[NFP] Civilization VI: Possible New Civilizations Thread

[Wielki Hegemon]

I am still hoping we get Bulgaria for a science civ (if Korea can be scientific, so can Bulgaria); I suspect if Byzantium is its own civ it would also have a scientific bent. Denmark could also do okay as a science civ although I think we were anticipating an observatory unique if they went that direction, and the Maya have shut that down.

Why you consider Bulgaria as a possible science Civ? Sorry but I dont buy an argument if Korea can be science Civ anyone can. It would mean that cultular backround in irrelevant.

 

[Republic of San Montuoso]

This would be a mechanical disaster given how bad Wilhemina and Robert's abilities are. Nobody in their right minds would choose them again. At least Eleanor and Chandragupta's presences didn't discredit Victoria, CdM and Gandhi's abilities.

I think the best thing that could happen would be to have alt personalities for Robert Bruce and Wilhelmina. This way, you have kind of an alternate leader without having one. Maybe what they did with Teddy and CdM is a way to see if it's a viable option for FFP.
Or just enhance their LUA. It's not that hard. Everybody is complaining about them since R&F so just a tweak here and there shouldn't be that horrible. I'd love to enjoy Wilhelmina ability and not just consider it something that's here but don't care.

My main gripe with Europe’s representation is that it feels very underrepresented in terms of science civilizations. Yes, the UK, France, and Spain along with many other colonial powers did a lot of expansion and conquest, but they were also great at bringing out scientific breakthroughs, much more so in the cases of the UK and France. I understand wanting to take a civ’s playstyle in a certain direction (IE France and culture), but the lack of acknowledgement of many Euro civ’s scientific backgrounds feels off kilter.

Scotland and Sweden fill that niche. Also, even if a lot of scientific discoveries were made in Europe, I don't feel like any country has the "sciencey" vibe to completely turn them around it, except maybe, yes, Sweden and Scotland. I mean, England, France and Germany all had great scientists, but don't you think making their CUA or LUA around science would completely eclipse some more prominent achievments?

My main wish is that Greece would get some science bonuses.

I would argue that Greeks were not true scientifics. They were incredible philosophers, that's true, but in terms of science? All the great scientific/engineers were outside of Greece per se. Euclide did mainly his work in Egypt, as well as Thales; Archimedes was in Syracuse. Pythagoras was completely a mystic and he did mathematical discoveries only by luck. But they were mainly philosophers, but Philosophy is represented by culture in Civ VI (look at Political Philosophy, Drama and Poetry... things typically greeks). Making Greeks a scientific civ would miss the point IMO because they were more known for philosophy, being culture.

 

[Lord Lakely]

I am still hoping we get Bulgaria for a science civ (if Korea can be scientific, so can Bulgaria);

Not quite?

Korea's been scientific twice, but both times the leader was also a person who pushed for research and scientific development: Seondeok with her Cheomseongdae , Sejong wth the Jade Halls and the Hangul Alphabet. The basis for a scientific Korea was there, both times.

Bulgaria however? Makes no bloody sense as a scientific civ.

Firstly, Bulgaria lacks a good scientific leader. The Bolgar leaders were a bare step above steppe nomads. Of the tzars, Boris I and Simeon the Great had the council of Preslav, but this council was more of religious and cultural institution. The Glagotic and Cyrillic alphabets were designed with the purpose to spread religious texts and messages - not previously lost and recently recovered Hellenistic knowledge.

Secondly, you may be tempted to think otherwise because of the Macedonian Renaissance, as the territory currently belonging to the Republic of North Macedonia (whose culture and language is strongly linked to Bulgaria's), but the scholars of the Macedonian renaissance hailed from Macedon, which was part of the Byzantine empire. Contemporary Macedonia and ancient Macedon aren't the same entity, as the Greeks will fiercely remind you each time you mix the two up. The Macedonian Renaissance makes sense as a Byzantine ability, who could be scientific, but not a Bulgarian one.

