[NFP] Civilization VI: Possible New Civilizations Thread

[Grand-Admiral Thrawn]

While Persian isn’t the demonym for Iran, neither is Aryan; the proper term is Iranian

 

[Kupe Navigator]

This is an enlightment quote, and is said few years before the fall of West Rome.
Thanks to Napoleon, the Enlightment Emperor of Europe.

HRE NEVER controlled Rome nor did it's people saw themselves as Romans.

 

[Thenewwwguy]

While Persian isn’t the demonym for Iran, neither is Aryan; the proper term is Iranian

the key distinction is Iranian is a national identifier while persian is an ethnic one, and iranic is a language one

Aryan is an outdated anthropological term referring to the Indo-European people

 

[Grand-Admiral Thrawn]

This is an enlightment quote, and is said few years before the fall of West Rome.
Thanks to Napoleon, the Enlightment Emperor of Europe.

The Fall of Rome was around 400s-500s; the enlightenment was around 1600s-1700s

 

[Henri Christophe]

regardless of what the HRE thought (being a successor to rome), it wasn’t true

regardless of what Timur thought (being a descendant of Genghis Khan), it wasn’t true

History is not decided by opinions, but rather by fact.

What is a fact?
Why European understanding about Mongol Empire can be a fact but a Mongol understanding about what is the Mongol Empire wasn't true.

If you find any source saying Akbar don't think about him self as Mongol Empire, I will agree with you, but, for me, European Scholars can't be used as source of knowledge to abroad nations.

 

[Kupe Navigator]

What is a fact?
Why European understanding about Mongol Empire can be a fact but a Mongol understanding about what is the Mongol Empire wasn't true.

If you find any source saying Akbar don't think about him self as Mongol Empire, I will agree with you, but, for me, European Scholars can't be used as source of knowledge to abroad nations.

I think most indian scholars think that Arkbar is their emperor and part of their history not Mongol history.

 

[Grand-Admiral Thrawn]

What is a fact?
Why European understanding about Mongol Empire can be a fact but a Mongol understanding about what is the Mongol Empire wasn't true.

If you find any source saying Akbar don't think about him self as Mongol Empire, I will agree with you, but, for me, European Scholars can't be used as source of knowledge to abroad nations.

Just because Akbar thought of himself as mongol (idk if he did) doesn’t make it true

look up pictures of the mongol and Mughal empires, they barely intersect

 

[Kupe Navigator]

Just because Akbar thought of himself as mongol (idk if he did) doesn’t make it true

look up pictures of the mongol and Mughal empires, they barely intersect

That is like saying Queen Elizabeth 1 of England can be queen of france because she still had that in her formal title.

 

[Henri Christophe]

The Fall of Rome was around 400s-500s; the enlightenment was around 1600s-1700s

I love this thema, WHEN WAS THE FALL OF ROME!

First we have Odoacro who indeed give the Enlightment-European Understanding of the Fall of Rome.
But we have Charles Magne who re-birth the West-Roman Empire
And houw about East -Roman Empire who just fall by the Turkish Empire?
Suleiman should say he is the Romam Empire by conquer right, that mean the Turkish-Roman Empire just fall in the First World War.
At same time Ivan the Terrible will say he is the Roman Emperor, because just he follow the Roman True Religion "Orthodoxy"
The Rome-Slavic Empire just fall 1917 because COMMUNISM!
And the Holly Roman Empire ruled by the Habsburgo family who was destroyed by Napoleon.

And how about Mussolini, he also claim be Rome Emperor and conquer Ethiopia.

I guess the last fall of Rome was 1945. But it falls a lot of time in History.

 

[Thenewwwguy]

What is a fact?
Why European understanding about Mongol Empire can be a fact but a Mongol understanding about what is the Mongol Empire wasn't true.

If you find any source saying Akbar don't think about him self as Mongol Empire, I will agree with you, but, for me, European Scholars can't be used as source of knowledge to abroad nations.

