[NFP] Civilization VI: Possible New Civilizations Thread

[Thenewwwguy]

I would skip Florence and go with Dandolo and di Campofregoso. If we are still sticking to leaders as representing "empires" or "leagues," then the Venetian and Genoese empires should take priority over Florence.

Also, we have enough Medicis in the game.

if ppl want florence, the move is Mathilda of Tuscany.

Imo, I liked the Kingdom of Sardinia idea or a Tuscany civ.

Preferably though, I’d like to explore underrepresented regions, and for me, that’s Ireland, which is probably the only european civ I really want to see (Sukritact’s Vercingetorix mod is perfect, so i don’t care if we get the gauls or no)

I also agree with @Grand-Admiral Thrawn. A Civ’s legacy and regional and international relevance comes first. That’s what makes a civ a civ. More than anything, they had to have a legacy as an independent state with a lasting legacy. Acre or Rio Grande de whatever didn’t do that. A ‘black american civ’ wouldn’t do that.

Contrary to what you’re saying, @Henri Christophe, this civ game does a really good job of cultural and ethnic variety.

And I can’t take you seriously at all when so much of what you say is straight up racist, incorrect or all-around problematic.

You’ve made statements that contribute to the erasure of indigenous people, mixed race people, and generally just fetishized them by saying that ‘they’re cool, i love them, let’s give them a civ’

This is Civilization, not Race War: the 4X game.

The point of Civ isn’t to have each race as a civ, it’s to highlight important and influential nations that changed the course of history.

So please. Just go, and think about what you’re saying before you post here. It’s really frustrating to try to discuss what we might see in the New Frontier pack when you derail these conversations every hour with a different problematic statement

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I just want to throw out the idea for a Bottega (workshop replacement) as a possibility for an Italy unique infrastructure. It can grant culture as well as Great Writer, Artist, Musician, and Scientist points in addition to a regular workshop abilities. They could also go the easy route with an Opera House to gather more great musicians faster and house Great works of music earlier than the modern era.

Can you do a serious proposal of Texas? Who can be a Texans leader you can be proud of?

There's only a few. Sam Houston who was the first president and general during the Texas Revolution. He defeated Santa Ana at the Battle of San Jacinto and won Texas it's independence. There's also Mirabeau Lamar "The Father of Education" who laid down plans to build universities. They've been in mods before and I think they will continue to stay there.
I don't think the game needs another independent state that lasted about 10 years and broke away from a Spanish speaking nation, right now.

I like Ezana because she is woman, Gender equality is also in my equality agenda.

As stated above, Ezana is not a woman. He was the first king of Axum in Ethiopia to convert to Christianity and turned Ethiopia into a religious state.

No, they weren't. Civ5's Celts was one of the worst civ designs in the franchise's history. It was appallingly, offensively bad.

Was it even more so than the Native American's from Civ 4?

 

[Henri Christophe]

Ezana is a dude

no one seriously wants texas

Ops sorry, I was thinking in Gudit.

haha it's a shame for me! I donwload the Kebra Nagast book in 2017 and still today don't read it XD

So, just to full fill my Equalaity Agenda in Gender Equality I will share this video about she.

I also don't know that much about her.

Rio grande do sul is way too minor of a ‘civ’ to have representation before any other civ that was independent for more than a year

Farrapo's revolution was from 1835-1845. 10 years of the Republica Riograndense!

you’re talking about me being in the racist narrative. I liked Obama. Sadly, half of my compatriots didn’t, and he would be too divisive. I would like a haiti with Toussaint L’Oveurture

I would love Obama as alternative leader to USA, but someone told me it is impossible to do Civs if the Leader don't die.

you talk about a ‘black Americans’ civ. This doesn’t seem like the way to go. We shouldn’t make up civs that never existed. Instead, use civs that actually existed which had black leaders

In that way, will still Black just in Africa.
If CIV 6 have new white Civ with White leaders as Australia and Canada.
Why don't have new NO-African Civs with Black Leaders as Palmares?

I don’t think anybody is actually thinking a Texas civ would make it into the game

I guess I misunderstood, sorry

 

[Zaarin]

Was it even more so than the Native American's from Civ 4?

