[NFP] Civilization VI: Possible New Civilizations Thread

[Kimiimaro]

I thought all the Western orchestration in Civ6 was done with the Prague Philharmonic? I could be wrong. I think @Kimiimaro and I are the only ones actually hoping for a Bohemian civ (though I want it more as a replacement for Poland in Civ7).

Yeah, they are doing most (all?) industrial themes with Prague Filmharmonic Orchestra. They also used Martinů Voices, a Czech choir, to record the sung Yelkenler Biçilecek part of the Ottoman industrial/atomic theme.

 

[Zaarin]

As for the D- students, everyone knows Pocahontas thanks to Disney.

"Blond-haired Prince Charming Totally-Not-a-Scalawag John Smith leads the Powhatan in Walt Disney's Civilization VI..." I guess we already have Aurora leading the French/English and Maui leading the Maori, so why not?

 

[Thenewwwguy]

Chief Joseph of the Nez Perce would be mine (especially since the Nez Perce were the premier horse breeders of the region, being the originators of the Appaloosa horse), but Geronimo would have the name-recognition factor.

I’d love the Nez Perce in game (Oregon represent!!)

I would ordinarily expect name recognition to be of prime consideration when selecting a leader. I can’t speak to whether Poundmaker is a household name in Canada though.

I might anticipate that any subsequent Native American selections could well be influenced by the leader’s name recognition.

Without advocating for any of these specifically, these are the main “textbook” Native Americans that most Americans have heard of, at least in school:

Sitting Bull
Crazy Horse
Red Cloud
Sacagawea
Hiawatha
Tecumseh
Sequoyah
Chief Joseph
Geronimo
Powhatan
Pocahontas
Samoset
Squanto

Some may also know of Pontiac, Joseph Brant, Black Hawk, Pocatello and Po’pay, if they are more well-read.

Chief Seattle of the Salish is fairly well-known as well, and I think, in-general, the noteriety of the nation is question is much more important in my mind.

I thought all the Western orchestration in Civ6 was done with the Prague Philharmonic? I could be wrong. I think @Kimiimaro and I are the only ones actually hoping for a Bohemian civ (though I want it more as a replacement for Poland in Civ7).

Jadwiga was such a good choice for a leader, as was Casimir. I’d be really sad to see Civ 7 exclude Poland.

Has anyone mentioned Switzerland yet? They have a very unique history although I can't think of a standout leader for them.

Unique Unit - Swiss Pikemen. High production. More HP than standard pikeman. Starts with chokepoint promotion.
Civ bonus - % bonus related to not being at war. Bonuses associated with adjacency to mountain tiles.
Unique building - Swiss bank. +1 gold for each civ you have an embassy with.

Dufour makes a lot of sense for me, as he led the Swiss during the Sonderbund War. I’d rather use a mountain village for the unique improvement, and see a diplomat/peace keeper or red cross as their unique unit. I’ve made a mock up design, maybe when i’m on my computer i’ll link the pic here if you’re interested.


Going back to Natives, my top 3 choices would be the Tlingit, Salish and Navajo in that order, followed by the Nez Perce or Chinook and the Iroquois, Cherokee and Comanche/Sioux/Shoshone

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I might anticipate that any subsequent Native American selections could well be influenced by the leader’s name recognition.

Without advocating for any of these specifically, these are the main “textbook” Native Americans that most Americans have heard of, at least in school:

Sitting Bull
Crazy Horse
Red Cloud
Sacagawea
Hiawatha
Tecumseh
Sequoyah
Chief Joseph
Geronimo
Powhatan
Pocahontas
Samoset
Squanto

Some may also know of Pontiac, Joseph Brant, Black Hawk, Pocatello and Po’pay, if they are more well-read.

I'm sure Firaxis might still go out of the box. They were apparently going to go with Pope for the Pueblo, and then had to go with Pocatello.

Anyway, everybody that went through my school knew who Geronimo was, or should have at least. We had a statue of him.

"Blond-haired Prince Charming Totally-Not-a-Scalawag John Smith leads the Powhatan in Walt Disney's Civilization VI..." I guess we already have Aurora leading the French/English and Maui leading the Maori, so why not?

You really must want your dream Civ really bad.

