[NFP] Civilization VI: Possible New Civilizations Thread

I think Cuba as country and its people have achieve a lot of good things like it was mention before, but everyone agrees that cuban dictadorship is one of the most cruel in the history of the americas; but i think there is a chance to have a Cuban civ that its not lead by Castro
I agree in general, but I think other Spanish American countries are more representative than Cuba. I still see Argentina, Chile or even Mexico as more likely than Cuba. However, it is unlikely to see any other modern Spanish American nation after Colombia, at least in NFP

AoE2 timeline is 400 to 1600. There are many late 16th century scenarios. There are also the late Goths from Crimea on the Principality of Theodoro, so there are not problam with spaniards amd goths at the same time.
And also the Mediterranean architecture in AoE2 has some baroque elements, which clearly show an early 1600s end date for its timeline
 
AoE2 timeline is 400 to 1600. There are many late 16th century scenarios. There are also the late Goths from Crimea on the Principality of Theodoro, so there are not problam with spaniards amd goths at the same time.


I would love to have a Philippine civ, for me it would be way more interesting than the anglo/greek saturation we already have.
And also the Mediterranean architecture in AoE2 has some baroque elements, which clearly show an early 1600s end date for its timeline

My point wasn't that Spain and Portugal weren't part of AoE's accepted timeframe, but that the timeframe itself was a little overbroad. We didn't need a Renaissance and Baroque period, particularly where so few civs were part of that era.

If use shirt is relevant Andres Guazurarí is an option for a Guarani leader.

And by the way Guaranies are more than "natives resisting colonization". Guarani language is the only native american language spoken mainly by not ("pure") indigenous, with millions of paraguayans speaking it. At the same time many Guarani adapted to european ways and some reached high economic status in colonial societies.
Spoiler Guarani pics :






The Chiriguanos are also an example of this guarani interculturality, since they mixed with their subjugated arawak peoples of eastern Bolivia.

There are also a group of stories from the many regional guarani partialities, that tell ous about two great related caciques at the time of the spanish arrival, the cacique Guairá and cacique Paragua, the former chosee to live on the jungle and the later to mix with the spaniards and live on the fields. For me is interesting to see an extended native national story that acknowledge both the ethnogenesis and relation between Guaranies and Paraguayans, contrary to other stories where "the other" are see as complety unrelated and/or the mixed ones are see as isolated indentity-less.

So their in game design could be worked aroud the idea of mutual cultural influences. Not to forget that the famous argentinian Maté drink is of guarani origin!

I'm not sure how this would translate mechanically or visually. Plus Brazil and the Mapuche already have a sort of cultural angle.

I hadn't yet addressed the subject of imperialism either. All of the civs so far (with Scotland just barely squeaking by) were imperialistic or expansionist. Brazil was practically an empire, and the Mapuche took over large amounts of territory in Argentina. I don't think the Guarani have a very strong history of expansionism; they were a pretty localized people. To that end, they feel more like a smaller kingdom better represented by a city-state. I just don't see the Guarani as an "empire", and until civ moves away from that meritocracy they just don't make a lot of sense as an exploring and/or conquering culture.
 
that’s not really true. Mapuche didn’t take over too much land, the various mapuche tribes and nations occupied that land. Most wars were squabbles within those tribes or fighting against imperialist advances, first from the inca, then from spain.

Poland wasn’t particularly expansionist, and while athens created large alliances, they never really sought out to expand their own polity. Gandhi-India certainly wasn’t expansionist, nor were the Maori, who again, settled the land and then mostly had inter-tribe squabbles.

Gran Colombia wasn’t expansionist, it was just 3 provinces of new spain that declared independence at the same time and chose to unite to maximize their power and leverage against falling back into colonialism. Nor was Brazil, which’s large size is lent to the imperialism of the portuguese, not any desire or intent for expansion in Brazil itself.

Kongo wasn’t expansionist. Nor were the Cree or Maya, really, either (the maya, like the other city state civs, largely fought amongst themselves in any wars). Georgia wasn’t expansionist either.

The key point here is Civ != empire. I think civ means a culture or nation which left a profound impact in regional or international history (or continues to do so)
 
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that’s not really true. Mapuche didn’t take over too much land, the various mapuche tribes and nations occupied that land. Most wars were squabbles within those tribes or fighting against imperialist advances, first from the inca, then from spain.

