[NFP] Civilization VI: Possible New Civilizations Thread

[ManoftheHour333]

I must admit: I am not really up for the inclusion of Italy. Italy wasn't a thing until very recently, where the idea of a united Italy grew after the quick passage of Napoléon in the area. I could roughly say Italy started with Victor-Emmanuel II... but... this is going to be a controversial thing to say... but... Italy's history since its unification is quite "meh".
So they have to focus more on the part when it was the City-States time. And this is going to be a mess: people want a "Italy" civilization, not a "Venice" or a "Genoa" or "whatever" civilization. If Firaxis are thinking about adding Italy or related civilization in the game, I wonder how they will do it. I have my own crazy idea on how it could happen:

• Add Italy with a rather generic civilization's ability, unique unit and unit infrastructure.
• Add multiples leaders to represent the powerful city-states of the time like:
  • Florence (a Medici one, with a Cultural focus)
  • Milan (a Sforza one, with more a Military focus)
  • Venice (our loved Enrico, with more a Economic focus)
  • Rome/Vatican (with a Pope and a Religious focus).
  • And more: Naples, Genoa...
• It would be also the perfect time to add a new game mode: Leaders and Civilizations Great Switcheroo, where you can play a civilization with any leader you want.

The odd of this to even happens? Almost none. Create 4 full leaders (full animation, voice lines...) for a single civilization just to represent the diversity? At a time where France got 2.5 leaders + Gaul and feels completely unfair? But it would be the perfect time to add that long lost wish to be able to play a civilization with any leader!

Or you could say that since Catherine de Medici and Rome are in the game, Italy is already represented. What? Nobody is okay with this assertion?

Hmm then why do we have Germany? Germany was unified in 1871 and then broke up...twice. In until the 1900s, Germany wasn't unified at all...and yet they're a civ; uboats and all. Italy (Without Rome) was unified in a year earlier in 1870 and has never been featured in any way in civ beside Civ Vs Venice.

While I do agree that there were some incredible accomplishments of Italian city states and that the Renaissance era should factor into their ability, it just makes more sense to use a unified Italy to represent them. Germany in the Renaissance/medieval/industrial was extremely diverse with militaristic Prussia and religiously feverant Bohemia...and yet they are still represented as a single civ. Better yet, they seem to have abilities from the medieval (Fredrick/HRE), the Industrial (Hansas), and modern (Uboats) periods. Why can there be a cessation for Germany but not Italy? Why can't Italy have a cultural financial ability (Renaissance) in a unified Italian setting (More modern)?

And on the front of cultural/scientific innovation-it didn't stop after the country was unified! Yeah your Da Vinci's and Michelangelos were not there anymore but you had Giacomo Balla, Bruno Caruso, and countless others making incredible art and scientists/inventors like Guglielmo Marconi was redefining communication on the science front. You can't say that just because a country was known for a certain era that it's only attributes should be from that era-they often transcend centuries. There are tons of "blob civs" in VI like Arabia and India...besides size, how is Italy different? And while I agree that the city states of the medieval/renaissance wouldn't fit the civ model, a unified Italian state 100% would.

TLDR: Explain Germany then.


@Alexander's Hetaroi might be able to help out here

And losing tank-to-spear battles in real life.

Lmao so true. I'm surprised that the devs have never thought of combining an Italian Civ with a Ethiopian Civ for one hell of a scenario...

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

Lmao so true. I'm surprised that the devs have never thought of combining an Italian Civ with a Ethiopian Civ for one hell of a scenario...

And losing tank-to-spear battles in real life.

This is referenced in the Adwa Achievement.

 

[Wielki Hegemon]

.I think Austria could pull something with the coffeehouse or opera traditions of the empire to make a really cool theatre square. Maybe if they had some kind of cultural/ domination victory...almost like a mix of Pericles and Eleanor. Just spitballing but if the TS replacement is in Europe, I still think Austria makes the most sense.

What cool is exactly in this theater square? I understand it might look nice but is it enouth to put a Civ on a possible wishlist?

