[NFP] Civilization VI: Possible New Civilizations Thread

[Wielki Hegemon]

I wouldn't say Mesopotamia is overlooked in Civ VI

 

[PhoenicianGold]

Fully agreed that Southeast Asia is underrepresented. At least add a city-state or two if not a full civ - which is why more city-states is also a good thing, not just more civs.

I would buy just city-state packs. I would especially buy city-state packs if they came with static leader images and ambience tracks to make them feel more distinct.

Fighting words indeed. Seriously, Burma has got to be a civ at some point (and Vietnam, but Vietnam at least is a fan favorite while Burma isn't). Burma has one of the longest histories of any extant Southeast Asian nation, from the Pyu city-states in BCE to the Pagan Kingdom, and then the Toungoo Empire was the largest empire ever in Southeast Asia in terms of land area.

isn’t this true of Vietnam, the Champa people and Cambodia/Khmer though as well?

Definitely longer than the Champa or Khmer. Burma can trace itself back to the second century BC; it has just as much history as Vietnam. Plus, payas are such an obvious UI for a civ.

Burma's one of my most-wanted new Civs, but I can live with Vietnam. At least it'd bring that region up to two for the first time, and realistically it's probably the best known candidate in that area in the US.

Considering that most Americans probably only learn about SEA from video games in the first place, any step forward is progress. Pretty much anything other than Mesopotamia or Europe gets completely overlooked unless they happened to interact with America. Anything south of the Equator or east of the Black Sea might as well be dragons, especially if it's not currently visible on the map. At least people remember the Inca for some reason?

I think VI has done an okay job at looking past pop history and shedding light on less acknowledged parts of the world, but I do think it can do better than stopping at Kongo, the Mapuche, Georgia, Gran Colombia, and Vietnam. As far as very large, distinct, enduring cultural paradigms go, we could still stand to see the Balkans (Bulgaria), the Maghreb (Numidia/Amazigh), the Omani Empire (Kilwa/Swahili), and probably something Burmese/Tibetan as the last very large, regionally uncontested empires on the map. I would also throw in something south central asian, except the only clear frontrunner is the Timurids and they're easily the least mechanically distinct/interesting option.

I would really hope the devs can fill most of those orders before the game is finished because it is very weird to see South America so filled out (and by such a vacuous civ design like GC) and other regions conspicuously empty.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Burma's one of my most-wanted new Civs, but I can live with Vietnam. At least it'd bring that region up to two for the first time, and realistically it's probably the best known candidate in that area in the US.

Considering that most Americans probably only learn about SEA from video games in the first place, any step forward is progress. Pretty much anything other than Mesopotamia or Europe gets completely overlooked unless they happened to interact with America. Anything south of the Equator or east of the Black Sea might as well be dragons, especially if it's not currently visible on the map. At least people remember the Inca for some reason?

The Inca are the most well known Pre-Colombian empire in South America, which is why they are easier to pick out over the various other empires from Africa or East Asia which end up competing with each other over a spot.

Though I do agree that other than Ancient and Classical China, Ancient and Classical India, and Japan in WWII, the rest of East Asia was overlooked at least in my world history classes in high school. Though to be fair we also briefly talked about the Aztecs, Maya and Inca at the same time during the Spanish exploration and conquests of the New World.

 

[LoneRebel]

isn’t this true of Vietnam, the Champa people and Cambodia/Khmer though as well?

I'm not certain, I'll have to do some research. Chinese records speak of ancient Southeast Asian states they called "Funan" and "Chenla", but the relation of these polities to the present-day nations is unclear to me. Funan seems to have occupied the exact same area as Cambodia and Champa, but I'm not sure whether it was a direct predecessor to those two, an ethnically unrelated state that got conquered, etc.

 

[8housesofelixir]

I'm not certain, I'll have to do some research. Chinese records speak of ancient Southeast Asian states they called "Funan" and "Chenla", but the relation of these polities to the present-day nations is unclear to me. Funan seems to have occupied the exact same area as Cambodia and Champa, but I'm not sure whether it was a direct predecessor to those two, an ethnically unrelated state that got conquered, etc.

