[NFP] Civilization VI: Possible New Civilizations Thread

[SMcM]

I can see her for England considering she ruled for a bit as regent, but she never effectively had much power while queen of France.

I suppose her leading France is partly reflecting her rule of a region of the country, as duchess of Aquitaine in her own right. To be honest I think an Aquitaine civ like in JFD's Civ 5 mod would actually have been preferable to this dual leader thing (it is distinct enough and was de-facto independent for some time). But I've no doubt I'm in a minority on that.

More likely in tomorrow's livestream than the patch notes.

And thank you. Are you saying they will hint at the content or might they actually show something?

 

[8housesofelixir]

Or in terms of game mechanics - Eleanor is the only one that could have two different 'capitals' (and different leader backgrounds) for the different 'civs' (if ideally not the actual ones used in the game). Kublai would just have one (Xanadu presumably) where he ruled both Mongolia and China.

Kublai is an interesting case: He was enthroned in Xanadu, but after he failed to organize a Kurultai (the assembly for electing the Great Khan) in 1267 to legitimize his supreme power in the Mongol Empire - Kublai's enthronement was semi-illegal and all the other Khans turned against him later in 1269 - Kublai moved south and changed his capital to Beijing. He hoped to control what he already had (Northern China) and use them as his base to fight with other Khans, which he eventually succeed. As a result, Kublai's formal capital is Beijing, called Dadu at his time. All the imperial officials were stationed in Dadu, foreign figures such as Marco Polo also met Kublai in Dadu.

On the other hand, Xanadu, during Kublai's reign, was the summer capital of Yuan Empire; or more precisely, the capital of the Mongol part of his empire (Beijing is for the Chinese part). Kublai would move his court to Xanadu during the summer, like how Qing Emperors would move their court to Jehol during summer, or the Reisekönigtum (court without permanent location) of the Holy Roman Empire.

Although the devs could probably just choose "Xanadu" or even "Beijing" as Kublai's capital rather than "Dadu", considering how they choose "Xi'an" as Qin's capital (the city we know as Xi'an doesn't exist untill 6th century CE and it's 20 kms away from Qin's actual capital Xianyang).



One interesting side note: Multiple capitals or moving capitals is a common feature of the steppe people or former steppe people, as a middle ground between full-nomadic and permanent capitals. Tang has two capitals, Kublai also has two, Qing Emperors technically has three, the Khitans even have four (they would change their capital - or camps, precisely - every season). If, in the future, the civ series would like to touch the nomadic civs more carefully, this is something worth considering as a mechanic.

 

[SMcM]

considering how they choose "Xi'an" as Qin's capital (the city we know as Xi'an doesn't exist untill 6th century CE and it's 20 kms away from Qin's actual capital Xianyang).

Why is Xi'an his capital then?

 

[Thenewwwguy]

Also, she was actually French so that still makes her more appropriate than Catherine in my book.

Technically, Occitan was both culturally and politically autonomous from ‘France’ as a culture, and even now there’s a considerable amount of political agitation there to become independent. Less so than, say, Catalunya, Hong Kong, but kinda liek Quebec in that it exists as a political opinion but is fairly uncommon

Although the devs could probably just choose "Xanadu" or even "Beijing" as Kublai's capital rather than "Dadu", considering how they choose "Xi'an" as Qin's capital (the city we know as Xi'an doesn't exist untill 6th century CE and it's 20 kms away from Qin's actual capital Xianyang).

I didn’t even know Xanadu was a real place. I always thought it a weird made up place which was unusually common in modern pop culture.

Why is Xi'an his capital then?