 

[ManoftheHour333]

What cool is exactly in this theater square? I understand it might look nice but is it enouth to put a Civ on a possible wishlist?

Well the whole point of that that idea/thread was to find the best unused/wishlist civ that could add in a second unique theatre square to the game. This was alongside the commercial hub, holy site, field cannon, cuirassier, and ironclad who also have not gotten replacements (Or 2nd replacements in terms of the districts). My biggest wishlist items are to fill out the roster on these units/districts and attach civs to them that best fit. We had a format:
"
Commercial Hub:
Theatre Square:
Holy Site:
Ironclad:
Cuirasser:
Field Cannon:
"

So yeah. Not saying it needs to be (As I said, I kinda don't want Austria in considering we have Hungary) in but if nothing else can make a decent 2nd unique TS...I would rather have Austria.

I would say personally that Austria would be the best option for unique theatre square given their cultural traditions and influence in the west. As for abilities I really have no idea...it's hard to come up with just one aspect of a civ when ideally you want synergy. But worldwide, it's hard to think of cultural centers/other things that could be TSs that could fit the bill better than Austria. As for what it would physically be...um, do we have any Austrian/Viennese people on the chat? What would you call an Austrian cultural center?

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

While I do agree that there were some incredible accomplishments of Italian city states and that the Renaissance era should factor into their ability, it just makes more sense to use a unified Italy to represent them. Germany in the Renaissance/medieval/industrial was extremely diverse with militaristic Prussia and religiously feverant Bohemia...and yet they are still represented as a single civ. Better yet, they seem to have abilities from the medieval (Fredrick/HRE), the Industrial (Hansas), and modern (Uboats) periods. Why can there be a cessation for Germany but not Italy? Why can't Italy have a cultural financial ability (Renaissance) in a unified Italian setting (More modern)?

And on the front of cultural/scientific innovation-it didn't stop after the country was unified! Yeah your Da Vinci's and Michelangelos were not there anymore but you had Giacomo Balla, Bruno Caruso, and countless others making incredible art and scientists/inventors like Guglielmo Marconi was redefining communication on the science front. You can't say that just because a country was known for a certain era that it's only attributes should be from that era-they often transcend centuries. There are tons of "blob civs" in VI like Arabia and India...besides size, how is Italy different? And while I agree that the city states of the medieval/renaissance wouldn't fit the civ model, a unified Italian state 100% would.

Ideally even if I'd want a Cosimo or Lorenzo de Medici lead Florence, it might be hard to pull off even though we have separate Athens and Sparta lead Greek civ, but everyone is fine with that.
The best of both worlds would probably be to have Victor Emmanuel II leading Italy, who can use Turin as his capital, with an ability Risorgimento that deals with absorbing city-states into his civilization through either warfare or peaceful means. You can also keep their envoys while at war and maybe suzerain bonuses if you conquer them.
His agenda would deal with city-state actions. He will dislike you if you avoid city-states all together but like civilizations that deal with city-state diplomacy or warfare.

The Civ ability can focus on it's past called the Birthplace of the Renaissance. I thought it would be cool if each city you founded, other than your capital, could act kind of like a "city-state" and give that city a bonus depending on the type of specialty district it constructs first. For example if the campus is the first specialty district built in a city then that university would yield extra science.
For the TS it would be extra culture art/archaeological museum, IZ extra production for the workshop, CH extra gold for the bank, Harbor extra production for the shipyard producing naval units, Encampment extra production for the armory producing land units, and HS extra faith for the worship building?

The UU can either be Industrial (Alpini?) or Medieval (Condotierri)

They can get a workshop UB that grants culture as well as GWAM points and Great Scientist points in addition to regular workshop bonuses, or an Opera House that grants more slots of music and built earlier than a Broadcast Center it replaces.