No, that was definitely Civ's lowest point. But Civ5 Celts was down there with them, and Civ4's and Civ3's Celts weren't great.

 

[Henri Christophe]

I also agree with @Grand-Admiral Thrawn. A Civ’s legacy and regional and international relevance comes first. That’s what makes a civ a civ. More than anything, they had to have a legacy as an independent state with a lasting legacy. Acre or Rio Grande de whatever didn’t do that. A ‘black american civ’ wouldn’t do that.

Where is the Scythia legacy? Rio Grande do Sul flag still the revolutionary flag and have write in it "República Riograndese".
And they still calling they self Gauchos!

Contrary to what you’re saying, @Henri Christophe, this civ game does a really good job of cultural and ethnic variety.

I don't think so, using this german undersding of races

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasian_race

I draw this graph>

To show very clear how un-balanced this is.

Before start to play CIV 6 I also made a graph about CIV 5 and Land distribution.

And also I guess CIV 6 isn't better than CIV 5 in representation. Far east and Americas just grew in White diversity, but still the same number of Native Civs.

 

[Jewelrunna]

If Italy is to be taken into consideration, and is presumably to receive two leaders a la Greece, which two leaders should they be? Or which two city-states should be represented?

As major as the Papacy was, I’d rule them out. Too much possible religious controversy + the most direct overlap with Rome (same capital). Let it stay a city-state.

I think Lorenzo de’ Medici and Florence are the strongest contenders for spot #1.

As for spot #2, there’s Caterina Sforza and Milan. Or Enrico Dandolo and Venice again. Genoa? Naples? Turin? Maybe Cesare or Lucrezia Borgia?

If you're going two leaders for Italy, I'd say one Italian Renaissance leader and one Italian Unification leader.

Say, Lorenzo di Medici/Caterina Sforza/Enrico Dandolo for Renaissance, Victor Emmanuel II/Cavour/Garibaldi for Reunification.

 

[Grand-Admiral Thrawn]

I would love Obama as alternative leader to USA, but someone told me it is impossible to do Civs if the Leader don't die.

It’s not that you can’t have a leader who’s still alive, but most living politicians have lots of people who hated them, and they all did some questionable things (see: drone strikes)

In that way, will still Black just in Africa.
If CIV 6 have new white Civ with White leaders as Australia and Canada.
Why don't have new NO-African Civs with Black Leaders as Palmares?

Literally the next sentence I advocate for Toussaint L’Ouverture and Haïti. Australia and Canada made it in because of their sizable player bases. The reason why none of the American civs are black is that there haven't been many black nations in America.

 

[Guynemer]

I'll be very disappointed if Rock-hewn Churches are a building. They should either be a UD or a UI in my opinion; I don't want to have to squint at my screen to see them.

How about this for a UI: Must be built on hills. +1 faith. +2 additional faith for each adjacent stone; +1 additional faith from adjacent Holy Site and each building in the HS district. Additional culture as you progress through the civics tree. After researching flight, generates tourism equivalent to faith output. Can not be build adjacent to another RHC.

 

[Thenewwwguy]

No, that was definitely Civ's lowest point. But Civ5 Celts was down there with them, and Civ4's and Civ3's Celts weren't great.

Civ 2-4 Vikings, Civ 5 Polynesia

Where is the Scythia legacy? Rio Grande do Sul flag still the revolutionary flag and have write in it "República Riograndese".
And they still calling they self Gauchos!


I don't think so, using this german undersding of races

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasian_race

I draw this graph>

To show very clear how un-balanced this is.

Before start to play CIV 6 I also made a graph about CIV 5 and Land distribution.

And also I guess CIV 6 isn't better than CIV 5 in representation. Far east and Americas just grew in White diversity, but still the same number of Native Civs.

you’re using a understanding of race that people stopped using in the 1950s because it was incredibly racist. Just stop obsessing over it. Not just here, but on this whole website. (also, I’ll note that Gilgamesh, Saladin and Dido are semitic, not caucasian/Indo-European, and that Native Americans are not ‘mongoloid’ (which is again, an outdated and racist term)

And a barely relevant separatist movement’s flag being used by barely relevant separatists is not legacy.