Because Civ likes using modern names for ancient cities with a whole ton of inconsistencies (see Ra-Kedet instead of Alexandria, the proper name for Cleopatra’s capital at the time). Xi’an is the modern ‘equivalent’ of Xianyang (it’s also the closest major city to his burial site, the mausoleum containing the terra-cotta army) just as Patna, Chandragupta Maurya’s in-game capital, is the modern ‘equivalent’ of his real capital, Pataliputra.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

I suppose her leading France is partly reflecting her rule of a region of the country, as duchess of Aquitaine in her own right. To be honest I think an Aquitaine civ like in JFD's Civ 5 mod would actually have been preferable to this dual leader thing (it is distinct enough and was de-facto independent for some time). But I've no doubt I'm in a minority on that.



And thank you. Are you saying they will hint at the content or might they actually show something?

There's no guarantee of anything, but if there is any kind of hint, it will probably be in the livestream.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I suppose her leading France is partly reflecting her rule of a region of the country, as duchess of Aquitaine in her own right. To be honest I think an Aquitaine civ like in JFD's Civ 5 mod would actually have been preferable to this dual leader thing (it is distinct enough and was de-facto independent for some time). But I've no doubt I'm in a minority on that.

That definitely is a reason and I'd at least rather her lead France than a separate Aquitaine.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

Technically, Occitan was both culturally and politically autonomous from ‘France’ as a culture, and even now there’s a considerable amount of political agitation there to become independent. Less so than, say, Catalunya, Hong Kong, but kinda liek Quebec in that it exists as a political opinion but is fairly uncommon.

I am aware of Occitanian independence movements, however given that the Occitan provinces have, for the most part, been a vassal to or part of the kingdom of France since the breakup of Francia over a milennium ago, I think they are quite comfortably French. Certainly their language and culture is closer to France proper than Spain or northern Italy, and as you observed they don't seem to be challenging French identity much.

I think it's not all that controversial to say that Occitania is arguably more French than Sicily is Italian (as a matter of historical unity) or Austria is German (as a matter of historical identity).

 

[Zaarin]

I suppose her leading France is partly reflecting her rule of a region of the country, as duchess of Aquitaine in her own right. To be honest I think an Aquitaine civ like in JFD's Civ 5 mod would actually have been preferable to this dual leader thing (it is distinct enough and was de-facto independent for some time). But I've no doubt I'm in a minority on that.

You're not alone. I would love to see Brittany and Normandy as civs.

Technically, Occitan was both culturally and politically autonomous from ‘France’ as a culture, and even now there’s a considerable amount of political agitation there to become independent. Less so than, say, Catalunya, Hong Kong, but kinda liek Quebec in that it exists as a political opinion but is fairly uncommon

It's more complicated than that. I'd say that in the Medieval period both speakers of langues d'oc and langues d'oïl were considered "French," and in a reversal of modern thought on the subject speakers of langues d'oc were probably considered more French insofar as langues d'oc were the major source of vernacular literature at the time and the northern duchies of Normandy, Burgundy, and Brittany paid little more than nominal allegiance to the French crown until the Late Middle Ages (and sometimes not even nominal).

 

[8housesofelixir]

I didn’t even know Xanadu was a real place. I always thought it a weird made up place which was unusually common in modern pop culture.

Xanadu is a corruption of it's Chinese name "Shangdu" which means "the Upper Capital", or a corruption of it's Chinese alternative name "Xiadu", "the summer capital". Xanadu="made-up place" is thanks to Coleridge's poem about his opium-inspired dream that features Kublai.

Why is Xi'an his capital then?

Like @Thenewwwguy said, the current civ city list has a whole ton of inconsistencies. Qin's capital city, Xianyang, remains today as a separate city from Xi'an - if you check the modern satellite map, the urban areas of the Xi'an and Xianyang don't touch each other, and there is even a major river between the two. Xi'an was chosen probably because Qin's most famous creation, the Terracotta Army, is near Xi'an.

Besides Xi'an, Ra-Kedet, and Patna, Korea also suffers from this anachronism. Korea's in-game capital, Gyeongju, was actually called Geumseong (金城, city of gold) during the Silla rule. It was only after Taejo of Goryeo taken the city did he renamed it Gyeongju (慶州) - the congratulatory city - to congratulate his control over Silla.