Thirdly, tying in with the first point, look at the legacy of the First Bulgarian Empire. The achievements of Boris I and Simeon the Great (which also coincided with a period of Byzantine weakness, hence why the Bulgarian empire became the most powerful Kingdom in eastern Europe for about a century - they simply filled the power vacuum) were largely cultural and religous - Eastern Orthodoxy spread around the slavic world like wildfire, especially the Balkans. Cultural traditions such a the Cyrillic alphabet and polyphonic singing were introduced, and are still practised to this day. Many of the monasteries and castles build during these periods have since become tourist attractions. Nationalistic sentiment is embedded into the population from a young age, and everyone is well-read upon the cultural traditions and history of their nation. Domestic tourism is massive in Bulgaria and keeps the economy somewhat afloat, in spite of the dwindling population.

The point I'm trying to make here is that science makes no sense for Bulgaria, not moreso than it does for the Cree or the Zulu. Other than the cyrillic alphabet, Bulgaria's scientific achievements are insignificant. Their culture however? Rich, deep, layered and relevant to the present day. They make a perfect case for a warmongering civ with a strong cultural (or religious, or both) bonus.

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As far a scientific civs go, I think it depends on the timeline, does it not? Scientific advancement isn't a constant thing - China was highly advanced during the classical and medieval eras, but by the Industrial era were utterly backwards compared to their contemporaries. Japan was scientifically weak until the industrial era and now are amongst the most well-educated and creative nations in the world. Most nations can take the scientific role - but only a few (Greece, Rome/Byzantium, Assyria/Babylon, Persia) have fit the bill consistently enough to really warrant a scientific CUA. For the rest, it really depends on the chosen leader and which time period he or she thrust the entire nation in.

 

[Republic of San Montuoso]

I don't really know for a scientific CUA, but if we want a Leader with a scientific focus and something that could go against the odds, we could have the Timurids led by Ulugh Beg. He was a rightful Prince and Sultan of the Timurid Dynasty, and he was known as the Prince-Astronomer, with the construction of the observatory of Samarkand and the creation of the Sultanic Tables. Plus, having a scientific leader who really was a scientist (and not only a leader that did patronage towards scientists, like Saladin or Seondeok who never were scientists on their own) would really be a great addition to the game. And since a lot of people are asking for the Timurids, Ulugh Beg could fill the niche of the dark horse of the NFP.

 

[Abaxial]

Isn't it a bit premature to start talking about leaders for Civ VII? With all the palaver working up civs and leaders for the NFP, I very much doubt if Firaxis are going to want to go through the whole exercise again any time soon.

 

[AntSou]

The problem is between Spain, England, Netherlands, and Germany, there isn't much room for Portugal to feel conceptually very unique.

I don't think it can do much to differentiate itself from Spain unless there is some divine intervention from the dev team

These arguments regarding conceptual space keep popping up when talking about Civs.

This is not a matter of design space but of your own lack of creativity to conceive of abilities which do not overlap with one another within existing mechanics.

I agree design space is a thing, but it's wide and filled with possibilities, not heavily constrained like you seem to imagine it.

falling into the same traps that Spain has by having bonuses all over the place and not getting enough synergy between bonuses to make it a reliable civ

Spain's bonuses are nothing if not synergistic. The only thing that Civ needs is a boost to early Prophet points. It feels like you've just read the Civ's abilities and never bothered to play with it.

 

[GenyaArikado]

Omg if Kanye wins the presidency, can we have Kim Kardashian or Kris Jenner as an american alt leader? Just imagine the absurdity of it, i love it

Moderator Action: Please do not discuss current events or politics in the game threads. leif

 

[Republic of San Montuoso]

Omg if Kanye wins the presidency, can we have Kim Kardashian or Kris Jenner as an american alt leader? Just imagine the absurdity of it, i love it

It would be against the rules of no depicting any living leader (if not Elizabeth II would have been present since a long time ago). So if Kanye wins, we'll have to 1) either wait for Civ XII to depict him or 2) having an "accident" happening to him.

