[NFP] Civilization VI: Possible New Civilizations Thread

I guess it was out of context.

When I start to speak bad about Britannica Source was when I was arguing if the Seminole's are Black or Native.
Britannica Source said Seminole are Native Americans.
I found a Black source saying they are a mix race.

After some discussion I just start to read a lot about Seminole and finally understand well the problem.

There is 3 Seminole Groups.

Oklahoma's Seminole are indeed more Native American.
Florida's Seminole are full mix race
Mexican's Semino are more Black.

Britannica source just speak about Oklahoma's Seminole, My black Source just speak about Florida's Seminole.

Indeed, both are wrong after all.

What? Where is your source for this? The Seminole in Florida are a native american group, and the seminole in Oklahoma are a group of seminole who were forced to walk the trail of tears. The ‘seminole’ in mexico are unrelated.
]
About the Netherlands, as the unique leader seems to require R&F (as per the pack #5 description), it implies (at least this is the way I see it) that not only they can be played with a R&F civ, but also there also no civs outside of the R&F expansion that they can lead. If it wasn't so, why specify having the expansion as a requirement? If it was, for example, Kublai Khan, while it's perfectly logical why players without R&F wouldn't be able to play as him leading Mongolia, I see no reason to bar the expansion-less players from playing with him leading China.

Considering how the announcement is phrased, it appears most likely that the new alternate leader will lead only one civ from the R&F expansion and among the possible candidates, Korea and the Netherlands are probably most popular. The inclusion of the latter is further supported by Portugal, whose appearance in NFP seems almost certain. The two civs could be easily thematically paired up with their shared history of trade and colonialism.

presumably the idea is that since he’s an alt leader for mongolia, which is likely what they considered first, they might as well play around with RF mechanics, and then allow him to be used for china too
 
Great. Korea is in dire need of new leader. Crossing my fingers for Sejong the Great. (I am bit of Sejong fanboy.)
Sejong is cool, but Seondeok is a really cool leader who is well deserving of being in civ and I don’t see them playing too differently. If we get a Korea alt, I’d like to see Gwanggaeto
 
But what was all that imperial crap you were talking about? Wouldn't it make more sence not to use non-native source at all if all non-native sources (especially European )are imperial propaganda?
Not all people who say something wrong are doing propaganda, most of times the person just learn wrong and still saying it wrong.

For example the Zimbabwe description in this game as made by the Queen of Sheeba.
It is false and made by British Empire to justify colonization in Zimbabwe.
But the British work of history still around, and even Civlization game, who never pretend to be racist find this racist source and put it in this game.

I don't think the guy who find the Racist source is racist, but he is helping a racist narrative to grew power.
 
Most of the people here with a decent idea of history know how to read history: first person sources should be preferential to the people that the source is about and closely read for imperialistic or racist biases

I'm not totally on board on this, but for "white History". As a French, I lived (and we all lived) for a long time with the myth that "the Gauls were our ancestors" (there is mythical phrase "Nos ancêtres les Gaulois..."). It's kind of late (and because I took interest in History) that I discovered that Gauls were our ancestors only because they lived at the same place but Franks and Romans could be more considered as our ancestors for the legacy they left to us. So even when it's account from first person it should be taken with precautions (except I didn't understood you).

True, but that's about reading critically, not just tossing out everything a group of people wrote because reasons. Even Herodotus was right occasionally.

That's why I asked who wrote it and when it was written. If the History book was written thirty/forty years ago without much meaningful changes and based on materials took from ancient colonial administrators and printed by an alt-right professor keen of national History and national tales, I would say we must be critic about it.
 
Not all people who say something wrong are doing propaganda, most of times the person just learn wrong and still saying it wrong.

For example the Zimbabwe description in this game as made by the Queen of Sheeba.
It is false and made by British Empire to justify colonization in Zimbabwe.
But the British work of history still around, and even Civlization game, who never pretend to be racist find this racist source and put it in this game.