La Pampa, Rio Negro, Chubut, and Nequen are quite large and make up about 25% of Argentina. But point is, the Mapuche at least have a history of taking (and taking back) territory, just barely qualifying them as an expansionist culture.

Poland wasn’t particularly expansionist, and while athens created large alliances, they never really sought out to expand their own polity. Gandhi-India certainly wasn’t expansionist, nor were the Maori, who again, settled the land and then mostly had inter-tribe squabbles.

Expansionist or imperialistic.

* Poland-Lithuania was basically an empire, at least to the extent that Austria-Hungary was, or Hungary alone, or Georgia.
* Greece was largely included in the past because Macedonia; it's admittedly a little odd now that Alexander was split off from Greece. It might be a strong case for civ to abandon the idea of empires altogether in VII.
* Gandhi's Indian nationalism was borderline imperialist, and at least on that front I think he unequivocally fits in the game, even if in most other respect he is disappointing compared to better options.
* Maori had at least an oral history of wayfaring, and certainly settled the entirety of New Zealand. They were another stretch, but they at least mostly jive with the core 4X mechanics.

Gran Colombia wasn’t expansionist, it was just 3 provinces of new spain that declared independence at the same time and chose to unite to maximize their power and leverage against falling back into colonialism. Nor was Brazil, which’s large size is lent to the imperialism of the portuguese, not any desire or intent for expansion in Brazil itself.

GC was like a reverse-empire, but it had many of the similar signatures and cultural vestiges of an empire, helped a lot by the fact that New Granada had existed for a long time prior. And Brazil occupies that happy space shared with Canada and Australia in that, by the time it achieved independence, it didn't need to expand; it was already huge and a dominant regional power, making it inherently imperial-ish from its inception.

Kongo wasn’t expansionist. Nor were the Cree or Maya, really, either (the maya, like the other city state civs, largely fought amongst themselves in any wars). Georgia wasn’t expansionist either.

* The Cree, as far as I remember, were a dominant power in intertribal warfare and sprawled all across the Canadian frontier. They are about as much an expansionist/imperialist NA tribe as the Shoshone, perhaps a bit more.
* The Maya are generally agreed to be an empire and had many imperial tendencies.
* Georgia is colloquially referred to as an empire here and there, and definitely displayed imperialist traits during its golden age.
* Kongo...I think the developers take what they can get in Bantu Africa. Like the Zulu it's the closest thing we have to an empire, native or otherwise, outside of South Africa.

The key point here is Civ != empire. I think civ means a culture or nation which left a profound impact in regional or international history (or continues to do so)

There's clearly some sort of standard in place. Where we don't have straight-up empires, we have kingdoms which were very close to empires (Kongo, Georgia, Hungary, Scotland), and absent that we have very large tribes known for spreading and conquering/reconquering (Cree, Mapuche, Maori, Scythia). We don't have any civ in the game yet that generally didn't ever try to reach beyond its territory and influence its neighbors, and I think that is an implied requirement for civs in VI where it a) has a natural, uncontroversial synergy with 4X design values and b) keeps the number of civs the devs need to consider with a reasonable scope. This latter bit is again quite important because if the Guarani could get in, then everyone would clamor for the dozens of other smaller kingdoms which didn't having any warping effect on their neighbors.
 
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Gran Colombia wasn’t expansionist, it was just 3 provinces of new spain that declared independence at the same time and chose to unite to maximize their power and leverage against falling back into colonialism. Nor was Brazil, which’s large size is lent to the imperialism of the portuguese, not any desire or intent for expansion in Brazil itself.

Also keep in mind that Gran Colombia, even though it's original idea was to gain independence for New Granada, when Bolívar occupied Bogota, which can be seen as fulfilling the objective as it was the capital of the New Kingdom of Granada since the 1530's, he didn't stop there. The reason Venezuela and Ecuador separated from Gran Colombia was because Bolivar, instead of stopping there with the territory of New Granada, decided to keep fighting the Spanish in Perú and Bolivia, which he conquered as well and named after himself. Then they sent naval expeditions to various Spanish colonies in the Caribbean as well, going as far as Florida, even though they had already conquered what was originally New Granada. There were even plans to annex the Dominican Republic and Puerto Rico. Bolívar's dream was to have a single United nation that went from California down to the southern tip of Argentina. Trying to do this he neglected government in the core states (Colombia, Venezuela and Ecuador) and the latter got independent.