 

[Zaarin]

Xanadu="made-up place" is thanks to Coleridge's poem about his opium-inspired dream that features Kublai.

Kubla Khan is definitely his best work except maybe Christabel.

Besides Xi'an, Ra-Kedet, and Patna, Korea also suffers from this anachronism.

Ra-Kedet rather makes me laugh. Ra-Kedet was a small town on the site where Alexandria was later built--quite possibly simply the construction site for Alexandria. If they were going to make a Ptolemy the ruler of Egypt, they should have just accepted that she was a Greek-speaking Macedonian with a Greek-speaking ruling class administrating a Hellenized kingdom. Her capital was not Ra-Kedet; her capital was Alexandria. If they wanted to show off that they could research Egyptian names, they should have gone with an Egyptian ruler.

 

[cathar knight]

It's more complicated than that. I'd say that in the Medieval period both speakers of langues d'oc and langues d'oïl were considered "French," and in a reversal of modern thought on the subject speakers of langues d'oc were probably considered more French insofar as langues d'oc were the major source of vernacular literature at the time and the northern duchies of Normandy, Burgundy, and Brittany paid little more than nominal allegiance to the French crown until the Late Middle Ages (and sometimes not even nominal).

Speakers of the langues d'oc as you say correctly (because there were several languages or dialects) were definetely NOT considered French. The term French was restricted to the île-de-France region and whereabouts, the lands where the king in Paris had most of his personal demesne and loyal vassals, albeit smaller vassals. And more stuff: since the start of the 13th century Normandy was integrated into the direct royal domain when Philip II confiscated it from John Lackland, his vassal for the lands he owned in the continent. Burgundy lost much of its previous early autonomy during the High Middle Ages, and only recovered it during a century until the death of Charles the Bold. And by that time, that newly found autonomy was in the hands of a cadet branch from the French Royal House. It were in fact the Southern lands of Occitania which were a different beast, and the King in Paris had almost no authority there, as well as the Catholic Church, from the mid-12th century, despite the count of Toulouse being a catholic; his vassals were not, for the most part. It took a crusade against a contestatary form of Christianity (Catharism) and the creation of the Inquisition in Toulouse in 1233, all of this with the King of "France" hand-in-hand with the Papacy, to conquer and submit, and ultimately annex, those lands. Just some clarifications here.

 

[Thenewwwguy]

Xanadu is a corruption of it's Chinese name "Shangdu" which means "the Upper Capital", or a corruption of it's Chinese alternative name "Xiadu", "the summer capital". Xanadu="made-up place" is thanks to Coleridge's poem about his opium-inspired dream that features Kublai.

coleridge had problems re: drugs

Gyeongju, was actually called Geumseong (金城, city of gold) during the Silla rule. It was only after Taejo of Goryeo taken the city did he renamed it Gyeongju (慶州) - the congratulatory city - to congratulate his control over Silla.

this isn’t particularly tropical to this point, but anyone know why korean is romanized/transliterated to english with silent e’s? like Seoul is basically pronounced Soul, and Goryeo is pronounced Gor-yo, so it’s kinda weird how those e’s in vowel sequences don’t really have a sound attached to them.

Kubla Khan is definitely his best work except maybe Christabel.

Rime of the Ancient Mariner?

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Ra-Kedet rather makes me laugh. Ra-Kedet was a small town on the site where Alexandria was later built--quite possibly simply the construction site for Alexandria. If they were going to make a Ptolemy the ruler of Egypt, they should have just accepted that she was a Greek-speaking Macedonian with a Greek-speaking ruling class administrating a Hellenized kingdom. Her capital was not Ra-Kedet; her capital was Alexandria. If they wanted to show off that they could research Egyptian names, they should have gone with an Egyptian ruler.

