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[NFP] Civilization VI: Possible New Civilizations Thread

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Eagle Pursuit, May 11, 2020.

  1. Yubnub

    Yubnub Chieftain

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    Thank you PhoenicianGold for your comments; I think they were very clear and align much with my own.

    I will try to stay close to the topic as possible, but I think I would like to clarify some things regarding Semiramis. When I read comments saying that she wasn't famous or well-known, it honestly perplexed me; I knew about Semiramis years before I ever read about any other Assyrian king. Now, I am not a historian at all: I like history and I like to read up on all these different civs, but I am much more familiar with the arts than I am with history. I also love opera; from the Baroque to the Romantic, operas about larger-than-life characters are the norm. Semiramide by Rossini is a well-known and well-regarded opera, and the role of Semiramide a vehicle for skilled sopranos including the famous aria Bel raggio lusinghier. Anyone who listens to opera will know Semiramide, whether they like Rossini or not. If I may make an assumption, I would wager that this same audience will not be familiar with Assyrian kings, and I struggle to think of an opera that mentions Ashurbanipal, etc. (not that there hasn't been one written, just that they are not famous in the operatic world).

    This is just one example. I also recall encountering Semiramis in Christine de Pizan's The Book of the City of Ladies, an important Feminist literary work from the 15th century (which, funny enough, also mentions Dido and Theodora). To enthusiasts of Late Medieval literature, or Feminist theory, Semiramis would be well-know. My point is that Semiramis, depending on who you ask, is a very famous person, and much more than Ashurbanipal at that, shocking as that may seem.

    I realize that members of this forum look at leaders through a lens that values a specific set of standards for potential civ leaders, and that women leaders often do not fulfill these standards. As a member of this forum I realize and accept that this game will generally appeal to historians. The developers, thankfully, do not pick leaders based on the aforementioned strict standards. I find it rather insulting that suggestions for women leaders are reduced to "quota-filling;" when I suggested Semiramis, I simply thought she was famous enough, and that she would provide a nice visual contrast to Gilgamesh to help differentiate between Sumer and Assyria. I don't hope to convince people that my choice of leader is the correct one, but if she is chosen, I hope this will at least partially explain her appeal to people like me and not reduce her to "quota-filling."
     
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  2. Zaarin

    Zaarin Chief Medical Officer, DS9

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    Semiramis is not Shammuramat. Semiramis is a Greek myth; Shammuramat was an obscure Assyrian queen who may or may not have been the basis of the Greek myth. (Incidentally, this is what distinguishes Semiramis from Gilgabro in my opinion. Gilgamesh was a culture hero and a literary icon throughout Mesopotamia in an array of Sumerian, Babylonian, and Assyrian legends. Semiramis was a Greek myth--not an Assyrian myth, a Greek myth.)
     
  3. DWilson

    DWilson Where am I? What turn is it?

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    As to making Soviet Russia fit Civ VI, I could imagine a cool leader which converts the Lavra's faith and great prophet output (probably only the district, rather than buildings inside) to some other yeild, like culture, science, or production. It might need to be at less than cost to balance it, e.g. all of the faith is converted to 50% or 75% as much culture.

    Takes that non-religious aspect, largely ignores the religious victory, and converts the Lavra into something more fitting, without nerfing or eliminating the cultural GP power that makes it potent. As an added aside, it avoids making the relatively weak Peter useless, as the new leader is only valuable in reframing the Lavra, and thus can be not particularly strong themself. This is good, as I believe some leaders are deliberately weak (Peter, Wilhelmina, etc.)
     
  4. 8housesofelixir

    8housesofelixir Prince

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    Lingqu is Qin Dynasty's only canal, and it isn't a really good example for a dedicated ability: the Lingqu was build only for military purpose, to solve Qin's logistical issues in a war of conquest, and was out of use as soon as Qin collapsed - no need to use it if you are not interested in conquest anymore. When the Eastern Han Dynasty tried to deal with Trung sisters, the leading general (Ma Yuan) needed to dredge the Lingqu in order to use it, again for military purpose. It was not until Tang Dynasty that Lingqu became a frequently-used transportation infrastructure for both military and civil purposes.

