it like crazy even when turtling.

    China - their UA is so brilliant. You can focus on peaceful culture or science in the open of the game and then when you get dragged into war pop a GG and be all like "well since you ASKED for a fight..." A fav.
     
  7. cman2010

    cman2010 King

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2010
    Messages:
    740
    everyone is voting for there favorite civs. Nice to see you back by the way I allways enjoy your tips. Im going to play bablyon for my next game( I have never payed them before just got them as dlc with the summer steam sale, and have not played them yet.) most people seem to say you need to go for OCC with them is this true or can I go with 4-8 citys with them? I play on King.
     
  8. ense7en

    ense7en n7

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2011
    Messages:
    995
    Location:
    Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
    Arabia 15
    Babylon 6
    China 13
    Inca 23
    Korea 26
    Maya 10
    Persia 12

    Babylon is a one trick pony.
    I actually really like Babs, beautiful color scheme, and lots of fun to get a strong science start. I believe that i've only played the Inca more than i have Babylon.
    But i'd like to vote for civs with a bit more of a balanced approach, ones that can be fun in many different ways.
    The walls and bowmen are pretty crap, which just leaves their awesome UA and free scientist on writing start.

    Persia isn't a perfect civ by any means. Golden ages are a lot harder to come by now.
    Immortals have a somewhat annoying place in the tech path, but if you can spam enough out for upgrades later it's nice.
    UB is nice.
    And even with them being harder to come by, longer golden ages + extra movement during is really nice.
     
  9. HelloGoodbye123

    HelloGoodbye123 Warlord

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2009
    Messages:
    284
    Location:
    U.S.A California
    I have never played babylon, but what people generally do is go straight for writing, and when they get the scientist they create the academy improvement. Giving them a really nice science boost. Science stacks up, so it would be good to play with 1 large city, but the secret of a OCC is to get hanging gardens. and this is not always a sure thing, so it can be risky. Also, if you can get the great library and the oracle among other wonders that provide +1 scientist specialist you can really start getting those scientists out. But again, wonders are not a sure thing. What happens if lets say an egyptian player beats you to great library and they use the free tech to get to the tech with oracle, your whole plan could come down. you still got the science boost. but just try to see who your enemies are and the enviroment you started with. since cutting forests are good to getting early wonders. or marble :p
     
  10. Uzumati

    Uzumati Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2012
    Messages:
    22
    Location:
    Nebraska
    Arabia 13
    Babylon 6
    China 13
    Inca 23
    Korea 26
    Maya 10
    Persia 13

    I liked the gold from Arabia, but felt that it seemed a little boring otherwise. So what I have 6 Wine's, I can only sell three. UA, UU doesn't feel as stellar as Persia.
    I get alot of gold out of Darius. Plus I feel like I'm walking in with a fighting chance. Immortals upgrade nice to Pikeman.
     
  11. cman2010

    cman2010 King

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2010
    Messages:
    740
    thanks for the quick response your tips are always appreciated.
     
  12. Monthar

    Monthar Emperor

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    Mar 28, 2004
    Messages:
    1,995
    Location:
    Elmendorf, Tx
    This is the same mistake everyone keeps making with Korea and why your experiment will always show Babylon as the winner. You aren't playing to the strengths of the other two civs and have even hindered them by choosing such a small map. Every four Mayan cities with the pyramid adds as much as a single academy. Every two Korean cities running just two specialists of any type adds as much as one academy.

    Gaining the +2 :c5science: per specialist doesn't have to be in the same city. Four Korean cities each running two scientists is as many beakers as four Babylon cities each running two scientists and having two academies, if both civs have equal population in the cities. Likewise four Korean academies are as good as 5 Babylon academies

    Sure Korea is good going tall, if you fill every specialist slot in the cities. However, it's just as good going wide with cities of only 5 pop each all running just 2 scientists in the university. Of course the wide approach also means they'll get more GS's in the long run, because the counter only resets to zero in the city that generates one. All the other cities are still building theirs at about the same rate.

    The other big mistake folks make with Korea is rushing the library, NC in the capital before expanding. Yes you delay that 50% boost to the capital's beaker generation, but you more than make up for it with the bigger slingshot when those buildings are completed. Think of it this way. Would you use your first or second GS to bulb in G&K as soon as you get it even if your BPT is low? No, of course you wouldn't. Well completing science buildings in the capital works exactly the same way. When completed you get a lump sum of the last 8 turns worth of beakers added to the tech you're currently researching and any overflow goes into the next tech you select or had in the queue.
     
