[NFP] Civilization VI: Possible New Civilizations Thread

[DogeEnricoDandolo]

*googles Ho Chi Mihn*

First, Vietnam is getting in because of the Trung sisters, for starters

Second, can we not add recent trash to the game please? "Not as bad as Stalin and Mao" shouldn't be the standard for modern leaders

You do realize there is a major difference between being controversial and being universally denounced, right? Not a single soul who has changed history in a major way does not have detractors. And by the way, maybe in your brain, a quick 10-minute googling trip is enough for a fair verdict like "modern trash" even though you literally have never heard of the person, but in all honesty, it is not. And maybe don't bend over backward too hard for a female representation even though she does not have any impact on the course of the history?

 

[pokiehl]

I really didn’t want another meme leader so I’m glad it’s not going to be the Trung sisters.

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

At this point not even Hitler is completely hated by his people... sadly. So still trash to me.

Hope putting TT was some horrible mistake. Because regardless we're missing 2 female leaders

Honestly, Trung Trac was a good leader, but she and her sister Trung Nhi's rebellion ultimately failed. Le Loi and Ho Chi Minh's rebellions, on the other hand, succeeded with more consequences for the lands in and surrounding Vietnam. So no, Trung Trac as a Great General was not a horrible mistake. If it was a mistake, it's nowhere near "horrible".

I really didn’t want another meme leader so I’m glad it’s not going to be the Trung sisters.

<<COUGH>> GANDHI <<COUGH>>

 

[8housesofelixir]

<<COUGH>> GANDHI <<COUGH>>

Chandragupta isn't bad, hope we can have Ashoka and/or Akbar I next time.

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

Chandragupta isn't bad, hope we can have Ashoka and/or Akbar I next time.

I know, I also think Chandragupta was a good choice. I never meant him, I was just aiming at Nuclear War-I mean, Gandhi.

 

[The Civs 6]

Isn't the problem that no pre-Gandhi leader can really claim to the leader of a united entity called "India"? And yeah that's the same issue with Germany - which is why Bismarck (not technically the head of the German state) is a good choice of leader.

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

Isn't the problem that no pre-Gandhi leader can really claim to the leader of a united entity called "India"?

<Bill Wurtz jingle> Time to conquer all of India!!! Er-Most of India!!!

 

[DogeEnricoDandolo]

I really didn’t want another meme leader so I’m glad it’s not going to be the Trung sisters.

An even worse excuse is to include her just because of a conception going around that there is an open female quota that needs to be filled. A person who has never heard of a quite influential and recent 20th-century figure like Ho Chi Minh is almost guaranteed to not know a thing about Trung Trac, a figure with barely any historical record, other than the fact she was a woman, and then the typical sound-bite judgment along the line of "communism - trash, woman - good" after 10 minutes of googling and probably reading the first 2 sentences of a Wikipedia entry is probably the cherry on top of just pure ignorance.

 

[The Civs 6]

An even worse excuse is to include her just because of a conception going around that there is an open female quota that needs to be filled. A person who has never heard of a quite influential and recent 20th-century figure like Ho Chi Minh is almost guaranteed to not know a thing about Trung Trac, a figure with barely any historical record, other than the fact she was a woman, and then the typical sound-bite judgment along the line of "communism - trash, woman - good" after 10 minutes of googling and probably reading the first 2 sentences of a Wikipedia entry is probably the cherry on top of just pure ignorance.

The most egregious example of this has to be the inclusion of Irene of Athens in this game. When I learned about the actual history, it just blew my mind that someone would include them in the name of "social justice".

And also Irene was, in no way shape or form, a merchant. The Byzantine empire of the time was not a particularly commercial polity as polities go, either.

 

[Henri Christophe]

Ho Chi Minh defeat the might USA in Battle, what can be more amazing than that?

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

Ho Chi Minh defeat the might USA in Battle, what can be more amazing than that?

Queen Victoria retaking America for the British Empire! Atta girl, my descendant! Pax Britannica!!

 

[leif erikson]

Moderator Action: Back to topic please.

 

[BD123]

In regards to Vietnam's leader choice, we know Trung Trac is out bc they just added her as a great general and I just don't see them swapping her out 2 months later. She wouldn't have been a bad choice, she's famous and pretty respected, and she definitely would've been a "big personality" in Civ 6 terms - and certainly it's her modern reception that would've driven her as the leader choice but I don't think that's necessarily as egregious as say France having 2.5 leaders with both Catherine and Eleanor being so-so at best.

I'm leaning they'll go with Le Loi or the guy who fended off the Mongols (I forgot his name lol) but to me Trung Trac and Le Loi both have the same problem for actual gameplay. They both led rebellions and sought to liberate the country - who succeeded and who didn't isn't really important for gameplay - and trying to represent rebellion is difficult imo. I mean the closest comparison in Civ 6 I can think of is Simon Bolivar, who is obviously remembered as a liberator and independence fighter but in game he excels at conquest and domination victory!