    That's why I say Qin wasn't a big canal builder - a builder yes, but not a big one, and there are many other Chinese rulers who had build small strategical canals like Lingqu both before and after Qin (for instance the Han Gou canal of Wu, the Pinglu and Quanzhou canal of Cao Cao.) On the other hand, his comparison I made in the previous post, Kublai Khan, basically built the entire Grand Canal as we know today.

    Lengthy reasonings aside, I assume that Qin's canal ability is to represent the canal-love Chinese empires in general, so I actually don't have a big problem with that. I simply wish that if there is a alternative Chinese leader, some buffs of canal building can stay (especially if it's Kublai - I would love to see an alternative Chinese leader focusing on military/trade.)

    I have a question here, as you mentioned the commonality of Gilgamesh throughout Mesopotamia, and I am not really familiar with Mesopotamian history - Does the current Sumerian civ, with Gilgamesh as the leader, and its particular science and military bonuses, serve as a representation of the Mesopotamian civilizations in general?
     
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  5. Thenewwwguy

    Thenewwwguy Emperor

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    Im not sure who it was, but I personally want the chosen leader to be the one who fought Kublai’s Yuan specifically for thematic continuity, but I wouldn’t mind Trung Trac.
    Not to get back into this topic since we were told to stop, but you’re saying you agree with his points, but find quota filling and tokenizing offensive? You know he was the one advocating for quota filling, right??

    Either way, Semiramis was a greek myth of an Assyrian leader. She’s a hellenified version of an Assyrian empress who literally did nothing that we know of note.


    Not particularly. His abilities aren’t not Sumerian, but they’re somewhat lacking in terms of representing sumeria. That’s especially true if Sumer was supposed to represent Mesopotamia as a whole

    (I will say, Sukritact has a rework of Sumer that makes it much more Sumer)
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2020
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  6. DWilson

    DWilson Where am I? What turn is it?

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    The consensus is that Sumeria in civ is less Mesopotamia or Sumer, and more the Epic of Gilgamesh the civ, plus donkey carts and ziggurats.
     
  7. GenyaArikado

    GenyaArikado Judge of Love

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    I think that in a game with Dido and Tomyris, Semiramis is quite possible
     
  8. 8housesofelixir

    8housesofelixir Prince

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    Their were two Vietnam Emperors that fought with Kublai's Yuan, Tran Thanh Tong (Tran Hoang) and Tran Nhan Tong (Tran Kham, Hoang's son); both were on the frontline leading troops during the war.
     
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  9. Thenewwwguy

    Thenewwwguy Emperor

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    Dido and Tomyris actually had notable accomplishments to their name and were famous for reasons beyond being the subject of fascination by greek historians
     
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  10. Yubnub

    Yubnub Chieftain

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    This is rude and unnecessary. Please stop.

    I am aware of the Shammuramat/Semiramis connection. As I mentioned previously, "hero" and "icon" is a matter of perspective, and the answer will differ depending on who you ask. I don't care that Semiramis was a Greek myth. People like me want and like to see diverse and interesting figures. This game is based on history, yes, but it is not a history simulator, and it constantly reminds you of it.

    I didn't post here to get into an argument about my leader choices, and by now I hope I've made it very clear that I do not care whether someone thinks they're correct or not. I came here to enthusiastically speculate with like-minded people who share my views. I would like speculate on their leader agenda, their quotes, and their aesthetic without being shut down by people who don't like these choices, and whose voices tend to suffocate any conversation. Please, just let us be.

    Moderator Action: This is what happens when you ignore moderator warnings. leif
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 25, 2020
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  11. Lord Lakely

    Lord Lakely Idea Fountain

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    Just Mongolia is my guess. Why would you need R&F if you're going to add a leader who may also lead China? Doesn't make sense to me.