Also, the Scythians have a legacy. Tomyris is semi-deified, the stuff of myths and legends, well-known and considered a hero by many in the countries she came from for killing Cyrus.

 

[Zaarin]

It’s not that you can’t have a leader who’s still alive

But you'd have to pay the person royalties and have their permission for the use of their likeness. Firaxis isn't going to do that.

Civ 5 Polynesia

As far as blobs go, it was pretty bad, but as far as design goes they've done worse. Maori is practically the same civ with a new name.

 

[Thenewwwguy]

But you'd have to pay the person royalties and have their permission for the use of their likeness. Firaxis isn't going to do that.

The bad things that more recent leaders have done are much more remembered as well: criticisms of obama, both justified and unjustified, still exist and are remembered really well. Basically anyone playing the game in Latin America or the Middle East wouldn’t be happy with his existence in the game given his history of mass deportations and numerous drone strikes.

Hell, people still don’t want FDR in the game for Japanese Internment

the more recent a leader, the more uncontroversial OR obscure they have to be to avoid criticisms

 

[Zaarin]

The bad things that more recent leaders have done are much more remembered as well: criticisms of obama, both justified and unjustified, still exist and are remembered really well. Basically anyone playing the game in Latin America or the Middle East wouldn’t be happy with his existence in the game given his history of mass deportations and numerous drone strikes.

Hell, people still don’t want FDR in the game for Japanese Internment

the more recent a leader, the more uncontroversial OR obscure they have to be to avoid criticisms

For sure. I was just pointing out that there are legal issues in representing recent leaders in addition to the controversy/PR issues.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

Respectfully disagree. Florence is the cornerstone of the famous Italian Renaissance. Powerhouse cultural and economic civ.

Political powerhouse, yes. But not really much of an "empire." Yes there was the Italic League, and maybe if we didn't have Catherine I would say just give us Cosimo as the sole Italian leader.

if ppl want florence, the move is Mathilda of Tuscany.

Imo, I liked the Kingdom of Sardinia idea or a Tuscany civ.

Yes I would much prefer Mathilda I think, although still she never controlled Genoese, Venetian, or Napoleon territories. Might make a good capital though for an Italy comprising several city states. She starts with Florence but can found Venice, Milan, Genoa, etc. and puppeteer them.

I just want to throw out the idea for a Bottega (workshop replacement) as a possibility for an Italy unique infrastructure. It can grant culture as well as Great Writer, Artist, Musician, and Scientist points in addition to a regular workshop abilities. They could also go the easy route with an Opera House to gather more great musicians faster and house Great works of music earlier than the modern era.

With a Pinocchio UU.

An Opera House or Palazzo would be very good for a cultural Italy design. Also museums.

 

[Thenewwwguy]

Political powerhouse, yes. But not really much of an "empire." Yes there was the Italic League, and maybe if we didn't have Catherine I would say just give us Cosimo as the sole Italian leader.



Yes I would much prefer Mathilda I think, although still she never controlled Genoese, Venetian, or Napoleon territories. Might make a good capital though for an Italy comprising several city states. She starts with Florence but can found Venice, Milan, Genoa, etc. and puppeteer them.



With a Pinocchio UU.

An Opera House or Palazzo would be very good for a cultural Italy design. Also museums.

duomo italy ui: religious building in city center

i’d still prefer a pallazo unique city center but this is my second choice.

And that’s only if we have to have italy over ireland

 

[Kupe Navigator]

Where is the Scythia legacy? Rio Grande do Sul flag still the revolutionary flag and have write in it "República Riograndese".
And they still calling they self Gauchos!


I don't think so, using this german undersding of races

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasian_race

I draw this graph>

To show very clear how un-balanced this is.

Before start to play CIV 6 I also made a graph about CIV 5 and Land distribution.

And also I guess CIV 6 isn't better than CIV 5 in representation. Far east and Americas just grew in White diversity, but still the same number of Native Civs.