Now after freeing the country, Le Loi did initiate the long process of conquering and colonizing the southern portion of the country, so they could maybe have him a "March to the South" ability. But he's remembered today for rebelling successfully against the Ming, so why pick his less famous endeavor to represent? Not to mention he, nor even his dynasty, were the ones to finish the March to the South.

Ho Chi Minh I don't think is an option bc he might warrant a unnecessary negative pr mess from *overseas* Vietnamese, mainly the Vietnamese-American community. I'm Vietnamese-American myself and don't care about his inclusion or not but I've seen others in the communities get upset about such things and make a rumble over it.

 

[Henri Christophe]

Trung Trac look like great because are womans. We always need to choice Womans leaders if avaiable.

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

Trung Trac look like great because are womans. We always need to choice Womans leaders if avaiable.

That, no offense meant, is a terrible way to choose potential Civilizations and Leaders, as well as a horrible way to look at history in general. We can't look through history with a gender-biased lens, no matter if it's a lens that focuses on men or women. Maria the Mad was a leader of Portugal in Civ 5. Does that mean she was a good choice? Absolutely not!!

Edit: To make things clear, I do not oppose Trung Trac as a Leader. I think she would have made a good Leader if Firaxis hadn't already picked her as a Great General.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Ho Chi Minh I don't think is an option bc he might warrant a unnecessary negative pr mess from *overseas* Vietnamese, mainly the Vietnamese-American community. I'm Vietnamese-American myself and don't care about his inclusion or not but I've seen others in the communities get upset about such things and make a rumble over it.

This ^

Anyway I think Vietnam has a long enough history that there are many other options that they can take without it necessarily being a female leader or someone so recent.
Lei Loi from what I've seen might be the best choice.

That, no offense meant, is a terrible way to choose Civilizations and look at history in general.

Even though I agree with this statement I don't think Trung Trac would be as horrible a choice as other people make it out. Now Roxelana over Suleiman would have been egregious.

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

This ^
Even though I agree with this statement I don't think Trung Trac would be as horrible a choice as other people make it out. Now Roxelana over Suleiman would have been egregious.

No, that wasn't what I was saying. What I was saying was that we can't look at history with gender-bias in us. Trung Trac would be a good choice, I agree, but we can't choose her just because she was a woman.

 

[BD123]

I don't mind seeing more women leaders since they for me at least opened up interest in some. I remember Civ 5 had Wu Zetian and I never heard of her before so I looked her up and she was quite the historical figure. I think Trung Trac would've been in a similar style - okay as leader choice but more interesting in terms of cult of personality and how she's treated in historiography as opposed to her actual historical achievements.

That being said, I feel like picking women leaders just to pick women leaders without regards to their accomplishments or what makes them interesting historical choices in their own context just runs into the problem of reducing them to empty tokens of inclusivity... which just brings us back to the problem of reducing women's history into a secondary topic dependent on men's!! But that's once again off the topic of this particular thread lol

So yes I think Le Loi will be the choice but I think there are better choices than him and Trung Trac for gameplay purposes. Maybe they go with a Ly dynasty king, and focus on how the Ly Dynasty used Buddhism to uphold state legitimacy?

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

So yes I think Le Loi will be the choice but I think there are better choices than him and Trung Trac for gameplay purposes. Maybe they go with a Ly dynasty king, and focus on how the Ly Dynasty used Buddhism to uphold state legitimacy?

I wouldn't mind him not being in Civ 6, although I do wish if they didn't put him in as a Leader that they could make him a Great General as well.

 

[DogeEnricoDandolo]

Ho Chi Minh I don't think is an option bc he might warrant a unnecessary negative pr mess from *overseas* Vietnamese, mainly the Vietnamese-American community. I'm Vietnamese-American myself and don't care about his inclusion or not but I've seen others in the communities get upset about such things and make a rumble over it.

I did think of this, I'm Vietnamese-Canadian, but then if leaders like Kristina whose legacy is frowned upon by almost the entire modern Sweden or previous controversial leaders who is frowned upon by pretty much the entire Western world or even every time they announce an Indigenous leader, it is almost guaranteed some backlash from the own Indigenous community about their portrayal. There are even talks about how certain leaders may upset the Communist party of China, which is an unfounded fear, and guess what, even if that is true, the leader choice still goes as planned, so I'm not sure what a handful of oversea Vietnamese can do. Sure, some are still upset about what happened over 4 decades ago, and then what, what are they gonna do about that? Literally nothing, what done is done. Maybe it will end up in a few news articles that no one reads except for when they are shared on this forum, like the time Cree got announced, and then will quickly sink into oblivion.
To be fair, if Vietnam is portrayed in its Medieval time, Tran Nhan Tong seems like a more likely pairing with Kublai than Le Loi.