One way or the other, the modding community would clearly do him. And I would not be so adamant against the fact that some modders might be already creating him in their corner

Moderator Action: Please do not answer trolls. leif

 

[Wielki Hegemon]

Similarities with the Netherlands, Spain, England or Germany doesn't mean Portugal couldn't have some unique gameplay.
For example.
They could not build cities outside their home continent but they have UI Feitoria that can be built on the coastal title, acts like a culture bomb, works as a fort (defensive bonus plus outer defense), and claims all titles in range of one title around your Feitoria. Two titles claimed by Feitoria can be worked and improved titles provide you the luxury and strategic resources.
If Feitoria is built on City State title it doesn't claim territory for you, but it automatically grants you all luxury and strategic resources worked by this City State and grants you 2 free envoys in this City-State.
UU Nau can build Feitorias on coastal titles (1 charge)

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I would argue that Greeks were not true scientifics. They were incredible philosophers, that's true, but in terms of science? All the great scientific/engineers were outside of Greece per se. Euclide did mainly his work in Egypt, as well as Thales; Archimedes was in Syracuse. Pythagoras was completely a mystic and he did mathematical discoveries only by luck. But they were mainly philosophers, but Philosophy is represented by culture in Civ VI (look at Political Philosophy, Drama and Poetry... things typically greeks). Making Greeks a scientific civ would miss the point IMO because they were more known for philosophy, being culture.

Well Syracuse was a Greek colony so even though it was outside the realm of mainland Greece, it was still culturally Greek. In Archimedes life it was still independent of Rome or Carthage.
Don't get me wrong Greece does make sense as a cultural civ but it has enough merits to have at least extra Great Scientist points from somewhere.

Omg if Kanye wins the presidency, can we have Kim Kardashian or Kris Jenner as an american alt leader? Just imagine the absurdity of it, i love it

I don't want to imagine the absurdity.

 

[Republic of San Montuoso]

Similarities with the Netherlands, Spain, England or Germany doesn't mean Portugal couldn't have some unique gameplay.
For example.
They could not build cities outside their home continent but they have UI Feitoria that can be built on the coastal title, acts like a culture bomb, works as a fort (defensive bonus plus outer defense), and claims all titles in range of one title around your Feitoria. Two titles claimed by Feitoria can be worked and improved titles provide you the luxury and strategic resources.
If Feitoria is built on City State title it doesn't claim territory for you, but it automatically grants you all luxury and strategic resources worked by this City State and grants you 2 free envoys in this City-State.
UU Nau can build Feitorias on coastal titles (1 charge)

We don't have any civ/leader that deals with Natural Wonders. I don't mean in the way of Civ V Spain which was idiotic, but I proposed something like:
Age of Exploration - Gain 1 trade route capacity each time you discover a natural wonder, as well as 3 random inspirations. Trade routes have double yields if there is a Natural Wonder in the starting city.

It would tie nicely with the merchant/explorer gimmick of the Portugueses, and use a mechanic (natural wonders) that noone used for now. Plus I don't think it would be to owerpowered. But this is some sort of design that would make them different than any other maritime civ; Portuguese would have a really strong incentive to explore the world and settle in far away land because their bonuses are tied to discovering the map.

 

[Guynemer]

What does "name recognition" matter in a game with the likes of Eleanor, Lautaro, Kupe, Amanitore, Lady Six Sky, etc.?

Again, this is just a fan rule you're imagining to exist.

Eleanor does not belong on that list. She is a major historical figure in the history of England as well as France, as well as a major literary figure as well.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

We don't have any civ/leader that deals with Natural Wonders. I don't mean in the way of Civ V Spain which was idiotic, but I proposed something like:
Age of Exploration - Gain 1 trade route capacity each time you discover a natural wonder, as well as 3 random inspirations. Trade routes have double yields if there is a Natural Wonder in the starting city.