I'll take Ra-Kadet if it means we get Macedon.

this isn’t particularly tropical to this point, but anyone know why korean is romanized/transliterated to english with silent e’s? like Seoul is basically pronounced Soul, and Goryeo is pronounced Gor-yo, so it’s kinda weird how those e’s in vowel sequences don’t really have a sound attached to them.

I was always unsure about the correct pronunciation of Seoul. I guess this confirms it along with the fact that there is a Korean BBQ restaurant near me opening up with the name "Seoul Food."

 

[Venceslau Pietro Pietra]

I bet that most of the portuguese speakers players only discovered that Pasargadae was a real place and not a made up name for a fantasy land in a poem with the persia dlc release.Nice to know that you anglo boys may gain a equivalent with kublai.

Oh ,i forget, firaxis devs please if it not already the capital name, change to Xanadu, historically acurrate or not, i find it very cool.

 

[Thenewwwguy]

I bet that most of the portuguese speakers players only discovered that Pasargadae was a real place and not a made up name for a fantasy land in a poem with the persia dlc release.Nice to know that you anglo boys may gain a equivalent with kublai.

Oh ,i forget, firaxis devs please if it not already the capital name, change to Xanadu, historically acurrate or not, i find it very cool.

i had no idea pasagardae had a mythical component attached to it, huh

 

[Venceslau Pietro Pietra]

i had no idea pasagardae had a mythical component attached to it, huh

Thanks to Manuel Bandeira

 

[Zaarin]

Speakers of the langues d'oc as you say correctly (because there were several languages or dialects) were definetely NOT considered French. The term French was restricted to the île-de-France region and whereabouts, the lands where the king in Paris had most of his personal demesne and loyal vassals, albeit smaller vassals. And more stuff: since the start of the 13th century Normandy was integrated into the direct royal domain when Philip II confiscated it from John Lackland, his vassal for the lands he owned in the continent. Burgundy lost much of its previous early autonomy during the High Middle Ages, and only recovered it during a century until the death of Charles the Bold. And by that time, that newly found autonomy was in the hands of a cadet branch from the French Royal House. It were in fact the Southern lands of Occitania which were a different beast, and the King in Paris had almost no authority there, as well as the Catholic Church, from the mid-12th century, despite the count of Toulouse being a catholic; his vassals were not, for the most part. It took a crusade against a contestatary form of Christianity (Catharism) and the creation of the Inquisition in Toulouse in 1233, all of this with the King of "France" hand-in-hand with the Papacy, to conquer and submit, and ultimately annex, those lands. Just some clarifications here.

Fair. Talking about nationality and ethnicity in regards to the Middle Ages is always complicated by the fact that nations didn't exist. (Also I wouldn't call Catharism a "contestatory form of Christianity"; Gnostic Christianity had been denounced as heresy since the Ecumenical Councils of the third and fourth centuries.)

Rime of the Ancient Mariner?

Kill it with nuclear fire. I seriously hate that poem with a passion.

this isn’t particularly tropical to this point, but anyone know why korean is romanized/transliterated to english with silent e’s? like Seoul is basically pronounced Soul, and Goryeo is pronounced Gor-yo, so it’s kinda weird how those e’s in vowel sequences don’t really have a sound attached to them.

Actually Korean ㅓ which is Anglicized as EO is pronounced /ʌ/, which is the sound of U in the American pronunciation of SUN or RUN. So Goryeo is pronounced /koɾjʌ/, whence "Korea." As to why that particular Anglicization was chosen, I suspect it was based on the Anglicization of /ɯ/ as EU since /ʌ/ is to /o/ as /ɯ/ is to /u/.

 

[Birch617]

I think making Eleanor leader of an Occitanian /Aquitaine civ would be interesting but higly unlikely

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I think making Eleanor leader of an Occitanian /Aquitaine civ would be interesting but higly unlikely

Well then we will need another dual leader if she becomes a triple leader.

 

[Zaarin]

Well then we will need another dual leader if she becomes a triple leader.

Just let Alexander lead half the civs in the game.