[NFP] Civilization VI: Possible New Civilizations Thread

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Personally I think this would have better suited Sumer (*glares at Firaxis*).

I don't know. The alternative is you don't expand and build up Babylon as the greatest city in the world. Sounds fitting.

 

[Zaarin]

I don't know. The alternative is you don't expand and build up Babylon as the greatest city in the world. Sounds fitting.

The way Civ6 works I have a hard time imagining a Venice-style civ would work. I'd imagine it working more like Civ5 Rome where your ancillary cities serve to enhance your capital, a kind of inverse Maya.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

The way Civ6 works I have a hard time imagining a Venice-style civ would work. I'd imagine it working more like Civ5 Rome where your ancillary cities serve to enhance your capital, a kind of inverse Maya.

I agree. That's why I would rather a playable Italy of different city-states.

Since the Maya did take the tall science approach though, I think that's a niche that Babylon could fill if they wanted to bring one back. Still I think that is why Assyria is more probable as a possible science/cultural and expansionist/builder that would suit the Civ 6 playstyle.

 

[AntSou]

I hope so since Rome is probably by far the most popular civ and my favourite civ.

Evidence? It stands to reason that Rome is pretty popular, but a statement like probably by far the most popular civ requires something to base it upon.

Not trying to be picky, but seeing how we only have one alt leader left, there's a big difference between being Top 2 most popular vs Top 3.

It's also the second time in this thread that you're casually inserting subjective opinion as objective reality.

As I asked someone else who plays the skeptic, provide your very unconventional, well-learned and novel view of history that leads you to disagree so vehemently with the mainstream of society.

I don't know what you're talking about. Historians rarely use terms like most important in the way you did because it's nonsensical. That's what I'm arguing with. Rome's importance in World's History is undeniable though. It seems you're missing the point.
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When I make the statement Rome's importance in Human History is undeniable all I need to do is give a list of historical evidence and justify how it has affected/shaped subsequent societies and cultures.

But if I say Rome was the most important Civilisation in History I have now left the field of History and Anthropology and am going down the rabbit hole of Philosophy, Morality and other unsavoury cr*p.


Here's an example: Can you explain to me in what way is the practice of writing laws into codes more important than that which draws from precedent and custom? That's the kind of stuff you're getting yourself into here. Does the question even make sense to you?

 

[The Kingmaker]

I’m just hoping for a Babylon that’s implemented better than the Civ5 version. I liked Nebuchadnezzar just fine, but “Walls of Babylon?” Really?

 

[Thenewwwguy]

Evidence? It stands to reason that Rome is pretty popular, but a statement like probably by far the most popular civ requires something to base it upon.

Not trying to be picky, but seeing how we only have one alt leader left, there's a big difference between being Top 2 most popular vs Top 3.

It's also the second time in this thread that you're casually inserting subjective opinion as objective reality.



I don't know what you're talking about. Historians rarely use terms like most important in the way you did because it's nonsensical. That's what I'm arguing with. Rome's importance in World's History is undeniable though. It seems you're missing the point.
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When I make the statement Rome's importance in Human History is undeniable all I need to do is give a list of historical evidence and justify how it has affected/shaped subsequent societies and cultures.

But if I say Rome was the most important Civilisation in History I have now left the field of History and Anthropology and am going down the rabbit hole of Philosophy, Morality and other unsavoury cr*p.


Here's an example: Can you explain to me in what way is the practice of writing laws into codes more important than that which draws from precedent and custom? That's the kind of stuff you're getting yourself into here. Does the question even make sense to you?

I agree. History doesn’t deal in absolutes. You can never make a statement like ‘most powerful’ or ‘most important’ because of the breadth of history. Rome was relatively important, but I wouldn’t say most important bcs there’s no objective way of saying which nation state was the most important or powerful

 

[WillowBrook]

Other than four of his six wives, he didn't kill anymore than most monarchs of his day by any measure

My apologies for a belated nitpicky correction, but he had two, not four, of his wives executed. He divorced two others, one died soon after childbirth, and one survived him.

Evidence? It stands to reason that Rome is pretty popular, but a statement like probably by far the most popular civ requires something to base1 it upon.

