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Civilization elimination thread

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by Bakspatel, Aug 23, 2012.

  1. woodshadows

    woodshadows King

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    Siam was nice before spies and on lower difficulty levels. No fun to throw 1000gold at a city state only to have it coup'd on you, I was once so determined to hold onto a citystate and had extra gold, so I invested gold into a city state 4 times in a row, only for each time the next turn Austria to coup them until I was out of gold. Also, a good Arabia player would have fun picking apart those slow elephants with the amazing camel archer ;)
     
  2. Dogmouth

    Dogmouth King

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    Exactly. If this was just about "the most powerful civ," then Austria should still be in the running. I want a civ that's fun and versatile. Having a commanding lead in tech because I'm following the same old strategy with a one trick pony is no fun.
     
  3. Gucumatz

    Gucumatz JS, secretly Rod Serling

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    Which is also why I prefer the more versatile civs here still to finish the top 3.

    Inca,
    Arabia,
    Maya

    I think Korea will sneak past one of those 3 though
     
  4. woodshadows

    woodshadows King

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    Is Babylon any good on multiplayer? I'd probably persistently be pillaging that academy if I played against them, sort of destroying Babylon's entire advantage without too much effort.
     
  5. Gucumatz

    Gucumatz JS, secretly Rod Serling

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    Babylon is still amazing on multi :p.
    And there is a simple solution to just pillaging it - have it close to your caps radius so your cap can fire vs any raiders and make it so that its a death wish to anyone who wants to raze it. And a unit stationed on top of your academy will do the trick. Besides with the tech advantage you can defend yourself pretty easily early on... and bowmen still do a good enough job to deal with comp bow rushes
     
  6. Dogmouth

    Dogmouth King

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    Not to mix threads, but perhaps this is another job for the underrated sipahi! :D
     
  7. Lord Kid

    Lord Kid Warlord

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    Incas are perfectly suited for going tall or wide. Free/cheap rail/roads allows you to expand horizontally to your hearts content, while Terrace Farms with their start bias makes those core cities food and production powerhouses. They are great for any map type, and hills can't be destroyed like other terrain.
    What I meant was, of the remaining civs in play, Babylon is my least favorite, so I was comparing their specialty to their closest competitor, Korea, in my analysis of why I downvoted them.
    Perhaps it's my play style, but whenever I've played Bab I never felt like I had much choice but to for the stars. I've taken Korea both tall and wide, and they felt right doing it. Beaker for beaker, Korea simply outproduces Babylon, at least in my experience. Getting BPT bonus for every specialist AND settled GP's more than makes up for Babylon's early GS. The Academy starts at +10 BPT, and goes up from there. Sure, Korea does require some more aggressive play at the start to catch Babylon, but once they do it's over. Babylon simply cannot keep up after that.
     
  8. blackcatatonic

    blackcatatonic Queen of Meme

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    Aw, man! I keep forgetting to post in this when my 24 hours expires and then when I do I find the Netherlands and Carthage are gone :(

    Arabia 15
    Babylon 11
    China 15
    Inca 29 (-2)
    Korea 26 (+1)
    Maya 13
    Persia 11

    The Inca I am downvoting for the same reasons I did whenever I last voted. I find the UU bordering on useless, and everything else is situational. I don't dislike them, I just don't get the mad love for them.

    Korea, on the other hand, are fantastic. Decent UUs (if a bit bizarre) and the UA is super powerful. Yes please.
     
  9. Hammer Rabbi

    Hammer Rabbi Deity GOTM Staff

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    i guess for some it's a 1-trick pony because its hard to NOT play to a civs strengths in the same way every time. i dont go for cultural vics with babylon, but every other vc is a lot of fun with them (well, diplo isnt fun with anyone, but that's another topic), and they all hinge on decent beakers. for me there is no "1-trick" other than beelining writing to settle the GS. after that it is up to you whether you turtle up and tech race or warmonger or spread out with 6-8 cities or whatever.

    also on deity, you dont get a "commanding tech lead" until the atomic/information age which is much more challenging and the UU/UBs are surprisingly necessary to weather the first 80-100 turns. but then again, deity is tough enough for any civ that versatility usually falls by the wayside to survival (unless you are really pro at the game, which i most certainly am not, haha).
     