That's similar to George Washington trying to conquer Canada and the British Caribbean even after already winning in the original 13 Colonies.

Brazil did capture territory from Natives (as did Colombia afterwards), but also took parts of the Amazon from all its northern neighbors and huge parts of Paraguay and Uruguay in wars such as the War of the Triple Alliance.

However, both civs weren't what one would "traditionaly" think as expansionistic, but they did have some traits of being like that. They felt as continuation of their respective "imperial" former polities, namely the Kingdom of Brazil and the New Kingdom of Granada.
 
Argentina led by Bartolomé Mitre would suit me. Rather than have Guarani led by some obscure chieftain, better would be Paraguay with maybe Rodríguez de Francia.
 
that’s not really true. Mapuche didn’t take over too much land, the various mapuche tribes and nations occupied that land. Most wars were squabbles within those tribes or fighting against imperialist advances, first from the inca, then from spain.
With their newfound technology, thanks to contact with the Spanish, they did move eastward into Argentina and came to dominate the other people in the Patagonia region. Therefore that's why they are being primary indigenous people in Argentina today, as well as Chile.
 
I hadn't yet addressed the subject of imperialism either. All of the civs so far (with Scotland just barely squeaking by) were imperialistic or expansionist. Brazil was practically an empire, and the Mapuche took over large amounts of territory in Argentina. I don't think the Guarani have a very strong history of expansionism; they were a pretty localized people. To that end, they feel more like a smaller kingdom better represented by a city-state. I just don't see the Guarani as an "empire", and until civ moves away from that meritocracy they just don't make a lot of sense as an exploring and/or conquering culture.

Well Guarani dominated area (eastern Bolivia, Paraguay, northeastern Argentina and southern Brazil) was the size of Spain+France. The Chriguano partiality was clearly expansionist, conquering the southern Arawak peoples and raiding the Inca empire. They also represent the southern part of the bigger Tupi-Guarani peoples.

The only real reason to see unlikely the Guarani is their obvious lack of "market appealing", the main buyers are anglo countries, civs like Cree and Shoshone are the clear examples of this. There are not historical reasons to not put Guarani at the level of Navajo, Cree, Maori or Mapuche. Caribs are another unlikely but justified civ option.
 
Well Guarani dominated area (eastern Bolivia, Paraguay, northeastern Argentina and southern Brazil) was the size of Spain+France. The Chriguano partiality was clearly expansionist, conquering the southern Arawak peoples and raiding the Inca empire. They also represent the southern part of the bigger Tupi-Guarani peoples.

The only real reason to see unlikely the Guarani is their obvious lack of "market appealing", the main buyers are anglo countries, civs like Cree and Shoshone are the clear examples of this. There are not historical reasons to not put Guarani at the level of Navajo, Cree, Maori or Mapuche. Caribs are another unlikely but justified civ option.

Yeah, I think Guarani is as worthy as the ones you mentioned, but not so well known to the public outside South America, unfortunately. Although Mapuche was also not very well known to the general public and was added.

Edit. I'm happy that Latin America has received a lot of representation in this game, as it has been largely neglected in previous games. Since most of the major Latin American civs are already in the game, I’m not too concerned with which one they would choose for a second round of passes. Taíno, Muisca, Guarani, Argentina, Zapotecs, Tupi... all of them would be good choices.
 
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Yeah, I think Guarani is as worthy as the ones you mentioned, but not so well known to the public outside South America, unfortunately. Although Mapuche was also not very well known to the general public and was added.

Edit. I'm happy that Latin America has received a lot of representation in this game, as it has been largely neglected in previous games. Since most of the major Latin American civs are already in the game, I’m not too concerned with which one they would choose for a second round of passes. Taíno, Muisca, Guarani, Argentina, Zapotecs, Tupi... all of them would be good choices.
the purépecha/tarascans also. Purépecha was the third largest empire in the americas pre-colombian contact. They never lost to the Aztecs in wars bcs they understood metallurgy, built giant T-shaped step pyramids, made loads of art, and such. They also have a great leader choice in Princess Eréndira, a mexican folk hero, and a princess of purépecha who led a war of resistance against the spanish when the king of purépecha chose to capitulate without a fight. Because Purépecha is very different from Mapuche in terms of who they are as a civ, I don’t think the similarities between Eréndira and Lautaro will be a problem
 
Well Guarani dominated area (eastern Bolivia, Paraguay, northeastern Argentina and southern Brazil) was the size of Spain+France.