    Re: Samurammat, personally I'd love to see her (as I would love to see ANY Assyrian leader) and I chose her for my fictional Civ7 over [vast array of male leaders with more difficult names]. But I will own up that my reasons are completely shallow: I love Assyrian fashion and I think the leader model of an Assyrian queen would look simply stunning. Mechanically the abilities I gave her can be given to whichever the typical "Builder" Assyrian leader is.

    :brings out soapbox, stands on it:

    Generally speaking, I care very little for any male/female quota the devs forced upon themselves. The more civs you develop, the harder it is to force the gender and sex of a leader. Quality over quantity

    Having said that, reflect on this: Brave New World had 9 new leaders. Eight of those were led by men, the ninth by a [clinically insane] woman. There was some controversy but only about the choice of a female leader for Portugal. [To some degree I'd agree: why have Maria the mad over Dyah Gitarja or Sayyida al-Hurrah?] Maria felt like a token choice because she was. An XPAC with just 10 male leaders would've been less controversial, ironically enough.

    Now imagine if BNW was an xpac with a majority of female leaders. People would lose their goddamn' minds. It doesn't matter what great features these women accomplished. They are automatically bad, poltically correct, token choices, disqualified on the basis of breasts and oestrogen.

    Of the Civ 6 leaders, Seondeok sticks out the harshest in my mind. Sarah said "Queen Seondeok Leads Korea-" and the Korean gamer community responded with "[string of misogynistic epithets]". Seondeok who is one of the BEST female choices in the entire game, over two expansions and one express pass. Hardly a surprise though, considering the people who vilified her online are men whose female contacts are limited to (1) their mom (2) the server who gives them kimchi sandwiches during lunch hour in the eSport Comunity Centre. These people need to get outside more.

    Institutionlized sexism exists and it's very very real. Certain men feel *threatened* by the idea that women are their equal and respond with all forms of bigotry because it's easier than keeping an open mind and understanding how the world actually works. It's a tale as old as time. Semiramis was basically a prostitute queen because how DARE a woman have any power or authority over her male peers OH MY GOD THE TRAGEDY. Lol this reminds me of the similar fascination the Athenians had with the EVIL BLOOD-THIRSTY AMAZONS [Thesis: Is Misogyny Borne From First World Problems? See how erudite and prosperous Athens was a functional patriarchy while belligerent, crude and unrefined Sparta considered women of equal value, trained them in combat, literacy and mathematics, for it was the women who made the decisions while the men were out campaigning (which happened often, because Sparta). In many ways it is so so accurate that Gorgo is the one leading Sparta, not Leonidas]

    You can't really fix these issues in a day. Setting quota for yourself works, but are largely unideal as others will have to deal with them. Even if unintended, people will pick up on the fact that they're being lectured on gender equality and well... the main reason why political correctness is such godawful thing is because it prescribes "acceptable" and "unacceptable" behaviour, language, mindsets and that takes it in the opposite direction of where one should be going. Gender equality is a beautiful thing to strive for but the important take away is that only those who *want* to learn will learn. The others will either resist completely or be indoctrinated.

    The best way is to win people over by portraying the women you choose in a way that wins people over. People need to have a feeling of AGENCY over their decision-making, so they can draw empowerment from it themselves. This, the devs have done very, very well. I really disliked the choices of Kristina and CdM at first. (in that I never would have chosen either) Imagine having the opinion after having experienced them in game. The devs really made me open my eyes and realize that hey, these ladies kinda kicked ass irl as well, yo. It's made me hopeful that, perhaps one day, we'll see other sterling, bold choices, like a Livia for Rome, or a Mandukhai Khatun for Mongolia or a Walpole for England (you didn't think I'd toss in a male option would you? I must make sure I don't get acid attacked by Korean eSporters if I ever come over and visit)

    We've got a long road ahead of us, but Firaxis are fighting the good fight ^_^
     
  12. Hakan-i Cihan

    Hakan-i Cihan Emperor

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    Even if he leads only Mongolia, I expect a mod soon after the DLC that makes it possible for leading China too.
     