 

[The Kingmaker]

I doubt most Americans would be able to tell you who the Salish even were, their historical importance notwithstanding.

Depending on regional familiarities, we’re pretty limited in universal public knowledge to Iroquois, Sioux, Cherokee, Navajo and Apache. Some people will know of Cheyenne, Shoshone, Blackfoot, Comanche, Seminole, Pueblo, Shawnee, Pawnee and so forth. Especially those that have sports teams named after them.

"Blond-haired Prince Charming Totally-Not-a-Scalawag John Smith leads the Powhatan in Walt Disney's Civilization VI..." I guess we already have Aurora leading the French/English and Maui leading the Maori, so why not?

I feel like Gilgamesh was probably inspired by the Rock too.

 

[Thenewwwguy]

I doubt most Americans would be able to tell you who the Salish even were, their historical importance notwithstanding.

Depending on regional familiarities, we’re pretty limited in universal public knowledge to Iroquois, Sioux, Cherokee, Navajo and Apache. Some people will know of Cheyenne, Shoshone, Blackfoot, Comanche, Seminole, Pueblo, Shawnee, Pawnee and so forth. Especially those that have sports teams named after them.

Civ has always been about expanding people’s knowledge of world cultures and peoples rather than staying within the confines of well known ones, especially in the past 3 games.

While the Salish may not be well known outside of the PNW, Chief Seattle is nonetheless a good pick because of his namesake city, which would make him an intriguing choice for many people who are unfamiliar, and would make them curious.

I refuse to believe that after adding the Cree and Mapuche and using Lady Six Sky rather than Pacal, Firaxis are limiting themselves to well known native leaders and civs

 

[The Kingmaker]

Civ has always been about expanding people’s knowledge of world cultures and peoples rather than staying within the confines of well known ones, especially in the past 3 games.

While the Salish may not be well known outside of the PNW, Chief Seattle is nonetheless a good pick because of his namesake city, which would make him an intriguing choice for many people who are unfamiliar, and would make them curious.

I refuse to believe that after adding the Cree and Mapuche and using Lady Six Sky rather than Pacal, Firaxis are limiting themselves to well known native leaders and civs

Their motto has always been 1/3 old, 1/3 improved, 1/3 new.

 

[Thenewwwguy]

Their motto has always been 1/3 old, 1/3 improved, 1/3 new.

point being? that specifically relates to game mechanics.

 

[Zaarin]

Jadwiga was such a good choice for a leader, as was Casimir. I’d be really sad to see Civ 7 exclude Poland.

I don't mean it as any slight against Poland. I'd just be surprised to see both Poland and Bohemia, and I'd like to see Bohemia have its day in the sun. It's got a really interesting history and a handful of good leader choices. Maybe not as leader, but I'd love to see them incorporate Hus and Hussitism in some manner.

You really must want your dream Civ really bad.

Except it's Chief Powhatan I want, not the Powhatan civ.

I feel like Gilgamesh was probably inspired by the Rock too.

So he's leading two civs then. I'm not going to be able to unsee that the next time Gilgamesh and Kupe are in my game.

 

[PhilBowles]

Well, those are the ones mentioned in the grade school textbooks. Not everyone got As on their history tests, I’m sure.

You could probably reduce it to just Pocahontas, Hiawatha, Geronimo, Squanto, Sacagawea, Sitting Bull and Crazy Horse for the B+ students.

As for the D- students, everyone still knows Pocahontas thanks to Disney. They should also know Sacagawea since she was on the gold dollar coins, but who knows?

America doesn't have a national curriculum - my understanding is that different states use different textbooks, hence all the fuss about science textbooks in fundamentalist states that exclude or downplay evolution.

I'd hope that Tecumseh is well-known if only because a famous American general was named after him (his middle name, anyway). I'm just not sure whether the Shawnee are an especially likely tribe for Firaxis to use.

 

[Zaarin]

I'd hope that Tecumseh is well-known if only because a famous American general was named after him (his middle name, anyway). I'm just not sure whether the Shawnee are an especially likely tribe for Firaxis to use.