Well the whole point of that that idea/thread was to find the best unused/wishlist civ that could add in a second unique theatre square to the game. This was alongside the commercial hub, holy site, field cannon, cuirassier, and ironclad who also have not gotten replacements (Or 2nd replacements in terms of the districts). My biggest wishlist items are to fill out the roster on these units/districts and attach civs to them that best fit. We had a format:
"
Commercial Hub:
Theatre Square:
Holy Site:
Ironclad:
Cuirasser:
Field Cannon:
"

So yeah. Not saying it needs to be (As I said, I kinda don't want Austria in considering we have Hungary) in but if nothing else can make a decent 2nd unique TS...I would rather have Austria.

I would say personally that Austria would be the best option for unique theatre square given their cultural traditions and influence in the west. As for abilities I really have no idea...it's hard to come up with just one aspect of a civ when ideally you want synergy. But worldwide, it's hard to think of cultural centers/other things that could be TSs that could fit the bill better than Austria. As for what it would physically be...um, do we have any Austrian/Viennese people on the chat? What would you call an Austrian cultural center?

Technically the Hwacha is a field cannon replacement, it just comes an era earlier.
https://civilization.fandom.com/wiki/Hwacha_(Civ6)

As for Austria, a Theater Square replacement would be perfect. I'd call it Wiener Klassik (First Vienesse School). It might not be an actual physical place but Vienna is where all the classical era composers met and why Vienna was the musical capital for Europe.
You're right that Hungary has taken some of Austria's niche but in my mind Maria Theresa as a leader is worth it.

 

[Navelgazer]

When people are talking about "Italy' here though, we tend to be talking about Renaissance pre-unification Italy, hence discussions about whether it'd be best represented by Venice, Florence, the Papal States, etc. There's a lot of meat on those bones for a game like this.

 

[The Kingmaker]

When people are talking about "Italy' here though, we tend to be talking about Renaissance pre-unification Italy, hence discussions about whether it'd be best represented by Venice, Florence, the Papal States, etc. There's a lot of meat on those bones for a game like this.

Yeah, you don’t have to be a unified nation-state to be considered a civilization. There were Italians long before modern Italy.

 

[Republic of San Montuoso]

Indeed. I'd be happy to see Maria Theresa back, but I'd still really love to see Bohemia as a dark horse in Civ7. The Czech lands have a long and fascinating history, and I think Kingdom Come: Deliverance has gotten them some more attention from the general public (I won't deny it was what originally brought Bohemia to my attention).

Unique Ability: Prague Defenestration. Target spy mission Neutralize Governor are easier against you

TLDR: Explain Germany then.

While Germany was, indeed, only unified tardively, there was some sort of political unity. The HRE was a thing and, while it was divided between more than 300 principalities, cities, abbeys and stuff, they still shared an Emperor, a culture, stuff like that. Italy never had this kind of unification before the Risorgimento. Each city-State, kingdom or principality was fiercely independant from one another, and there even didn't considered themselves close to one another like Greece city-States that, despite being independant, still considered themselves part of the Hellenic culture against the "barbarians". Renaissance Italy never had something akin to the Olympian Games. That's why, for me, having a unified pre-industrial Italy is harder to imagine that a unified Greece or Germany.

But it can be and I wish for it though.

 

[Lord Lakely]

Yeah, you don’t have to be a unified nation-state to be considered a civilization. There were Italians long before modern Italy.

The Greek civ has been traditionally called "Greece" as well, despite being represented as "Athens" and "Sparta" in Civ 6, and as Macedon in all other installments.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

When people are talking about "Italy' here though, we tend to be talking about Renaissance pre-unification Italy, hence discussions about whether it'd be best represented by Venice, Florence, the Papal States, etc. There's a lot of meat on those bones for a game like this.

Yeah, you don’t have to be a unified nation-state to be considered a civilization. There were Italians long before modern Italy.

I agree with both those points, but even here on these forums some people don't and will always expect Venice, Florence, Genoa to be possible different civilizations.

Of course I'd like a Florence lead Italy, such as Cosimo or Lorenzo de'Medici, but I am open to the idea of a post-unification leader as long as most of it's other attributes like civ ability and unique infrastructure are Medieval/Renaissance inspired.