  13. untitledjuan

    untitledjuan Chieftain

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    Though I think Gran Colombia isn't perfectly represented, I do like it and the same happens to me. I'm Colombian, so I mostly play as Gran Colombia haha. Before them, I mostly played as Spain, Eleanor (France), Germany or Phoenicia.
     
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  14. SMcM

    SMcM Emperor

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    How do we know that for a fact?
     
  15. Haig

    Haig Deity

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    At work I talked with an American customer who talked about amazing buildings in Mesa Verde, I googled them and wow they look amazing.

    Could the NFP include a native American civ built around those carved cities, do they have known leaders and history?

    I bet there will be one native American civ in NFP.
     
  16. GenyaArikado

    GenyaArikado Judge of Love

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    The mythical Semiramis did, well, a lot. Dido/Elissa story was somewhat real but Tomyris probably isn't and neither Gilgamesh's (and his abilities are based on the myth)
     
  17. Alexander's Hetaroi

    Alexander's Hetaroi Deity

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    Yes it's more of a reflection on that China built canals in the past and since Qin built a canal, and he's a builder leader in general, they gave him that ability.

    If Kublai does lead China it looks like he will get some trading bonuses due to what we found out in the game files. Well he seems to be coming in the pack with some economy game mode. I'm not sure about military bonuses as that might just be him when playing Mongolia obviously.
    It was seen in the game files that Kublai Khan and Vietnam are likely to be coming later in Pack 5. It mentioned 2 leaders so obviously one would have to be Kublai Khan and one for Vietnam.

    I think that's unfortunately the Pueblo that built them that couldn't get in for Civ 5.
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2020
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  18. SMcM

    SMcM Emperor

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    Yeah, but one leader could actually be two on the screen- both of the Trung sisters.

    This carved cities are linked to Pueoblos, but I think that is a no go. I remember hearing that Pueblo were going to be in Civilization V but modern Pueblo people opposed it, so we had Shoshone in the game instead. The Mississipi people would be cool, they built some impressive earth structures and maybe under Tuskaloosa could be a good leader choice.
     
  19. Zaarin

    Zaarin Chief Medical Officer, DS9

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    No, not really. Like @Thenewwwguy said, it's really just representing The Epic of Gilgamesh.

    There are Phoenician legends about Dido and Iranian legends about Tomyris, but Semiramis is 100% a Greek invention.

    Then let her lead Greece (because we totally need a fifth Greek leader). We already have one horribly designed, out-of-place Mesopotamian civ. Those of us who are actually interested in Near Eastern history would like a well-designed one this time, thank you, with a more historical leader and a leader whose abilities are based on the history of the civilization, not an epic written a thousand years later. No, Civ6 is not a history simulator. Obviously. But Semiramis leading Assyria is roughly the equivalent of Princess Tiger Lily leading the "Native Americans"--I was going to suggest Tonto and the Comanche, but frankly the Semiramis myths were malicious in nature. I don't think mythical leaders are inherently a problem, but I think they should only be resorted to when there aren't good alternatives and drawn only from the myths and legends of the people they're leading.

    Moderator Action: Please let it go, I warned to stop this a while ago, please heed the warnings. leif

    If an echo chamber was all you wanted, I think you came to the wrong place. This is a discussion board. We discuss things. I'm not sure what you were expecting from a place with "fanatics" in the name. :crazyeye: Also, no one is "suffocating" a conversation; this is called having a conversation.

    The issue with the Mississippians is we only have records of them during their decline so they lack good leader options. Using one of the attested leaders would be roughly like choosing Romulus Augustulus--or at best, Majorian--for Rome. :(
     
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  20. Alexander's Hetaroi

    Alexander's Hetaroi Deity

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    But don't you want Alexios I Komnemeos? :p
    I agree with the rest of your statement by the way. It would be nice to have an Ancient leader in the game who wasn't based off of a myth. To me Dido and Gilgamesh are understandable, though they should just give the name epic quest to Gilgamesh's ability and make the civ ability called "Cradle of Civilization."
     

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