  10. Monthar

    Monthar Emperor

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    Arabia 16
    Babylon 11
    China 13
    Inca 29
    Korea 26
    Maya 13
    Persia 11

    Arabia - Camel Archers are great.
    China - If you have to move before shooting the the CKN only gets to use one of it's shots, making it worse than a regular crossbow thanks to the reduced ranged strength.
     
  11. PhilBowles

    PhilBowles Deity

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    Must you? Why? Unless you particularly want GP generation, you can do as much - and typically earlier - with a wide empire with a lot of markets, amphitheaters or universities than you can playing tall and waiting to reach Museums and Research Labs. If the latter's your approach with Korea, it's no wonder they take so long to catch up to Babylon. It's not an obviously ideal Korean strategy.

    With any civ you can, in theory, "go tall or wide". But Babylon relies on GS production and, consequently, exactly the sort of tall play you claim Korea's dependent on (as well as hard-teching to Education, Scientific Method and Plastics), not to mention concentrating its academies to maximise the bonus of the National College, to do better than other civs in that department - wide Babylon will never compete with wide Maya for science, and will struggle to match wide Korea. If you want a civ that will give you a moderate to good science boost for playing the way you'd play anyway, Korea's the best option - Babylon is a poor fit.
     
  12. emblemfire

    emblemfire Chieftain

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    73
    Location:
    USA
    Arabia 16
    Babylon 12
    China 13
    Inca 27
    Korea 26
    Maya 13
    Persia 11

    Are you people crazy!? Inca is not the best civ!!! This is insane!
     
  13. Tabarnak

    Tabarnak R.I.P.

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    Québec
    Arabia 16
    Babylon 11
    China 14
    Inca 29
    Korea 24
    Maya 13
    Persia 11

    I largely prefer China over Korea because of CKNs and better gg rate(i like wars! :D)
     
  14. Rooftrellen

    Rooftrellen King

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    1. When you get both those techs (on the way to education), you'll get more culture, just like the Maya get more science. That being said, I'm not sure how often people take Drama and Poetry over Philosophy, as NC is going to be good, culture oriented or not.

    2. The Maya UA requires Theology to start working, but depending on what you want to do, you may wish to actually delay it, so you don't get the "free" GP. It is often the way to go, but they can work the bottom of the tech tree pretty well, too, not needing to research archery before getting aggressive.

    3. Messenger of the Gods is less effective for the Maya than for other civs that are made to go wide due to their ability to produce science anyway. I'd say it is THE pantheon for them, but they get less from it than Carthage, for instance. As for founding a religion faster than anyone else...

    4. They can get a quick GS with their UA, but it is just one of several choices (and generally the default if you don't see anything else better). However, it's perfectly possible to pop a GE to grab an early wonder, or...a GPr to get (or enhance) a religion, instead of going a more tech oriented route, and allowing you time to get a GP from normal means before raising their cost with the "free" ones.

    It all depends on your strategy, of course, but that really helps a civ. Most of the civs that are really pushed to one style of play dropped out quite early
     
  15. lb1785

    lb1785 Chieftain

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    Location:
    Toulouse, France
    Arabia 16
    Babylon 12
    China 12
    Inca 27
    Korea 24
    Maya 13
    Persia 12

    Correcting because tabarnak and emblemfire posted at the same time (I almost did too :) )

    Then China goes down because it's essentially a pure warmonger, and I don't feel like waging war in each game of civ I play...

    For Persia, I like the UA a lot, even though I'll admit it's tricky to time your wars with your golden ages... And the UB has a good synergy with the UA (extra happiness).
     
  16. cman2010

    cman2010 King

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    740
    Arabia 16
    Babylon 12
    China 12
    Inca 27
    Korea 25
    Maya 11
    Persia 12

    I love korea +2 science for every specialist rocks, Maya gets another downvote for me I dont like there UA.
     
  17. PhilBowles

    PhilBowles Deity

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    You no longer need to throw gold at CSes, and spies only make them easier to control if you select your targets effectively - there's nothing like gaining free influence every 15 turns. Plus the resting influence system really benefits Siam who, I'll stress again, only need to be friends (not allies) with a city-state to start farming UA benefits - and anyone can obtain 30 influence permanently with any CS they aren't at war with. Last time I faced a successful coup against one of my CSes (an Immortal game, as Sweden rather than Siam) was two turns before a diplo vote, and it was the only successful coup out of three launched that turn (plus several earlier efforts against my CSes).