 

[Wielki Hegemon]

Well the whole point of that that idea/thread was to find the best unused/wishlist civ that could add in a second unique theatre square to the game. This was alongside the commercial hub, holy site, field cannon, cuirassier, and ironclad who also have not gotten replacements (Or 2nd replacements in terms of the districts). My biggest wishlist items are to fill out the roster on these units/districts and attach civs to them that best fit. We had a format:
"
Commercial Hub:
Theatre Square:
Holy Site:
Ironclad:
Cuirasser:
Field Cannon:
"

So yeah. Not saying it needs to be (As I said, I kinda don't want Austria in considering we have Hungary) in but if nothing else can make a decent 2nd unique TS...I would rather have Austria.

I would say personally that Austria would be the best option for unique theatre square given their cultural traditions and influence in the west. As for abilities I really have no idea...it's hard to come up with just one aspect of a civ when ideally you want synergy. But worldwide, it's hard to think of cultural centers/other things that could be TSs that could fit the bill better than Austria. As for what it would physically be...um, do we have any Austrian/Viennese people on the chat? What would you call an Austrian cultural center?

Understand. But my hype-o-meter pointer is still vibrating around "Meh"
I don't think this is a good approach to find interesting Civ. unless it's just for fun, than ok

Yeah, you don’t have to be a unified nation-state to be considered a civilization. There were Italians long before modern Italy.

Hmm, I think they were Venetians, Tuscan, Genoese etc. "Italian" as one Nation is a XIX Century thing

 

[LastSword]

Hmm, I think they were Venetians, Tuscan, Genoese etc. "Italian" as one Nation is a XIX Century thing

I am afraid you completely misread The Kingmaker. He clearly stated that he didn't mean unified nation, but people. Italians as residents of Italy/Italia. Same case as... who would guess... germans as residents of germany instead <instert X sub-german states>.



I don't understand all this hate on Italy. Switching sides? Germany basically lost two wars or worse, that's all.

I think it is clear why we have Germany blobstrosity each iteration, it is probably the most recognizable foreign country (alongside Russia and nowadays China) for average American ("yo, that's nAzI"). It is a wasted slot (both civ5/6 designs... bleh) on crowded continent.
Italy as an european civ is unfortunately additionally handicapped by TSL reasons.
I wouldn't mind Italian blob every 2nd iteration. Venice treatment was bad.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Understand. But my hype-o-meter pointer is still vibrating around "Meh"
I don't think this is a good approach to find interesting Civ. unless it's just for fun, than ok

Can this change your mind?
Maria Theresa Leader Ability: Royal Marriage- May spend extra gold to send a Royal Children to another leader you have an alliance with. This gives you more diplomatic access plus extra diplo favor, or culture, per turn for both you and your ally.

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

Yeah, you don’t have to be a unified nation-state to be considered a civilization. There were Italians long before modern Italy.

Indeed. Examples are the Greeks, Mayans, Scythians, India, etc.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Indeed. Examples are the Greeks, Mayans, Scythians, India, etc.

Not to mention one of the first cradle of civilizations, Sumer, were a collection of city-states.

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

Not to mention one of the first cradle of civilizations, Sumer, were a collection of city-states.

Korea as well. The Three Kingdoms-wait... No, Liu Bei, I didn't mean those Three Kingdoms, go away, please. Goguryeo, Baekje, and Silla are what I mean, Liu.

 

[notNamed]

Hrad is Bohemian for castle or fort, so it could work. Wagenburg is the appropriate term for a War Wagon, though, if it were to replace the Knight, it should require Gunpowder and not Iron. Jan Zizka, Sigismund, and Charles IV are all Bohemian Leaders I can think of that have enough merits to warrant their inclusion in the game.

Hrad implies a building of some sort, so it wouldn't work in this context. IRL there wasn't a special name for a singular wagon. They simply called them "tábor" or "leženie obkolesené vozy" (camp surrounded with wagons). The wagons themselves were in no way special nor had a name, the tactic of forming a mobile barricade did. Same as in all the other languages. Wagenburg (wagon fort, not a "war wagon"), laager (camp), gulyay gorod (moving fort).
As far as leaders go, Charles IV is obviously the first choice. T.G.Masaryk is the second-in-line if you don't want to write it off as "Hussites-the civ". Žižka is more of a great general material himself.