It would tie nicely with the merchant/explorer gimmick of the Portugueses, and use a mechanic (natural wonders) that noone used for now. Plus I don't think it would be to owerpowered. But this is some sort of design that would make them different than any other maritime civ; Portuguese would have a really strong incentive to explore the world and settle in far away land because their bonuses are tied to discovering the map.

This is exactly why I don't understand people saying that Portugal has no design space left and would overlap with the other maritime merchants in the game.
We don't have a Civ or leader that does deal with exploration and it would be perfect for the nation that started the Age of Discovery.

Eleanor does not belong on that list. She is a major historical figure in the history of England as well as France, as well as a major literary figure as well.

I wouldn't say she's well known in places like the U.S. I admit I really never knew too much about her. Not as well known as Elizabeth, Henry VIII, Victoria or Churchill which is probably what is meant.
Actually thanks to the stories of Robin Hood her sons, Richard and John, are definitely more popular than she is, at least what I've seen.

 

[Republic of San Montuoso]

Eleanor does not belong on that list. She is a major historical figure in the history of England as well as France, as well as a major literary figure as well.

With this reasoning, Kupe neither does not belong on this list, nor Lautaro. It's not because to us, Europeans, with our eurocentric view, don't consider them as "figure of historical importances" that they're not in their countries. They're on the same level on Eleanor IMO: very well known in the countries they originated from, easily known by amateurs outside of it, but not really as universal as Napoléon or Gengis Khan. Plus, Lautaro & Kupe are prominent figures in their own cultures; Eleanor is known, but stays kind in the background because we have so many other great names surpassing her.

 

[Wielki Hegemon]

Bonus for Portugal (trade route/envoys/Diplomatic Favor/civic boost/Era Score) if earned before Industrial Era for:
- discovering a new continent
- discovering natural wonder
- World's Circumnavigation

 

[untitledjuan]

Eleanor does not belong on that list. She is a major historical figure in the history of England as well as France, as well as a major literary figure as well.

Though I completely agree on you about Eleanor, it is also a matter of location and cultural background. For someone in Chile and southern South America, Lautaro is probably more well known than Eleanor.

 

[Thenewwwguy]

For those wondering why Bulgaria would be a science civ—I believe it is because they were known for amassing numerous libraries and books, similar to a Medieval Ashurbanipal, or Mathias Corvinus.

 

[AntSou]

The idea of unique Great Admirals for Portugal given earlier in the thread was pretty good. It mirrors Gran Colombia but applies it to a different domain.

Give "One Charge" to the Portuguese Unique Naval Unit towards building a PORTUGUESE_FORT(Feitoria) improvement on a land tile adjacent to the naval unit. It culture bombs adjacent territories. Gain a copy of each unimproved luxury resource adjacent to the Feitoria.

Portuguese Settlers or All Land Units inherit escort movement speed when attached to Naval Units.

 

[Republic of San Montuoso]

For those wondering why Bulgaria would be a science civ—I believe it is because they were known for amassing numerous libraries and books, similar to a Medieval Ashurbanipal, or Mathias Corvinus.

If they didn't give a single scientific/bookish trait to Mathias Corvinus while he had the biggest library of his time, I think it would be a hit-and-miss.

If we want a European science civ, I would argue that Ireland would fit it. After all, they had the most massive concentration of monasteries during the Early Middle Age, they were exported all around Europe (at a point than Rome were kind of afraid of them), and they started the Carolingian Renaissance. Problem with that idea: Scotland is already a science civ AND some people argue that they're currently occupying the "celt" slot, so having another scientific celt civ you be to redundant. But it would be extremely interesting.

Monasteries from Armagh should give a scientific bonus too. Only faith, habitation and healing is kind of weak.

 

[Futumch]

I like the idea of having Portugal as an upcoming civ. They had influence in quite a few places in their heyday. India, Timor, China (Macau), Southern Africa, South America. They certainly got around.