They had pretty spotty influence/control over those regions in Brazil, Argentina, and Bolivia, and their core, contiguous territory was effectively defined by modern Paraguay borders. Paraguay is only 2/3 the size of Spain, and 3/5 the size of France. I think that size comparison is overly generous (to be fair, Georgia at its height was only 2/3 the size of modern Paraguay, and Kongo only 1/3...but those also didn't have any larger neighbors to compete with).

The Chriguano partiality was clearly expansionist, conquering the southern Arawak peoples and raiding the Inca empire. They also represent the southern part of the bigger Tupi-Guarani peoples.

To be fair, the Chiriguano didn't really have to go very far to raid effectively the outskirts of the Incan empire in Oroncota and Samaipata. And similarly, they never pushed any farther past those points during Spanish-occupied Bolivia. Although they were a threat, they were pretty much contained and didn't seem to advance much territory. Definitely not on the same level as the Mapuche taking over the entire Pampas.

I still don't really buy that the Guarani fit the "imperialist" mold that the other civs do. They feel like Bohemia to me. Very concentrated, very strong, but never really conquered anyone or exerted a larger cultural paradigm. That's city-state material.

The only real reason to see unlikely the Guarani is their obvious lack of "market appealing", the main buyers are anglo countries, civs like Cree and Shoshone are the clear examples of this. There are not historical reasons to not put Guarani at the level of Navajo, Cree, Maori or Mapuche. Caribs are another unlikely but justified civ option.

They also just weren't as populous as the Mapuche, didn't cover as much territory as the Mapuche, and didn't serve a double role as vicariously representing large polities like Argentina and Chile. The Mapuche were just a better choice all around for the "south of Brazil/Inca" civ, and I don't think there was ever any serious consideration that there would be more than one in VI. Just because the Guarani are the only reasonable choice to add for a fifth civ doesn't mean they were on the same level as the Mapuche or that forcing a fifth SA civ into VI is necessary.

the purépecha/tarascans also. Purépecha was the third largest empire in the americas pre-colombian contact. They never lost to the Aztecs in wars bcs they understood metallurgy, built giant T-shaped step pyramids, made loads of art, and such. They also have a great leader choice in Princess Eréndira, a mexican folk hero, and a princess of purépecha who led a war of resistance against the spanish when the king of purépecha chose to capitulate without a fight. Because Purépecha is very different from Mapuche in terms of who they are as a civ, I don’t think the similarities between Eréndira and Lautaro will be a problem

Sounds like they would have been a better city-state option than the Zapotec/Mexico?
 
Well Guarani dominated area (eastern Bolivia, Paraguay, northeastern Argentina and southern Brazil) was the size of Spain+France. The Chriguano partiality was clearly expansionist, conquering the southern Arawak peoples and raiding the Inca empire. They also represent the southern part of the bigger Tupi-Guarani peoples.

The only real reason to see unlikely the Guarani is their obvious lack of "market appealing", the main buyers are anglo countries, civs like Cree and Shoshone are the clear examples of this. There are not historical reasons to not put Guarani at the level of Navajo, Cree, Maori or Mapuche. Caribs are another unlikely but justified civ option.
If we were going for another SA civ I agree that the Guarini could be in the running. Though I think Argentina and the Muisca would still have more appeal and a better shot.

But right now South America has four civs compared to 3 in North America, not counting Mesoamerica, which only one is indigenous. I'd rather them focus on a civ from there first like the Navajo, Iroquois etc. before any more from South America, personally.

Sounds like they would have been a better city-state option than the Zapotec/Mexico?
Well considering those are both replacements I think it made the most sense to make a Zapotec city the scientific replacement of Palenque, and Mexico City an industrial replacement of Toronto, considering I'm not sure if scientific or industrial would have worked for them.
 