Indian records themselves write about Akbar as the emperor of the Mughals, emperor of Agra, of Lahore, of the Persian people, but nowhere did anyone call him an emperor of the Mongols

The issue here is that you’re making statements that are simply and completely untrue or pseudohistorical under the pretense of being distrustful of european historical writings (which don’t even apply here???) is very problematic. This is how outlandish statements like the hungarians being descended from sumerians start...

Akbar wasn’t a mongol.
No one here is arguing from a european perspective. We’re arguing from the perspective of known history. In the modern age, our historical understandings are more colored by 1st person, eyewitness statements than anything else

modern historians have gone a long way to try to remove regional biases from what they know about historical accounts, and as a result, today, we derive most of our knowledge of historical events and people from the people who were around them rather than observers.

 

[Thenewwwguy]

I love this thema, WHEN WAS THE FALL OF ROME!

First we have Odoacro who indeed give the Enlightment-European Understanding of the Fall of Rome.
But we have Charles Magne who re-birth the West-Roman Empire
And houw about East -Roman Empire who just fall by the Turkish Empire?
Suleiman should say he is the Romam Empire by conquer right, that mean the Turkish-Roman Empire just fall in the First World War.
At same time Ivan the Terrible will say he is the Roman Emperor, because just he follow the Roman True Religion "Orthodoxy"
The Rome-Slavic Empire just fall 1917 because COMMUNISM!
And the Holly Roman Empire ruled by the Habsburgo family who was destroyed by Napoleon.

And how about Mussolini, he also claim be Rome Emperor and conquer Ethiopia.

I guess the last fall of Rome was 1945. But it fall a lot of time in History.

this is our point. Just because someone called themselves ‘rome’ doesn’t mean they were roman. Charlemagne called himself the king of rome just to make himself look more powerful. He was the HRE emperor and King of the Franks, but he wasn’t a king of rome at all.

 

[Kupe Navigator]

I love this thema, WHEN WAS THE FALL OF ROME!

First we have Odoacro who indeed give the Enlightment-European Understanding of the Fall of Rome.
But we have Charles Magne who re-birth the West-Roman Empire
And houw about East -Roman Empire who just fall by the Turkish Empire?
Suleiman should say he is the Romam Empire by conquer right, that mean the Turkish-Roman Empire just fall in the First World War.
At same time Ivan the Terrible will say he is the Roman Emperor, because just he follow the Roman True Religion "Orthodoxy"
The Rome-Slavic Empire just fall 1917 because COMMUNISM!
And the Holly Roman Empire ruled by the Habsburgo family who was destroyed by Napoleon.

And how about Mussolini, he also claim be Rome Emperor and conquer Ethiopia.

I guess the last fall of Rome was 1945. But it fall a lot of time in History.

... Italy=/=rome. It is desendent of Rome but not Rome. Next you will say Ottoman empire is still alive because Turkey is still a thing?

 

[Thenewwwguy]

I think most indian scholars think that Arkbar is their emperor and part of their history not Mongol history.

to be fair, general indian sentiment regarding the mughals is mixed but leans negatively. Most indians today view them as invaders from Persia and the turkic countries, hence the negative lean, but important to the evolution of indian architecture and culture.

 

[Grand-Admiral Thrawn]

I love this thema, WHEN WAS THE FALL OF ROME!

First we have Odoacro who indeed give the Enlightment-European Understanding of the Fall of Rome.
But we have Charles Magne who re-birth the West-Roman Empire
And houw about East -Roman Empire who just fall by the Turkish Empire?
Suleiman should say he is the Romam Empire by conquer right, that mean the Turkish-Roman Empire just fall in the First World War.
At same time Ivan the Terrible will say he is the Roman Emperor, because just he follow the Roman True Religion "Orthodoxy"
The Rome-Slavic Empire just fall 1917 because COMMUNISM!
And the Holly Roman Empire ruled by the Habsburgo family who was destroyed by Napoleon.

And how about Mussolini, he also claim be Rome Emperor and conquer Ethiopia.

I guess the last fall of Rome was 1945. But it fall a lot of time in History.