According to Steam achievements, more owners of civ have won as Trajan than any other leader. But the numbers are not overwhelming: 11.1% as Trajan, 10.0% as Frederick, and 9.2% as Qin Shi Huang are the top three.

 

[Thenewwwguy]

Not that I don't like post-colonial nations, but I think we've hit the max with Gran Colombia finally having a Spanish speaking one.

And I'd rather not any from Africa as it's much easier making pre-colonial Civs from the various kingdoms and empires.
The best option would be Nigeria, but then again I'd pick Benin (the pre-colonial kingdom located in present-day Nigeria) over them as well.


I wouldn't be surprised if Babylon could end up being the playable city-state, but instead of buying you have to conquer.

Not just Benin, but Ashanti, Kilwa/Zanzibar and Zimbabwe are precolonial civs I’d like to see

in Civ 7, you can have precolonial Angola over Kongo if you want to feature Anna Nzinga, who is a really interesting historical figure, even in comparison to Afonso/Mvemba a Nzinga.

Angola was a client kingdom of Kongo which by the time of Anna’s lifetime wasn’t under the influence of Kongo as much, so they would occupy a similar historical niche as well.

 

[AntSou]

I agree. History doesn’t deal in absolutes. You can never make a statement like ‘most powerful’ or ‘most important’ because of the breadth of history. Rome was relatively important, but I wouldn’t say most important bcs there’s no objective way of saying which nation state was the most important or powerful

To an extent, yes. But you could say something like "the US is the most powerful nation-state in the Post-War era" and that would be fine. It's implied one is evaluating the hard and soft power capabilities of the US in the post-war era, and these things can be verified and subsequently argued against or in favour. Different perspectives can also be brought up, especially if the Social Sciences start butting in (and God do they love to tell you all about their bloody theories...)

But besides that, the problem with The_Civs_6's statement is that the language used makes the statement impossible to be refuted.

Another example: If I make the statement Portugal was the most significant Naval Power in East Africa between 1500-1550, it gives you a lot to work with. I can expand on my point by pointing out how disruptive the Portuguese enterprise in East Africa was to the established regional powers of the time, for instance, which makes it clear what I mean by "most significant".

But more important than that, if the statement above is false along with my explanation, you can point out exactly what it is about it that is false. I have evidence here which contradicts your claims. It's falsifiable.

A statement like "most important Civilization in History" can't be falsified. You might as well claim ducks have the most important feet.

According to Steam achievements, more owners of civ have won as Trajan than any other leader. But the numbers are not overwhelming: 11.1% as Trajan, 10.0% as Frederick, and 9.2% as Qin Shi Huang are the top three.

That's pretty cool, though I'm surprised to see Frederick so high.

@WillowBrook

How do you see that? I'm interested about the other leaders.

 

[PhilBowles]

First of all, there is a reasonable argument that Mongolia - over China and Rome - is the most important civilization in history. Using your loose definitions of continuity you could trace a line from Hun to Mongols.

Why would that make them the most important (and it would be a very loose defintion)?

Personally I don't see any real contender with Rome for the title (granting, of course, that it's a useful appellation - others have rightly pointed out that it's pretty nebulous, but I'm treating it as meaning 'most influential'). Christianity has been the most important single factor in the history of Europe over the past two millennia, and a huge part of the European powers' colonial enterprise that impacted the entirety of the rest of the world. Today it's more significant in the Americas and Africa than it is in Europe, but it remains important even there. Rome was both indirectly responsible for the founding of Christianity in the first place, and directly responsible for spreading it and ensuring that it wasn't just another short-lived Jewish sect.

And while that's the great lasting reason for Rome's global significance, its regional importance to the societies that followed it - and its own accomplishments militarily, in civic administration, and in spreading Greek-derived culture that formed the basis of later European civilisation - cannot be neglected.

That Rome was not the originator of most of these achievements is no argument against it - we look back on them and see them as major developments only because the Romans existed to ensure their survival.

 

[Jeppetto]

How do you see that? I'm interested about the other leaders.