I don't think the guy who find the Racist source is racist, but he is helping a racist narrative to grew power.
the queen of sheba quote from the bible is a quote talking about wealth because great zimbabwe was a big market city and is a commercial wonder

it’s not propaganda

it’s taking a lot of restraint to not use expletives bere
 
What? Where is your source for this? The Seminole in Florida are a native american group
As a Floridian, I can confirm that the Seminole are Native Americans. They did harbor some runaway slaves, but very few have black ancestry--certainly not enough to call them "mixed race" as a whole, and certainly no more than among tribes who kept slaves like the Cherokee.
 
Not all people who say something wrong are doing propaganda, most of times the person just learn wrong and still saying it wrong.

For example the Zimbabwe description in this game as made by the Queen of Sheeba.
It is false and made by British Empire to justify colonization in Zimbabwe.
But the British work of history still around, and even Civlization game, who never pretend to be racist find this racist source and put it in this game.

I don't think the guy who find the Racist source is racist, but he is helping a racist narrative to grew power.
The civilopedia entry says that the Queen of Sheba stuff is fake
 
presumably the idea is that since he’s an alt leader for mongolia, which is likely what they considered first, they might as well play around with RF mechanics, and then allow him to be used for china too

If Vietnam is added with Kublai Khan, I hope we have one of the Trưng sisters as a ruler and the other as a unique governor :p.
 
What? Where is your source for this? The Seminole in Florida are a native american group, and the seminole in Oklahoma are a group of seminole who were forced to walk the trail of tears. The ‘seminole’ in mexico are unrelated.


presumably the idea is that since he’s an alt leader for mongolia, which is likely what they considered first, they might as well play around with RF mechanics, and then allow him to be used for china too
About Seminole, we already speak about that. I don't want to speak again about it.
If you want to see this discussion, look here. https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/black-american-civilizations.658900/
And this woman explain well Seminole History, also see this video and you will understand about this 3 groups of Seminole in North America.
In her book she speak about the Seminole as fellow Americans. So I also think she as a really good source, as she is also American as the Seminoles ^^
 
Last edited:
About Seminole, we already speak about that. I don't want to speak again about it.
If you want to see this discussion, look here. https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/black-american-civilizations.658900/
And this woman explain well Seminole History, also see this video and you will understand about this 3 groups of Seminole in North America.
According to two separate Wikipedia articles, the Seminole population is 18,600 while the black Seminole population is 2000

you’re both right
 
If Vietnam is added with Kublai Khan, I hope we have one of the Trưng sisters as a ruler and the other as a unique governor :p.

Contrary to popular belief, the trung sisters never fought kublai khan. they predated him by hundreds of years.

they also have to be base game compatible, so no governors
 
For all, I don't want to look like racist. But I really think we need to talk straight about that.
We need to speak about racism to overcome the racism.
It isn't my racist agenda.
I dream with a world without ANY KIND of racism.

If I say something wrong, I will apologize, I'm not an expert in History after all.
I'm just a south american guy who play Civilization since 2015 and always hate any kind of racism.

Indeed, I made my account in this forum just to try to do a balanced game. (I choice an Haitian Emperor for my profile, because I guess Haiti is the most proud Civilization there is in the Western Hemisphere).
 
Contrary to popular belief, the trung sisters never fought kublai khan. they predated him by hundreds of years.

they also have to be base game compatible, so no governors

I know, but it's quite possible that the Trung sisters will be added to a regional themed DLC along with Kublai Khan. Simon Bolivar and Lady Six Sky had nothing in common with each other besides the geographic proximity of their civilizations.
 
I know, but it's quite possible that the Trung sisters will be added to a regional themed DLC along with Kublai Khan. Simon Bolivar and Lady Six Sky had nothing in common with each other besides the geographic proximity of their civilizations.
my guess is that either packs have no regional relevance or it’s very broad geographical overarching regions
 
Well great, this whole Seminole/race debate has found it's way to this thread. :rolleyes:
I'm going to stay out of it because @Zaarin and Britannica already made my point. :)

I wouldn't be so certain. I think there's a good chance there's a final African Civ after Ethiopia.
I'm predicting if we get another it will be from North Africa, as Ethiopia represents Sub-Sahara Africa, assuming the packs are based off of regions.