It is very likely (although still subject to scholarly debate) that Chenla (真臘, zhenla) is an alternative ancient Chinese transliteration of Champa (usually called 占婆 zhanpo in Chinese). The Southern-Vietnam-based Champa first shown up in Chinese records around the same time when Khmer replaced the Cambodia-based Chenla.

Funan is geographically more close to Cambodia/Khmer, although the word funan isn't of Khmer origin.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

The problem with pirate will be the same with nomadic people: Although historically both were never a united state with a list of core cities, they will be united as whole with a list of cities when implemented in the game. (I'm looking at you, in-game Scythia)

I could see pirates being a game mode like vampires. Something involving coastal pirate haven tiles/city-states that automatically create trade routes between them, and the ability to levy pirate ship units. Given how popular the buccaneers mods are (and pirates in general), how consistent the concept of pirates is across the globe, and how much the game could use some naval intrigue, I think it's highly likely to be on the development table.

Personally I like the idea of Pirates being an evolved version of the Venice civ, and could be led by multiple leaders like Ching Shih, Sayyida Al Hurra, Grace O'Malley, Rais Hamidou, Francis Drake, Koxinga, etc. But the devs would never put so much effort/resources into developing so many leaders for a single civ.

 

[tetley]

If you want to make it interesting....

The Yeneiseian people. Right now I would argue they are represented in the game as barbarians (similar to Andronovo) or the Huns, since they lived in pre-BC Siberia. What makes these people interesting as a full civilization: Mammoths! The last mammoths finally went extinct around 1500 BC, which means Moses and mammoths walked the planet at the same time. Although...Moses was in Egypt; mammoths were in Siberia, so nowhere close to each other. You can see this stuff at the NYC Museum of Natural History.

I don't care whether you made these guys snow people (like barbarians already are). What I think would be cool is if they a) started the game in Ancient Age in a Golden Age, and b) had unique prehistoric bonuses. Only they have access to mammoths, sabre-tooth tigers, dinosaurs, and the like (depending on how much artistic license you want to take...)...*IF* they manage to keep them alive. Which in real history, they didn't. The way you preserve them I think is simple: they appear as a resource. They can either choose to harvest the resource or preserve it.

 

[8housesofelixir]

I could see pirates being a game mode like vampires. Something involving coastal pirate haven tiles/city-states that automatically create trade routes between them, and the ability to levy pirate ship units. Given how popular the buccaneers mods are (and pirates in general), how consistent the concept of pirates is across the globe, and how much the game could use some naval intrigue, I think it's highly likely to be on the development table.

There is a "new city-states" announce on the roadmap of NFP. There is some chance that this can mean a new type of city-states, and IMHO if you want me to speculate I can imagine "Pirate City-States" as a new type of CS - although the mechanism of them will probably be more complicated than current CS mechanism, so not that likely.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

There is a "new city-states" announce on the roadmap of NFP. There is some chance that this can mean a new type of city-states, and IMHO if you want me to speculate I can imagine "Pirate City-States" as a new type of CS - although the mechanism of them will probably be more complicated than current CS mechanism, so not that likely.

It will most likely be like the new city-state announced for the Maya and Gran Colombia pack, a new set of six city-states from the existing types. However there's nothing ruling out a trade or military city-state being a city historically lead by pirates.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

If you want to make it interesting....

The Yeneiseian people. Right now I would argue they are represented in the game as barbarians (similar to Andronovo) or the Huns, since they lived in pre-BC Siberia. What makes these people interesting as a full civilization: Mammoths! The last mammoths finally went extinct around 1500 BC, which means Moses and mammoths walked the planet at the same time. Although...Moses was in Egypt; mammoths were in Siberia, so nowhere close to each other. You can see this stuff at the NYC Museum of Natural History.

The book of Exodus is widely regarded in the historian community as wholly mythic and the historicity of a Moses figure is, put generously, dubious. There's virtually no evidence that the book of Exodus--like many religious origin myths--ever actually happened. That doesn't take away from its value as a cultural fiction to unite and inspire people, mind. But I think it's quite a stretch to use the Bible as a measuring stick against other historic events.