If the Shawnee were included, they would be in for Tecumseh--just like "Macedon" is really just "Alexander" and "Sumeria" is really just "Gilgamesh." I suggested a double pack with Shawnee/Tecumseh and Choctaw/Pushmataha since the two were rivals and represented two different responses/approaches to the encroachment of white Americans--Tecumseh representing nativism and Pushmataha adaptation.

 

[Thenewwwguy]

If the Shawnee were included, they would be in for Tecumseh--just like "Macedon" is really just "Alexander" and "Sumeria" is really just "Gilgamesh." I suggested a double pack with Shawnee/Tecumseh and Choctaw/Pushmataha since the two were rivals and represented two different responses/approaches to the encroachment of white Americans--Tecumseh representing nativism and Pushmataha adaptation.

Tecumseh would be very interesting, for sure

I like the idea of him more because he supported maintaining their own culture, as you mentioned, and i think that a leader who supported that would be far more interesting

 

[PhoenicianGold]

"Blond-haired Prince Charming Totally-Not-a-Scalawag John Smith leads the Powhatan in Walt Disney's Civilization VI..." I guess we already have Aurora leading the French/English and Maui leading the Maori, so why not?

Elsa leads the Saami. Aladdin leads the Mughals. Ariel leads Jamaica.

So this is a map created by u/DerPhilstift on reddit. I think it's a really good representation of large cultural gaps on the map. The five "big" areas they noted that could be filled are in red:

* Western America (vaguely covering the Shoshone, Sioux, Navajo, Apache, Comanche regions, could also include the Tlingit/Salish/Haida).
* Western Africa (Morocco/Berbers)
* The Swahili Coast (Swahili/Oman)
* Burma (BURMA!!!)
* Vietnam (a bit smushed in there but we all know it's a highly requested civ)

(Other large regions that were not highlighted include were the sub-arctic civs like Sibera/Inuit/Saami which although cool would be mechanically stretching to fit the game; the Philippines which is really hard to argue for as an "empire" and is in the Spanish city list and would crowd out Vietnam, and Kanem-Bornu, which I think nobody disputes should be more than the city-state it already is. Also, the user forgot to fill in New Zealand for the Maori.)

For the most part I think these five regions represent the best spots for to be filled by large, influential cultures and I feel the game would feel a little less than complete if we had Canada and the Cree but no Morocco or Burma.

I'm mostly including this to illustrate that, by and large, VI has been concerned with "gap-filling." Just look how cleanly they filled out most of South America with four civs (adding a whopping two new civs to the region). They also added two new civs to North America to fill out the Canadian provinces, making a very large, clear space that wants to be filled in the Western U.S. America, aside from the Western U.S., has been pointedly "filled out" with civs and city-states.

It is looking at maps elegantly puzzle-pieced together like South America that make me look at Africa and think "why wouldn't they give us a Morocco/Berber and Oman/Swahili civ? Just look at all that space, all that culture without representation." If the devs saw fit to go out of their way to include the Mapuche and the Cree where Colombia and Canada would have been accepted as "enough," just to fill out empty regions of America, why can't Africa benefit from the same philosophy? It's not like Africa poses the same development problems as Siberia; in fact one could absolutely argue that the Swahili and Berbers had even stronger infrastructure and unified identity than the Cree or Mapuche. Both were arguably the core of what later developed into the Omani and west Arabian empires. I really just don't see the point of VI adopting the sort of design philosophy that has given us an America that looks like this without also completing Africa.

And it is especially looking at South America, so chocked full of representation with four civs and three city-states, that makes me wonder why we have only Khmer and no city-states in mainland SE Asia. No Burma. No Vietnam. No Bangkok. Not even Kuala Lumpur or Manila. Yes, I know we have Indonesia and Bandar Brunei/Nan Madol, but I don't think anyone could argue that these are adequate substitutes for some very large, enduring, influential empires that have yet to appear in any form outside of the Path to Nirvana scenario. It really is baffling to me why this part of the map has remained so empty in a game that, with respect to nearly every other region of the world, is determined to represent every major empire and kingdom with at least a city-state.

These are two major areas that make me think that NFP couldn't possibly fill out by itself. I have a strong suspicion we will see further content after NFP if development isn't pulled completely.