  13. PhilBowles

    PhilBowles Deity

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2011
    Messages:
    5,020
    What versatility? If you're playing single player on a reasonably large map, and don't have a start with heavy resource clustering, and the civs you meet don't have your resources, once you get to Currency you can grab some gold in the early and mid-game before you reach a point where 240 gold per lux isn't helping much and you've run out of luxes other civs don't have anyway. Those quick lump-sum payments are themselves only particularly useful to rush a few things - Settlers, tech buildings, RAs - to use them effectively; grabbing 240 gold and spending 200 of it on a Warrior is not, after all, a particularly useful investment. Arabia is not an economic civ like Persia or Songhai that gives regular, additive gold - its strength lies entirely in getting enough gold in quick lump sums to rush certain key projects, which itself limits you to a somewhat restrictive strategy. Because in terms of its overall gold benefits, it's not that strong; Persia can reliably give you more in the 5 extra turns of each Golden Age than you'll get from a lux sale every 30 turns. Songhai provides big gold benefits when Arabia struggles to sell luxes in the late game, and gets early gold before Currrency, so it scales better overall than Arabia.

    Minor bonus compared with the Inca road discount, or Carthage's free harbour (i.e. 3-6 gpt discount per trade route).

    The Keshik is considered the best UU in the game because it's got faster movement. The whole point is that the UU can fire then move - so speed is more important than strength. The Camel Archer is certainly close in power to the Keshik, but where's Mongolia in this list? A civ doesn't rise this far just because of its UU (well, China and possibly Persia have, but China doesn't belong in this list either).

    Often inaccessible on Deity and sometimes on Immortal. Not only Arabia starts in deserts.

    Which Arabia (a) has no way of getting any earlier than anyone else until/unless it founds a pantheon, and (b) is favoured by a different tech path from the one Arabia wants. Desert Folklore is also very often one of the first pantheons taken by the AI.

    Limited in what way? It's the only Civ in the game which can effectively alter its UA to suit different strategies and victory conditions - for a tall strategy it can read "Siam gets +X food per turn", for strategies that rely on social policies "+X culture a turn", or any mix thereof (plus the faith option).

    You'd be amazed how much trickier it is to conquer offending city states (or ally them and declare war) than to simply click "No" for lux-for-gold trades. Arabia is the civ that is most crippled in multiplayer relative to its single-player performance.

    Compared with Camel Archers, sure. Compared with, say, Slingers or Babylonian Bowmen (to take civs that have survived this long)? Naruesan's Elephant is still a decent unit, it just doesn't really have a useful place because of changes to the tech tree and the strength of the Musketman.

    You seem to have a somewhat unique definition of "limited". Universities are always useful (and Siam benefits from jungle start bias), and culture is always useful.

    4 cities with one specialist building each will at best match Babylon's first academy. You can already tell going in that that's not a way to play Korea that's going to make gains on Babylon. More cities = more specialist buildings. Early focus on faith (you want Messenger of the Gods anyway, and likely Interfaith Dialogue) can net you early Cathedrals for free specialist buildings (and, quite incidentally, helping with happiness, and to a minor extent faith production for those interfaith missionaries) at about the same time you start putting out amphitheaters, markets and universities, and you want the culture to get to Rationalism ASAP - something Babylon will struggle to do, but is particularly useful for Korea who are using specialists anyway. You also have a better shot of completing both Rationalism and Freedom, getting the finisher that doubles the output of all those academies (and yes, the Korean science boost for GP improvements is doubled as well). Though really a cathedral, amphitheater and university per city is likely to be all you'll need (except in the capital where you want to maximise the amount of science that counts for NC). That's an academy's-worth of science per city as it is.

    There's this strangely neglected thing specialists do, which is produce resources - be it culture, science, gold or production. You don't have any need to produce Great People from them - if you're getting close to an Artist you don't want, just take the specialist out of the building. Chances are by that time you'll have another amphitheater/cathedral up in another city you can assign a citizen to to replace it, or you'll have teched to other specialist buildings you can reallocate specialists to. You almost always end up with more specialist buildings than you have specialists to assign to unless you play very tall, anyway.

    And in the meantime you've been getting culture (say) and +2 beakers every turn they're in the specialist building. Eventually you get to a point where you're producing GS points so quickly that you never get another GA anyway - if you have 4 specialists in research buildings and one in a culture building, the GP price goes up to a point the GA points can't reach before the next scientist spawns. Bad play is to stymie your science for all the turns you won't be popping a Great Artist no matter what out of fear of the occasional turn where you will spawn one if you aren't managing your specialists well enough.

    If you want BPT, you are way better off actually generating BPT. The very stuff that, when your scientists pop, will make them give you a bigger research boost than they would otherwise. And Korea puts out more BPT than Babylon.

    Neither, I'm just pointing out that the classical era was over long before any war decs - including the game where my closest neighbours were Askia, Montezuma and Suleiman.

    Or anyone on a duel map.
     
  14. theguy8882

    theguy8882 Warlord

    Joined:
    May 20, 2012
    Messages:
    201
    Arabia 13
    Babylon 7
    China 13
    Inca 23
    Korea 26
    Maya 10
    Persia 11

    I don't like the immortal and i only find the 50% bonus to golden ages useful

    Babylon I realize they will probably be the next to go, but i still think they are one of the best here.
     