I don't care whether you made these guys snow people (like barbarians already are). What I think would be cool is if they a) started the game in Ancient Age in a Golden Age, and b) had unique prehistoric bonuses. Only they have access to mammoths, sabre-tooth tigers, dinosaurs, and the like (depending on how much artistic license you want to take...)...*IF* they manage to keep them alive. Which in real history, they didn't. The way you preserve them I think is simple: they appear as a resource. They can either choose to harvest the resource or preserve it.

I would very much like to see what the devs could/might do with a prehistoric mode or civ.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

The book of Exodus is widely regarded in the historian community as wholly mythic and the historicity of a Moses figure is, put generously, dubious. There's virtually no evidence that the book of Exodus--like many religious origin myths--ever actually happened. That doesn't take away from its value as a cultural fiction to unite and inspire people, mind. But I think it's quite a stretch to use the Bible as a measuring stick against other historic events.



I would very much like to see what the devs could/might do with a prehistoric mode or civ.

I've said this before so I should just leave it be, but I think a prehistoric civ would be a great spinoff game. Map representing a much smaller area, then when you get to the point where you create your first permanent settlement, that's your first city in a transition to regular civ.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I've said this before so I should just leave it be, but I think a prehistoric civ would be a great spinoff game. Map representing a much smaller area, then when you get to the point where you create your first permanent settlement, that's your first city in a transition to regular civ.

I think it would be interesting if Civ took the early game the direction that Humankind is doing. That is wandering around first acting like hunter-gatherers before you are able to settle your first city.
Either make it a game mode now for Civ 6 or make one of the upcoming Civs have it for a new mechanic to test it out for maybe all the civs in Civ 7.

 

[8housesofelixir]

I think it would be interesting if Civ took the early game the direction that Humankind is doing. That is wandering around first acting like hunter-gatherers before you are able to settle your first city.

I think Maori's no-city bonuses can be an adequate direction for wandering-around-first playstyle in civ.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I think Maori's no-city bonuses can be an adequate direction for wandering-around-first playstyle in civ.

Yes I was thinking something similar to that plus starting out with an extra scout unit in addition to a warrior and settler. Maybe a slinger as well.
Of course you would have to bring back some roaming animals again like in Civ 4.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

I've said this before so I should just leave it be, but I think a prehistoric civ would be a great spinoff game. Map representing a much smaller area, then when you get to the point where you create your first permanent settlement, that's your first city in a transition to regular civ.

I think it could very easily work as a game mode you could tack on as an additional era.

I think it would be interesting if Civ took the early game the direction that Humankind is doing. That is wandering around first acting like hunter-gatherers before you are able to settle your first city.
Either make it a game mode now for Civ 6 or make one of the upcoming Civs have it for a new mechanic to test it out for maybe all the civs in Civ 7.

I was actually surprised to hear that Humankind included that feature; I have yet to actually look at the neolithic mode in detail. I had been musing about adding something like that a couple years ago, where if I recall the basic structure of it was:

* You have a production queue but can only produce hunters (precursor to warrior) and foragers (precursor to scout)
* You have a "food bar" that you need to fill before you can produce a settler.
* You also have a "knowledge" bar that you need to fill before you can produce a settler.
* Barbarians do not exist yet. Animal tiles do not exist yet. Instead, "game" units wander around that must be killed by hunters, which fill your bar.
* Plant yield tiles exist and can be harvested by foragers but upon harvesting they disappear for a set number of turns. Plant yield do not fill your bar as much as animals.
* Bar decreases every turn, so player is incentivized to keep moving toward nearby game and plantlife.
* Knowledge bar can only be filled through discoveries, some scattered around the map, and some locked by the hunter/forager ability trees.
* Maybe have some rudimentary improvements either unit can build with charges like campfires, shrines, etc. that grant limited bonuses.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I was actually surprised to hear that Humankind included that feature; I have yet to actually look at the neolithic mode in detail. I had been musing about adding something like that a couple years ago, where if I recall the basic structure of it was:

* You have a production queue but can only produce hunters (precursor to warrior) and foragers (precursor to scout)
* You have a "food bar" that you need to fill before you can produce a settler.
* You also have a "knowledge" bar that you need to fill before you can produce a settler.
* Barbarians do not exist yet. Animal tiles do not exist yet. Instead, "game" units wander around that must be killed by hunters, which fill your bar.
* Plant yield tiles exist and can be harvested by foragers but upon harvesting they disappear for a set number of turns. Plant yield do not fill your bar as much as animals.
* Bar decreases every turn, so player is incentivized to keep moving toward nearby game and plantlife.
* Knowledge bar can only be filled through discoveries, some scattered around the map, and some locked by the hunter/forager ability trees.
* Maybe have some rudimentary improvements either unit can build with charges like campfires, shrines, etc. that grant limited bonuses.