 

[The Kingmaker]

I am afraid you completely misread The Kingmaker. He clearly stated that he didn't mean unified nation, but people. Italians as residents of Italy/Italia. Same case as... who would guess... germans as residents of germany instead <instert X sub-german states>.

Yes, indeed.

We have plenty of civs in the game that were a collection of city-states—rival, warring city-states, even.

Italy is no different in that respect. The multiple leader feature is clearly a good option for implementing different iterations of the civ, just like was done with Greece’s Athens and Sparta divide.

Leaders from Florence, Milan and Venice would all be popular options, but a case could be made for Genoa, Naples and many others.

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

Hrad implies a building of some sort, so it wouldn't work in this context. IRL there wasn't a special name for a singular wagon. They simply called them "tábor" or "leženie obkolesené vozy" (camp surrounded with wagons). The wagons themselves were in no way special nor had a name, the tactic of forming a mobile barricade did. Same as in all the other languages. Wagenburg (wagon fort, not a "war wagon"), laager (camp), gulyay gorod (moving fort).
As far as leaders go, Charles IV is obviously the first choice. T.G.Masaryk is the second-in-line if you don't want to write it off as "Hussites-the civ". Žižka is more of a great general material himself.

Alright, I stand corrected. Though, T.G. Masaryk seems more of a modern Czech Civ Leader than a Bohemia.

Yes, indeed.

We have plenty of civs in the game that were a collection of city-states—rival, warring city-states, even.

Italy is no different in that respect. The multiple leader feature is clearly a good option for implementing different iterations of the civ, just like was done with Greece’s Athens and Sparta divide.

Leaders from Florence, Milan and Venice would all be popular options, but a case could be made for Genoa, Naples and many others.

Greece stands out the most as an example of this.

 

[Kimiimaro]

I wouldn't mind Austria if just for Maria Theresa, but another European candidate for a unique TS would be Bohemia. I'm not sure what to call it (any advice, @Kimiimaro?), but Bohemia is famous for its architecture and it seems like a good fit.

No idea here for a name of a potential TS, unfortunately

Jan Zizka, Sigismund, and Charles IV are all Bohemian Leaders I can think of that have enough merits to warrant their inclusion in the game.

I can expand the list with the recommendations a bit.

The Iron and Golden King, Ottokar II. Settler of cities and founder of castles left and right, a swift diplomat and a good military leader that managed gather great amounts of titles and lands, including nearly all of Austria. Indeed, under his reign, the Kingdom of Bohemia stretched all the way to the Adriatic sea.

His successor Wenceslaus II, less of a fighter and more of a diplomat, gaining the crown of Poland for himself and crown of Hungary for his son as well. This Přemyslid central European hegemony got only ended as Wenceslaus II died in his 30s due to illness and his heir, Wenceslaus III, got assassinated in Olomouc in the age of 16. He was a successful administrator as well, utilising the finding of silver in Kutná Hora to establish one of the most stable and traded currencies of the time - the Prague Groschen. Ius Regale Montanorum, the mining act he issued with the help of lawyers invited from Italy, was one of the most advanced mining laws of the time, and could make a nice ability, I suppose.

A post-Hussite Wars King, George of Poděbrady - a King who managed to peacefully and tolerantly rule over a Kingdom divided between Hussites and Catholics who were killing each other mere decades ago, and an ambitious diplomat as well - he had a vision of Europe united and cooperating to defend against the Ottoman threat.

To lesser extend, I also point at John, the father of Charles IV. The first King of Bohemia to come from the House of Luxembourg. A brave fighter, charging into Battle of Crécy even after losing sight. He managed to bring much fame and prestige to the Kingdom through his valiant war campaigns, as well as great disrepair and near bankruptcy .