Contrary to popular belief, the trung sisters never fought kublai khan. they predated him by hundreds of years.

they also have to be base game compatible, so no governors
Who believes that?
Anyway I think Trung Trac could get in with Trung Nhi as a unique Great General at the start of the game, if they wanted to avoid the whole two leader at the same time shenanigans.
 
when I was young and start to search about African history, the first thing I found was a British guy saying.
AFRICA DON'T HAVE HISTORY because it don't have Written.

How can an European source be good when speak about abroad land. I just use European sources if I want to learn about Europe, all other topics of world European Sources are not good sources at all.

Some random British dude on the internet does not count as a Source.

There is SOME merit to your cynicism regarding Histories, but you're going in an entirely weird way about it.

1. For instance, Portuguese historians until recently weren't too keen to address the more jarring aspects of colonisation. Speaking of slavery and conquest in the abstract is much easier than to engage and quote the more visceral accounts written by the people who lived during that time. Portuguese Historians did not need to lie, just omit, and choose to focus on more agreeable things. Historians, like everyone else, are still bound to be affected by the emotions and issues of their time.

2. Access to sources in 2020 is way more democratised compared to 1920 or 1820. A government, and certainly a democratic one, is much less likely to be able to hide sources away in some library, to be accessed only by a handful of Historians with the right connections and the right frame of mind.

3. "Philia" is not uncommon among Historians. Meaning that often it can be the emotional attachment to a particular person, events or culture that leads a Historian to want to focus their research on that aspect in the first place. That a person prefers to focus on things that interest them is hardly surprising, we all do it, but this can be troublesome. The 19th century Philhellenes, for instance, were too emotionally connected to their own perceptions of classic Greece to be reliable History-tellers. They gave us very Greek-centred account of European history and attempted to interpret later developments in Europe as developing linearly from Ancient Greece.

So, although there's room for scepticism and it's perfectly natural to ask "who wrote this" and wish to read a few different accounts on the same subject by people from different backgrounds to ensure you're well-informed, your casual dismissal of all Historians of European descent on matters outside Europe is plainly immature. It's made worse since you seem willing to just grab on any "source" (aka dude on the internet) that seems to corroborate the point you're trying to make.
 
Last edited:
The 19th century Philhellenes were too emotionally connected to their own perceptions of classic Greece to be reliable History-tellers. They gave us very Greek-centred account of European history and attempted to interpret later developments in Europe as developing linearly from Ancient Greece.
They're also the ones who gave us the myth of the "Dark Ages" because the Middle Ages weren't "Greek" enough. :rolleyes:
 
the queen of sheba quote from the bible is a quote talking about wealth because great zimbabwe was a big market city and is a commercial wonder

it’s not propaganda

it’s taking a lot of restraint to not use expletives bere

He's actually correct here: there is a mythical association (popularised by a German explorer, although apparently dating to the site's discovery by the Portuguese, and enthusiastically adopted by British pop culture following the conquest of Rhodesia, although in fairness never given much credence by actual historians even at the time) between the Queen of Sheba and Great Zimbabwe that was concocted by someone who didn't believe the Bantu built it. Even if the motives for using the quote were innocent it's an extremely unfortunate choice, and sticking a disclaimer in the Civilopedia that no one reads is not much defence.

Some random British dude on the internet does not count as a Source.

Congratulations, you've just undermined the entire basis of internet discussions.

They're also the ones who gave us the myth of the "Dark Ages" because the Middle Ages weren't "Greek" enough. :rolleyes:

The 'myth' of the Dark Ages is purely a result of confusion over the meaning of the word 'Dark'. The term was coined to refer to the period for which little written documentation is available - they were 'dark' in the sense of being poorly-known. Pop culture associations of 'darkness' with primitiveness or ignorance led to the myth that the period was particularly primitive, which was neither the original intent of the term nor in many respects accurate - although it's equally untrue that there was no social decline at all in the post-Roman period.
 
frick pseudohistory all my homies hate pseudohistory
 
Back
Top Bottom