That's basically how I see it other than I don't think any major infrastructure needs to be built yet like shrines and I'm not sure where you can produce units. I think slingers would also be useful and just try to work with three of those units at the beginning.

Once you reach the max on the food and knowledge bar it would let you unlock the first technology, Agriculture, that allow your first settler to appear and the ability to build farms. From there the regular tech tree then goes on like normal.

I do know that Humankind had mammoths that you could send your units out to try to kill for food but that more of a risk than going after easier deer, from the limited gameplay I watched. Mammoths would be a bigger risk but bigger reward in the end.

 

[Thenewwwguy]

It will most likely be like the new city-state announced for the Maya and Gran Colombia pack, a new set of six city-states from the existing types. However there's nothing ruling out a trade or military city-state being a city historically lead by pirates.

Mogadishu comes to mind?

I've said this before so I should just leave it be, but I think a prehistoric civ would be a great spinoff game. Map representing a much smaller area, then when you get to the point where you create your first permanent settlement, that's your first city in a transition to regular civ.

humankind is doing this, i think it would be fun

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Mogadishu comes to mind?

I was thinking more along the lines of something in the Caribbean like Nassau, Tortuga, or Port Royal during the Golden Age of Piracy in the 17-18th century instead of the more modern Somali pirates.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

That's basically how I see it other than I don't think any major infrastructure needs to be built yet like shrines and I'm not sure where you can produce units. I think slingers would also be useful and just try to work with three of those units at the beginning.

Yeah the problem I see infrastructure fixing is giving the player something to do. The biggest issue I have with a prehistoric era, at least how I envisioned it, is that it would functionally be terribly boring, effectively a sort of low-energy bottleneck preventing the player from moving on to the more interesting eras. So it would need to have enough going on for its own sake that would keep players engaged and not feeling like a slogging collectathon/fetchquest.

Once you reach the max on the food and knowledge bar it would let you unlock the first technology, Agriculture, that allow your first settler to appear and the ability to build farms. From there the regular tech tree then goes on like normal.

Yep, basically that. And also unlock the first civic, housing.

I do know that Humankind had mammoths that you could send your units out to try to kill for food but that more of a risk than going after easier deer, from the limited gameplay I watched. Mammoths would be a bigger risk but bigger reward in the end.

That seems like something along the lines of what might make the prehistoric era snappier. I just don't know if it is enough or how Humankind balances that yet. Curious to see it in its final stage.

Mogadishu comes to mind?

Oof, that's a little topical. I would imagine a pirate city-state would be better of being further in the past, something like Algiers or New Providence. And similarly, I feel like Mogadishu would be better off representing the Ajuran Sultanate.

 

[Andrew Johnson [FXS]]

It is very likely (although still subject to scholarly debate) that Chenla (真臘, zhenla) is an alternative ancient Chinese transliteration of Champa (usually called 占婆 zhanpo in Chinese). The Southern-Vietnam-based Champa first shown up in Chinese records around the same time when Khmer replaced the Cambodia-based Chenla.

Funan is geographically more close to Cambodia/Khmer, although the word funan isn't of Khmer origin.

The origins of some of these words: Funan, Chenla, Siam are not really clear, but what is consistent is that a lot of these regions have names that are of foreign origin. But there is a very, very cool account of Cambodia from Zhou Daguan, a Chinese merchant, from the 1100s. What I love about Zhou is that he really describes everyday life; stelae only talk about kings and armies, but Zhou describes what people wear, how the different religions (royal-focused Brahminism, Buddhism, animism) interact, and even what people do for fun. I've taught his work in class, it's great!