Civ's main concern isn't race but well civilization or nations. Civilization =/=race. I don't mind having multiple races if they are from different backgrounds. I didn't mind Canada or Australia as they are two complete different nations with different backgrounds. I would rather have more Asian nations than "black nations" anyway.

 

[Kupe Navigator]

Where is the Scythia legacy? Rio Grande do Sul flag still the revolutionary flag and have write in it "República Riograndese".
And they still calling they self Gauchos!


I don't think so, using this german undersding of races

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasian_race

I draw this graph>

To show very clear how un-balanced this is.

Before start to play CIV 6 I also made a graph about CIV 5 and Land distribution.

And also I guess CIV 6 isn't better than CIV 5 in representation. Far east and Americas just grew in White diversity, but still the same number of Native Civs.

Also you put Asian in same place as maori. As New Zealander I can say we don't see ourselves as same race

 

[Henri Christophe]

Literally the next sentence I advocate for Toussaint L’Ouverture and Haïti. Australia and Canada made it in because of their sizable player bases. The reason why none of the American civs are black is that there haven't been many black nations in America.

There ir more Black nations in Americas than White nations.
Who is White in America? Canada, USA, Uruguay and Argentina? You want to put Chile in it? Okay, let's do it.
NOW, how many Black Nations in Americas?
Most Black-
Bahamas, Jamaica, Haiti, Antígua e Barbuda, Guadalupe, Dominica, Martinica, Santa Lúcia, São Vicente e Granadinas, Granada, Trinidad e Tobago, Barbados, Belize, Suriname, Guyana and French-Guyana.
Black around (40%-60%)
Cuba, República DOminicana, Porto Rico, Brazil, Honduras, Nicarágua.
Black minority.
USA, México, Canadá, Colômbia, Equador, Peru, Panamá, Costa Rica, El Salvador

 

[TeddyMain]

Going off the main discussion, what's your guy's opinion on Finland as a civ?

If they were included, I could see either Mannerheim or Urho Kekkonen leading the nation.

 

[Henri Christophe]

you’re using a understanding of race that people stopped using in the 1950s because it was incredibly racist. Just stop obsessing over it. Not just here, but on this whole website. (also, I’ll note that Gilgamesh, Saladin and Dido are semitic, not caucasian/Indo-European, and that Native Americans are not ‘mongoloid’ (which is again, an outdated and racist term)

I not said I agree with that racial way to see the world, I agree it was very racist.
BUT, it's astonished how the distribution of leaders of this game fit very well a racist-germanic way to understand the world in early-modern-age.

And about Semitic-Caucasian, they are kind of togethers...
Inside other caucasians start with Helenic caucasians, other europeans caucasians, some semitic-I don't know-caucasian and in the botton Aryans-Caucasians.

Sugestion I made as Negro Abraham and Akbar leading Mongol Empire will make this graph-no sense.

 

[Thenewwwguy]

There ir more Black nations in Americas than White nations.
Who is White in America? Canada, USA, Uruguay and Argentina? You want to put Chile in it? Okay, let's do it.
NOW, how many Black Nations in Americas?
Most Black-
Bahamas, Jamaica, Haiti, Antígua e Barbuda, Guadalupe, Dominica, Martinica, Santa Lúcia, São Vicente e Granadinas, Granada, Trinidad e Tobago, Barbados, Belize, Suriname, Guyana and French-Guyana.
Black around (40%-60%)
Cuba, República DOminicana, Porto Rico, Brazil, Honduras, Nicarágua.
Black minority.
USA, México, Canadá, Colômbia, Equador, Peru, Panamá, Costa Rica, El Salvador

No country defines itself as a ‘black country’ or a ‘white country’

civ is concerned with finding the most interesting, relevant and powerful nations, period.

It doesn’t matter who that nation is, as long as there’s general cultural and geographical balance it doesn’t matter.

It doesn’t matter if they’re black, white, asian, latinx, middle eastern, pacific islander, native american.

race constructs itself differently in different cultures too—latinx people, for example, are generally a mix of indigenous, white, and black. So to say Argentina is a ‘white’ country means you’re reducing all of their cultural and historical relevance and interest down to the color of their skin.

That is horribly prejudiced.