If we were going for another SA civ I agree that the Guarini could be in the running. Though I think Argentina and the Muisca would still have more appeal and a better shot.

But right now South America has four civs compared to 3 in North America, not counting Mesoamerica, which only one is indigenous. I'd rather them focus on a civ from there first like the Navajo, Iroquois etc. before any more from South America, personally.

I can think of half a dozen regions I would rather they focus on: the Western US, Eastern Europe, the Maghreb, south Central Asia, Bay of Bengal, Greenland. I would probably even give the Noongar more attention than the Guarani to prevent Australia from having the whole continent to itself.

Well considering those are both replacements I think it made the most sense to make a Zapotec city the scientific replacement of Palenque, and Mexico City an industrial replacement of Toronto, considering I'm not sure if scientific or industrial would have worked for them.

Ah yes, I do see that they've never swapped city types with the replacements. I just find the Zapotec and Mexico pretty underwhelming city-state choices haha.
 
I can think of half a dozen regions I would rather they focus on: the Western US, Eastern Europe, the Maghreb, south Central Asia, Bay of Bengal, Greenland. I would probably even give the Noongar more attention than the Guarani to prevent Australia from having the whole continent to itself.
Well I can agree with maybe the first three at least.
 
Well I can agree with maybe the first three at least.

Oh and the Arabian peninsula and Swahili coast. Actually, I would even prioritize something from the Guinea coast too over the Guarani. Africa just has a lot of holes atm.
 
I can think of half a dozen regions I would rather they focus on: the Western US, Eastern Europe, the Maghreb, south Central Asia, Bay of Bengal, Greenland. I would probably even give the Noongar more attention than the Guarani to prevent Australia from having the whole continent to itself.

Oh and the Arabian peninsula and Swahili coast. Actually, I would even prioritize something from the Guinea coast too over the Guarani. Africa just has a lot of holes atm.

Of these places, I'd say that North America and Maghreb are the ones that are most in need of civs. Three civs for North America is really few while Maghreb is empty.

For Eastern Europe, the Byzantines are priorities, but not because they're from this region, but because of their historical importance. After that, I don't know if another civ from this region is a priority, even though I'd like to see Romania or Bulgaria.

Is there a possible civ for Greenland other than the Inuit? I don't know if we have enough resources for an Inuit civilization.

Do Australian Aboringenes allow them to be represented in electronic games? I've seen somewhere that they don't allow representation in video games or media in general, I don't know enough about them, though. If I were to include another civ of Oceania, it'd be Hawaii led by Kamehameha, but this in another round of passes, I don’t think it’s a high priority.

I'd be fine if Southeast Asia stayed with Indonesia and Khmer although I like the idea of Vietnam in the game, I would cut this to include a Maghreb civ.

I agree that Africa should have more representation, but Maghreb is the African region that is at the highest priority at the moment. I think Africa may have a civ on its east coast too.

If I were to say the top priorities of the moment, these are:
Native North America
Ancient Mesopotamia
Maghreb
Medieval Eastern Europe (Byzantines)
Portugal (not because it covers any region, but because of its historical importance and lack of a civ focused on exploration and colonization)
East African coast (Madagascar would be my choice)
Caribbean (not as priority as the regions above, but still a region that lacks civ. My choice would be Taíno).
 
Of these places, I'd say that North America and Maghreb are the ones that are most in need of civs. Three civs for North America is really few while Maghreb is empty.

For Eastern Europe, the Byzantines are priorities, but not because they're from this region, but because of their historical importance. After that, I don't know if another civ from this region is a priority, even though I'd like to see Romania or Bulgaria.

Is there a possible civ for Greenland other than the Inuit? I don't know if we have enough resources for an Inuit civilization.

Do Australian Aboringenes allow them to be represented in electronic games? I've seen somewhere that they don't allow representation in video games or media in general, I don't know enough about them, though. If I were to include another civ of Oceania, it'd be Hawaii led by Kamehameha, but this in another round of passes, I don’t think it’s a high priority.

I'd be fine if Southeast Asia stayed with Indonesia and Khmer although I like the idea of Vietnam in the game, I would cut this to include a Maghreb civ.

I agree that Africa should have more representation, but Maghreb is the African region that is at the highest priority at the moment. I think Africa may have a civ on its east coast too.