    The trouble is, terrace farms don't scale well - they get mediocre bonuses in later eras compared with farms or mines, and you never get more than 2 hammers from them. Making them great for early growth and cheap early buildings, but bad for long-term development.

    Oh, I agree there. I played Babylon once, won, didn't go back to them - they're not an interesting civ by any means. As much as Mesix likes to praise Babylon's purported flexibility, his testimony also suggests he has limited experience playing civs other than Babylon to compare. And yes, I love playing Korea - the UUs genuinely feel unique (and which other civ can boast of having two UUs, both of which are very strong, on top of a very strong UA?), and while it's certainly best-suited for going for science victory, the UA is effectively free beakers for stuff you'll normally be doing anyway.

    Babylon's early advantage isn't the Academy - it's the Academy + National College, which is +12 bpt before anyone else will get it. This is a genuine edge this civ has over Korea or the Maya, who are forced to go wider to maximise their UA benefits (or in the case of Korea, delay their benefit by waiting to tech to tier 2/3 specialist buildings - which appears to be how Mesix has played them and why his experience is that they are slow to tech), and so will rarely get an early College. Then of course their GS bonus means more academies, which means more from the NC if the academies are placed around the capital. Korea will take the lead in science, but just as Mesix is comparing the two and finding Korea can't compete because he's using a suboptimal Korean strategy, it seems that you're not taking full advantage of what Babylon can do and finding them lacking as a result.

    I'll always favour Korea - as others have said, Babylon is about rushing to the finish line. This may well be essential on Deity (indeed probably is), but personally I prefer playing longer games, and with Korea I'll get a more interesting game out of it. Maybe people just want to rush Babylon because it's so boring to play they don't want to spend too much time on each game...?

    That's less a case of not playing to the civ's strengths in the same way, and more a case of ignoring its strengths altogether. The Writing academy is not Babylon's selling point and it won't keep them ahead of a fast-expanding Maya player or a Korean with amphitheaters and an early Cathedral belief. Babylon's strength is faster GS production, which means more academies. But to utilise it you have to play very specifically to maximise your GSes, and play tall to concentrate your academies where you can maximise their bonuses.

    I've yet to face an early rush in Deity - I can readily survive past the period when Bowmen and Walls are much use.
     
  18. Dogmouth

    Dogmouth King

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    Have you not played the Incas in G&K? Terraces now receive all of the bonuses applicable to farms. That wasn't the case in vanilla, but things have changed. In other words, terraces now scale.
     
  19. Gucumatz

    Gucumatz JS, secretly Rod Serling

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    Just as the above says ^

    Terrace Farms are one of the many things changed in GK. Terrace farms now get all the benefits a farm does tech wise with additional food.

    You can plant a terrace farm on any hill - couple that with the GK changes (where in fact they DO scale up over time) and you are producing super cities nearly everywhere. Add in a Petra or a few mountains and your cities become monster powerhouses in production and growth

    Inca can build farms basically on hills where no one else can - and you can choose to scale your growth - go tall with many terrace farms initially or wide with a couple and then later grow them out. Inca are easily the most versatile and probably the best civ left.

    Phil you should try them out again in GK! They also tend to have a desert/mountain bias too - so entirely possibly to go on a wider Petra mega city focus
     
  20. Hammer Rabbi

    Hammer Rabbi Deity GOTM Staff

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    ive played and won many bab games without maximizing the GS production. that's what im talking about. playing WITHOUT going to the strengths. my example was too isolated, so i get what you were suggesting. when you go warmongering you need to get happiness to keep it rolling and yes, your cap and another city might go tall but you cant afford to truly focus on the GS production without giving up hammer production, which is more crucial.

    and im not sure how you can avoid an early rush. ive never played a single standard deity game without being dow'd by t40-50 if not earlier. and it isnt a gameplay style either. its guaranteed when i go 4-city tradition starts but even with OCC or 2-city it always happens. it also happens when i have a little army and when i have a bigger one early. i would have to particularly set up large islands or small continents to delay that.
     

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