Saying something doesn’t make it so. If I claimed that my hometown was really the Roman Empire, would it be? No! The Roman Empire fell in the West in 476, and in the east in 1453

leaders like calling themselves Roman because it makes people think of them as powerful, and it evokes thoughts of the real Roman Empire

 

[Kupe Navigator]

to be fair, general indian sentiment regarding the mughals is mixed but leans negatively. Most indians today view them as invaders from Persia and the turkic countries, hence the negative lean, but important to the evolution of indian architecture and culture.

Still part of their history right? I doubt any sane indian scholars would say Mongol Empire is part of their history.

 

[Henri Christophe]

... Italy=/=rome. It is desendent of Rome but not Rome. Next you will say Ottoman empire is still alive because Turkey is still a thing?

I don't believe the Ottoman Empire still alive because Ataturk said it is over, the Turkish people said it is over.
If Turkish people say the Ottoman Empire is no more, I believe in Turkish People.


Mussolini call him self Emperor of Rome and conquer Ethiopia, he isn't just a crazy guy with a crazy idea, he indeed made his Emperor Dream something real, he invades the God Land of Ethiopia and try to kill the last Solomonic King.

 

[Henri Christophe]

Still part of their history right? I doubt any sane indian scholars would say Mongol Empire is part of their history.

I guess it is a amazing way to discover the true. If you find an Indian talking about this subject, it can help all of us.
We need to all remember, we are not they, our understanding about they never will be good enought.

 

[AntSou]

When Japanese described Europe, he understand it as just one big kingdom called Rome and his king was the Pope.

Most of us are White people trying to understand other nations abroad, why we cannot use also the understanding of peopela outside Europe about what was the Roman Empire?

Why should incorrect descriptions provided by foreign diplomats be given greater weight? It's surely interesting to read about how Europeans might have been perceived by visiting dignitaries or diplomats, but that's it. That suggestion is akin to saying African and Asian Civs should be designed according to old European perspectives of those people. The Portuguese thought the Indians were weird Christians at first, for example.

Just a couple of days ago you argued Britannica wasn't a reliable source of information regarding non-western cultures because it's a Western encyclopedia. Yet now you say that "some dude from Japan" should be given equal weight when understanding European cultures.

These two aren't even equivalents (Britannica's articles are written by actual Historians), but somehow the first case is a no-no for you yet the second should be encouraged?

 

[Thenewwwguy]

Still part of their history right? I doubt any sane indian scholars would say Mongol Empire is part of their history.

indeed

I don't believe the Ottoman Empire still alive because Ataturk said it is over, the Turkish people said it is over.
If Turkish people say the Ottoman Empire is no more, I believe in Turkish People.


Mussolini call him self Emperor of Rome and conquer Ethiopia, he isn't just a crazy guy with a crazy idea, he indeed made his Emperor Dream something real, he invades the God Land of Ethiopia and try to kill the last Solomonic King.

God-Land of Ethiopia? Mussolini wasn’t a crazy guy?

Where did you learn history? a conspiracy website?

For all you observers, this is what happens when you claim attested-to history is european propaganda and try to learn from ‘alternate sources’

historical experts agree that the Roman Empire ended with the fall of rome.

Also, I’m indian. I kinda know a thing or two about Indian history. Akbar didn’t think he was a mongol.

 

[Kupe Navigator]

I don't believe the Ottoman Empire still alive because Ataturk said it is over, the Turkish people said it is over.
If Turkish people say the Ottoman Empire is no more, I believe in Turkish People.


Mussolini call him self Emperor of Rome and conquer Ethiopia, he isn't just a crazy guy with a crazy idea, he indeed made his Emperor Dream something real, he invades the God Land of Ethiopia and try to kill the last Solomonic King.

And he failed Massively. Yeah out of all the axis nations there is a reason why Italy is called loser of the team. They failed in nearly every battle.

Also when western Rome fell none of cities in Italy called themselves Roman. They identified themselves as florence , Venice ect. Did Italian people in Renesance ever identify themselves as Roman?