  15. woodshadows

    woodshadows King

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2011
    Messages:
    717
    Location:
    Newfoundland
    Arabia 14
    Babylon 7
    China 11
    Inca 23
    Korea 26
    Maya 10
    Persia 11


    Arabia - camel archers are great
    China - too war-focused.
     
  16. SammyKhalifa

    SammyKhalifa Deity

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2003
    Messages:
    5,173
    indeed.

     
  17. Hammer Rabbi

    Hammer Rabbi Deity GOTM Staff

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    Jan 3, 2012
    Messages:
    4,460
    Location:
    USA
    the only reason for a vote is to vote for what you like or dislike. the argument isnt strongest or best or whatever. it was vote for what you like/dislike the most. im sure you are still sore over austria going out early but it wasnt for any reason other than people disliked them. some people vote up the strongest because they like them and some vote down the strongest because they are too strong. that's why this thread is interesting to me, the unpredictability of voter's reasons.
     
  18. drakar8888

    drakar8888 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2010
    Messages:
    30
    Arabia 14
    Babylon 8
    China 11
    Inca 23
    Korea 26
    Maya 8
    Persia 11

    Well, we are down to the last 7 civs and every single one of them is pretty powerful, it is still funny to see people trying to make arguments some of those civs are actually bad.

    -2 points for Maya - for the reason their UA comes with a very obvious and very relevant downside. /the whole great people aren't actually free/

    +1 point for Babylon - My opinion. They don't deserve to go this early. They are very close to a best overall civ in the game. For better or for worse Science>All in the game of CiV. Koreans just don't have the jump start on science Babylon has, it is that simple.

    Also Siam shouldn't have gone before Maya and China, I feel it was dogpiled by people that just wanted to upvote their favorites and just dump negative points somewhere.
     
  19. DGDobrev

    DGDobrev Warlord

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2010
    Messages:
    218
    Location:
    Essen, Germany
    @PhilBowles

    Something still escapes me in all that BPT thing. 1 planted GS = 4 specialists. The second planted GS comes quickly after Education (1 GS point from Oracle + 6 pts from University in the worst case, +50% from UA) - like 10 or so Turns, which makes 2 planted GS's worth 8 specialists. The Third one comes in the Renaissance, and that already equals 12 specialists of any kind. Babylon can also get the Messenger of the Gods pantheon, which also amounts to 8 BPT with 4 cities. In addition to that, I also like to time my 4th GS with Pisa, effectively gaining 2 GS very quickly, then one more from PT. This is 6 planted GS's upon completing the PT, or worth 24 specialists - less if Korea managed to plant a GS or two already. That means that around T140, Babylon can have 6 planted GS's, which I'd say is quite the tech advantage.

    Granted, Korea's strength lies in spawning many cities, but there is one very important thing, and that is happiness. If you don't have a happiness of at least 0, your Rationalism bonus is squarely gone. Unless you put your cities on Avoid Growth, they will eat your happiness very quickly. Thanks to the planted GS's, Babylon can manage the same will less, but taller cities, while keeping the happiness problem under control.

    I completely agree that in a game without RA's, Korea will manage to beat Babylon in the end, because in the late game, Korea will be producing much more BPT - like 200 to 400 more than Babylon. best I got in a game with Babylon was 1200 on T240, while Korea can have like 1500-1600 by that time. That is very meaningful in Multi, where few people will just make a RA with any of the likes of Babylon or Korea.

    As for duel maps... They are too cheesy, don't you think? :)

    In any case, time to vote:

    Arabia 14
    Babylon 9
    China 11
    Inca 23
    Korea 26
    Maya 8
    Persia 9

    Upvoting Babylon because I do not think they are that poor, and I do not think they deserve to go so early. When played strategically well, they can beat any of the remaining civs. Do a Bowman rush first while teching up (or just turtle and tech up if you play on Deity), get NC, get Education, forget about the upper part of the tech tree, go heavy on the military techs, and then go on a killing spree. Few nations can stop one who is so technologically advanced.

    Persia gets my downvote. Granted, having a string of long golden ages is great, but it works only until Emperor, or maybe Immortal if noone builds Chichen Itza, as this wonder is crucial for Persia. Persia also gets the best chance of a cultural victory thanks to their golden age duration - in the mid to late game on Emperor, I was picking a new policy every 6-7 turns or so with them, which is downright wicked. No other civ I played managed to beat them to that. Problem is, that cultural victory takes a long time to achieve, sadly... Any opponent would have launched into space by the time Persia gets to finish the Utopia project, and this means a lost game by default on any of the higher difficulties. I don't like this.
     
  20. GAGA Extrem

    GAGA Extrem Emperor

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2008
    Messages:
    1,568
    Gender:
    Male
    Arabia 12
    Babylon 9
    China 11
    Inca 24
    Korea 26
    Maya 8
    Persia 9

    Arabia: This CIV offers a set of economic benefits (inlcuding AI milking via bazaars) - that's it. Camel archers are neat, but as a whole better than the rest on the list? Nah.
    Inca: Versatile and suitable for every strategy.
     

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