 

[Thenewwwguy]

wait wait wait wait. Ok, first of all, the Philippines is just as worthy as some of the existing civs to be in civ, lol. They’d be mechanically really interesting and have a number of historical options to pick.

There is, arguably, a central west and a north west gap in NA. Navajo + Tlingit/Salish/Nez Perce would fill this best. I totally agree with the need for another African civ, and Swahili or Oman fixes the largest gap. Seeing the mahgreb filled out would be a bonus but imo, less of a concern.

Sapmi isn’t a stretch, imo, and is the only ‘snow civ’ option that would have settlements large enough to consider a civ.

If we’re really filling out holes, i’d go with the following 5 civs to flesh the map out:

Navajo, Salish/Tlingit, Philippines, Swahili/Maasai (would actually be pretty interesting, i don’t know if they classify as a ‘civ’ though, they do have agriculture and settlements, but not a unified history or any leader who comes to mind), Berbers

We obviously know this won’t happen though, with 3 total african civs seeming fairly unlikely.

The best we can hope for is

Navajo, Tlingit, Portugal/Byzantines, Vietnam, Oman/Timurids/Philippines

 

[The Kingmaker]

I’d assert that the central Asian “‘Stans” are also underrepresented. Sure we have the Mongols and Scythians, who tore through there like wildfire, but that doesn’t fully represent the region.

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

The map feels pretty arbitary, like Finland being a part of Sweden when no reference to it being made, unlike the Civ V version and having for example Ottomans representing the balkans feels a bit controversial. Some like Mongolia look like somebody simply filled a large empty area just to make it look not empty.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

I’d assert that the central Asian “‘Stans” are also underrepresented. Sure we have the Mongols and Scythians, who tore through there like wildfire, but that doesn’t fully represent the region.

I would also agree with this. We have Lahore and Kabul, but I think the Timurids would conveniently represent Uzbekistan, Afghanistan, and Pakistan.

I mostly avoided talking about them though because that wasn't the focus of the image nor my commentary. If the sole goal is "map-filling," that map argues that Persia is enough (even though I agree that a "stan" civ would make that region feel complete). I'm fine with ignoring the semi-filled regions of the world for purposes of illustrating out how underdeveloped Africa and especially Southeast Asia seem. If that also makes a good case for civs like the Timurids and Bulgaria, that's awesome, but those aren't the regions that are pretty clearly empty at a glance.

The map feels pretty arbitary, like Finland being a part of Sweden when no reference to it being made, unlike the Civ V version and having for example Ottomans representing the balkans feels a bit controversial. Some like Mongolia look like somebody simply filled a large empty area just to make it look not empty.

It's not a perfect map, I agree. But it's accurate enough for its purposes. I also don't like that the Ottomans are repping the Balkans, in part because Bulgaria at its height would slide perfectly into that space between Hungary and Turkey. A great example for illustrating the same "map-filling" seen in South America, but I didn't feel the need to address it because Africa and Southeast Asia are just much better examples to work with.

 

[TeddyMain]

I guess we already have Aurora leading the French/English and Maui leading the Maori, so why not?

*Settles his first city 5 tiles away from your capital*

"HEY, WHAT CAN I SAY EXCEPT "YOU'RE WELCOME!"'

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

* Western America (vaguely covering the Shoshone, Sioux, Navajo, Apache, Comanche regions, could also include the Tlingit/Salish/Haida).

I agree with this 100%.

* Western Africa (Morocco/Berbers)

I'd say it's possible as it was done before. ​

* Burma (BURMA!!!)
* Vietnam (a bit smushed in there but we all know it's a highly requested civ)

I'd be surprised if some Civ from SE Asia doesn't make it in after nothing from East Asia in GS. And yes SEA is the one with the gaps.

* The Swahili Coast (Swahili/Oman)

I'm not so sure about this gap being filled compared to the others. At least with Ethiopia we have something close to the Eastern coast of Africa. Plus Zanzibar has such a unique bonus I don't know where else that would go.
Then again Mozambique would be filled within the Portuguese Empire.

 

[Neirai]

Some may also know of Pontiac, Joseph Brant, Black Hawk, Pocatello and Po’pay, if they are more well-read.

Ironically Pontiac was once known as "The most famous Indian".