When you hover over achievement in Steam it tells you the percentage

 

[Patine]

Not just Benin, but Ashanti, Kilwa/Zanzibar and Zimbabwe are precolonial civs I’d like to see

in Civ 7, you can have precolonial Angola over Kongo if you want to feature Anna Nzinga, who is a really interesting historical figure, even in comparison to Afonso/Mvemba a Nzinga.

Angola was a client kingdom of Kongo which by the time of Anna’s lifetime wasn’t under the influence of Kongo as much, so they would occupy a similar historical niche as well.

I would also like see the Ganda and their Kabaka, myself, as well.

 

[AntSou]

When you hover over achievement in Steam it tells you the percentage

Oh, I thought he might have some hidden secret site with all the achievements neatly arranged.

 

[Zaarin]

Christianity has been the most important single factor in the history of Europe over the past two millennia, and a huge part of the European powers' colonial enterprise that impacted the entirety of the rest of the world. Today it's more significant in the Americas and Africa than it is in Europe, but it remains important even there. Rome was both indirectly responsible for the founding of Christianity in the first place, and directly responsible for spreading it and ensuring that it wasn't just another short-lived Jewish sect.

Spreading it, yes, founding it, no. Christianity is an Eastern religion in origin, and it still has Eastern forms in the Oriental Orthodox Churches and the Assyrian Church of the East (and to a lesser extent Eastern Orthodoxy, Eastern Catholicism, and Evangelical Orthodox churches). Some forms of Protestantism and Messianic Judaism have consciously endeavored to reconnect to those Eastern roots. Now, was Rome responsible for spreading Christianity across the Mediterranean and Europe and turning it into something very different from its origins? Yes, that much is true.

 

[Abaxial]

One advantage of Orange Free State is that you have no problem about duplicate city names: Pretoria, Durban, Pietermaritzburg, Bloemfontein, etc - none of these have been used by any other civ. Whereas you see how, with the Maya, they are still having to slide into Spanish names.

Leader: Marthinus Pretorius - Boer tactics: military units are invisible to non-adjacent units
UU: the trekker - replaces the settler; cheaper to build and ignores terrain costs
UI: Voortrekker monument - replaces the monument; cheaper to build and +2 culture

There - writes itself, really.

 

[Zaarin]

Whereas you see how, with the Maya, they are still having to slide into Spanish names.

They could have done better, but there are cases where Mayan names aren't known. Personally I would have left those cities out, but some of them are fairly important.

 

[CivLuvah]

Now, was Rome responsible for spreading Christianity across the Mediterranean and Europe...? Yes, that much is true.

Not exactly. Christianity was spread throughout the empire prior to its legalization in 313 in spite of official persecution by Rome itself. There is evidence that Christians had a presence in Roman Britain and Gaul prior to the 4th century.

 

[Abaxial]

They could have done better, but there are cases where Mayan names aren't known. .

Of course. That's the problem with running extinct civilisations.

 

[Zaarin]

Not exactly. Christianity was spread throughout the empire prior to its legalization in 313 in spite of official persecution by Rome itself. There is evidence that Christians had a presence in Roman Britain and Gaul prior to the 4th century.

That's what I meant. Persecution spread it far more than sanction did.

 

[AntSou]

So I expanded on that list and this is what we have:

Rome - 11.1%
Germany - 10.0%
China - 9.2%
America - 8.9%
Japan - 7.5%
Russia - 7.5%
Sumer - 6.9%
Egypt - 6.8%
England - 6.6%
France - 6.2%

Obviously this doesn't tell us about sales in specific markets but it's a fair indication of popularity of the Civs in game. No one will be surprised to see Germany, China, America, Japan, Russia, England and France in the top 10. The only thing I find surprising here is how high Frederick is and to see Sumer on the list. Greece isn't in the top 10 due to having two leaders. Together, Gorgo and Pericles account for 10.5%, putting Greece behind only Rome.

England and France are harder to compare due to Eleanor being dual and having come in an expansion. In any case, Eleanor accounts for only 2.9%. I'll guess about 8 - 8.5% for England and 7.5% for France.

It's fishy that they would prioritise a third alt for France before Rome, Egypt, China and Germany.
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Sidenote: I found out the achievement for winning with Amanitore is called "GG NUB". Is there a meme I'm unaware of?