If I were to say the top priorities of the moment, these are:
Native North America
Ancient Mesopotamia
Maghreb
Medieval Eastern Europe (Byzantines)
Portugal (not because it covers any region, but because of its historical importance and lack of a civ focused on exploration and colonization)
East African coast (Madagascar would be my choice)
Caribbean (not as priority as the regions above, but still a region that lacks civ. My choice would be Taíno).
i would just do a greenland civ if you wanted to do greenland. It’s largely inuit and makes far more sense than a generic inuit civ because greenland is an organized polity which has at least 15 settlements which are more than a few dozen people that could be cities in civ.

For the Caribbean, like I said, I would go Taino/Arawak, Cuba, Haiti, Carib in that order
 
Of these places, I'd say that North America and Maghreb are the ones that are most in need of civs. Three civs for North America is really few while Maghreb is empty.

Agreed.

For Eastern Europe, the Byzantines are priorities, but not because they're from this region, but because of their historical importance. After that, I don't know if another civ from this region is a priority, even though I'd like to see Romania or Bulgaria.

I don't think Romania ever had a chance to begin with and we now have vampires anyway. But Bulgaria is probably the last major European empire that has never been in the game.

Is there a possible civ for Greenland other than the Inuit? I don't know if we have enough resources for an Inuit civilization.

We had enough to cobble together the Mapuche and the Maori, and the Inuit are insanely popular among the modding community.

Do Australian Aboringenes allow them to be represented in electronic games? I've seen somewhere that they don't allow representation in video games or media in general, I don't know enough about them, though. If I were to include another civ of Oceania, it'd be Hawaii led by Kamehameha, but this in another round of passes, I don’t think it’s a high priority.

They've been depicted in film media, I'm not sure how that would be much different. Also, the Noongar are relatively progressive, having successfully sued for and acquired native land title to about 75,000 square miles a little south of Perth. That's about three times larger than the Navajo reservation (although admittedly not quite as big as the Cree's territory under Treaty 6).

I'd be fine if Southeast Asia stayed with Indonesia and Khmer although I like the idea of Vietnam in the game, I would cut this to include a Maghreb civ.

Continental Southeast Asia is woefully underrepresented. We still do not even have city-state representation for Burma, Bangkok, Malaysia, Bangladesh, or the Philippines. At the very least we need more city-state, but there are many, including myself, who think that Burma is at least as deserving, if not more deserving, than Vietnam.

If I were to say the top priorities of the moment, these are:
Native North America
Ancient Mesopotamia
Maghreb
Medieval Eastern Europe (Byzantines)
Portugal (not because it covers any region, but because of its historical importance and lack of a civ focused on exploration and colonization)
East African coast (Madagascar would be my choice)
Caribbean (not as priority as the regions above, but still a region that lacks civ. My choice would be Taíno).

Portugal will be in the game, but it really does feel superfluous next to Spain. Those two have always kind of twinned and diluted the flavor of every historical game. Assyria to a similar extent (why ancient Mesopotamia specifically when we already have an ancient Mesopotamian civ?).

I still wouldn't consider a Caribbean civ all that important. The Taino are a city-state now and they honestly fit that role better. Haiti and Cuba aren't really great options, either. I would be happy with a pirate civ, but on the whole I don't think the region needs anything.

i would just do a greenland civ if you wanted to do greenland. It’s largely inuit and makes far more sense than a generic inuit civ because greenland is an organized polity which has at least 15 settlements which are more than a few dozen people that could be cities in civ.

It's not really an independent polity, though. But I might buy it. If we get anything arctic, it almost definitely should be Inuit based on popularity, and the fact that they effectively shoved out and overtook the viking settlements.
 
Tinfoil shower thought, I just figured out how the devs are going to fill all the map gaps: Pirates.

City list:

Caribbean:
* Tortuga
* Port Royal
* Nassau

Maghreb (goodbye Berbers):
* Sale
* Algiers
* Porto Farina

Swahili Coast (so long Kilwa and Madagascar):

* Ile St. Marie

South China Sea (Sayonara Philippines):

* Macau
* Hai Tac
* Singapore

Ireland (heh):

* Clew Bay

They'll be the vampires of the sea.
 
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