[NFP] Civilization VI: Possible New Civilizations Thread

[PhoenicianGold]

What does "name recognition" matter in a game with the likes of Eleanor, Lautaro, Kupe, Amanitore, Lady Six Sky, etc.?

Again, this is just a fan rule you're imagining to exist.

Resonance is a good design rule of thumb. Pronounciability is also a good design rule of thumb. Just because the devs don't adhere to a good design rule 100% of the time doesn't mean it isn't factoring into their decisions at all.

 

[Revanchist]

Alexios Komnenos is a far more interesting and, in my opinion, a better choice than Theodora. His reconquest and struggles really stand out amongst the numerous eastern roman emperors. Furthermore, Theodora was in the last game.

I can envision a unique hippodrome and perhaps an ability that gives the eastern romans some production bonus during emergencies. He was an accomplished military leader so a unique unit wouldn’t be surprising

 

[Lord Lakely]

For balance, an alt leader of Netherlands or Scotland would have to be just as bland and boring as the original was.

This would be a mechanical disaster given how bad Wilhemina and Robert's abilities are. Nobody in their right minds would choose them again. At least Eleanor and Chandragupta's presences didn't discredit Victoria, CdM and Gandhi's abilities.

True, but I think 9 times out of 10 they will choose a popular, famous leader for popular, famous civilizations (the odd exceptions like CdM and Seondeok don't disprove the tendency--also the "odd exceptions" are almost all women and there are no women to lead Babylon--even Shammuramat of Assyria would be a very, very dubious choice).

Shammurammat is my preferred choice for Assyria and I'm not ashamed to admit it. Her semi-legendary status and the fact she's attested to have existed, if little else, makes her a perfect blank canvas for the devs to get very creative - similar to how they nailed Kupe.

Though when it comes down to ancient era women, nobody beats Hatshepsut and Puduhepa in that regard.

Just another reminder that the V Leaders Reborn mod means that those who want them can eventually have a FXS-quality Napoleon, Elizabeth or William of Orange in game.

I cannot imagine a world in which Napoleon and his horse don't look incredibly out of place with the other leaders. Civ's 5 leader screens were, to their credit, a bit too rich for their own good.

France's "problem" is that it has a host of good and different Leaders throughout its history. Even when the titular king was mediocre, up popped really good subordinate Ministers and Leaders like Richelieu, Mazarin, Colbert, Vauban, Louvois - it's a real Surplus of choices.

That isn't a problem at all. It makes France a very easy civ to design and shoehorn into your Civ game. If you lack a civ with a certain speciality, France can fit that role.
The problem is that France always is pigeonholed into the role of A Cultural Power in spite of being a militaristic and political powerhouse. Despite having such a rich history and a myriad of amazing leaders at their disposal, France's design always feels lazy and boring. Not quite unlike the developer's myopia has which condemned American to a state of permanent tedium (though Civ 6's America is the best one to date).

I personally hope to see a non-cultural France in Civ 7. Someone else should fill that role. (China, Egypt, Greece, Russia, Japan, Assyria - to name a FEW who could)

 

[Thenewwwguy]

If byz turns out to be a science civ that uses religion to get there, I might reduce my aversion towards it.

I really don’t want to see Byz

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

If byz turns out to be a science civ that uses religion to get there, I might reduce my aversion towards it.

I really don’t want to see Byz

Arabia already do that, so I'm not so sure about Byzantines chance to do something similar.

 

[Thenewwwguy]

Arabia already do that, so I'm not so sure about Byzantines chance to do something similar.

it can be done in a different manner

 

[Zaarin]

Shammurammat is my preferred choice for Assyria and I'm not ashamed to admit it. Her semi-legendary status and the fact she's attested to have existed, if little else, makes her a perfect blank canvas for the devs to get very creative

Semiramis is a legendary version of Shammuramat, but they're not the same. Shammuramat's accomplishments as regent were unremarkable and she ruled at a low point for Assyria; the Greeks and Persians were just titillated by the idea of a woman running an empire. Assyria has half a dozen better choices; if Shammuramat were chosen she'd make CdM and Cleopatra look like inspired choices.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

Alexios Komnenos is a far more interesting and, in my opinion, a better choice than Theodora. His reconquest and struggles really stand out amongst the numerous eastern roman emperors. Furthermore, Theodora was in the last game.

I can envision a unique hippodrome and perhaps an ability that gives the eastern romans some production bonus during emergencies. He was an accomplished military leader so a unique unit wouldn’t be surprising

True, but I think 9 times out of 10 they will choose a popular, famous leader for popular, famous civilizations (the odd exceptions like CdM and Seondeok don't disprove the tendency--also the "odd exceptions" are almost all women and there are no women to lead Babylon--even Shammuramat of Assyria would be a very, very dubious choice).

I would like to point out that only Russia and China have replaced female leaders with male leaders so far; it hasn't happened at all in the expansions. On the flip side, we have replaced traditionally male leaders for France, Poland, Indonesia, the Netherlands, Korea, Sweden, and the Maya with female leaders (and arguably the Huns). Along with several new civs who were strongly considered on the merits of claiming prominent female leaders like Nubia, Georgia, and the return of Dido for Phoenicia.

Point being, there is clearly a feminist bias and I think all arguments for "importance" of any male leader go out the window if at least one very notable female leader option exists. Byzantium has more than one strong female leader option, and for that reason I will be stunned if it happened to be represented by Alexios, Justinian, or Constantine. Again, we must keep in mind that the developers don't seem to care about strict accomplishment this time around, so much as giving players a larger variety of personalities to play with/against.

I'm expecting Trung Trac at this point. There aren't really any other female leaders in Asia on her level, let alone any that are practically national personifications. I just hope that we still get Burma too.

It's a pretty short list of female candidates for new civs though. I'm also holding out for Dihya leading a janky Berber civ. And I think Lady Six Sky was always going to be the only American female leader, unless by some magical happenstance we get Liliuokalani too.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

That isn't a problem at all. It makes France a very easy civ to design and shoehorn into your Civ game. If you lack a civ with a certain speciality, France can fit that role.
The problem is that France always is pigeonholed into the role of A Cultural Power in spite of being a militaristic and political powerhouse. Despite having such a rich history and a myriad of amazing leaders at their disposal, France's design always feels lazy and boring. Not quite unlike the developer's myopia has which condemned American to a state of permanent tedium (though Civ 6's America is the best one to date).

I personally hope to see a non-cultural France in Civ 7. Someone else should fill that role. (China, Egypt, Greece, Russia, Japan, Assyria - to name a FEW who could)

Well as long as tourism is the main way to win a cultural victory it makes sense why France is geared toward it as it the number one visited country in the world.
I mean funnily enough most of those you mentioned are still fill a cultural role.

 

[Revanchist]

My main gripe with Europe’s representation is that it feels very underrepresented in terms of science civilizations. Yes, the UK, France, and Spain along with many other colonial powers did a lot of expansion and conquest, but they were also great at bringing out scientific breakthroughs, much more so in the cases of the UK and France. I understand wanting to take a civ’s playstyle in a certain direction (IE France and culture), but the lack of acknowledgement of many Euro civ’s scientific backgrounds feels off kilter.

 

[The Kingmaker]

I’m just pleased that Assyria’s even being discussed. It’s clear that it was popular in V. People want it back on its own merits and don’t want to have to give up anything else to get it.

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

My main gripe with Europe’s representation is that it feels very underrepresented in terms of science civilizations. Yes, the UK, France, and Spain along with many other colonial powers did a lot of expansion and conquest, but they were also great at bringing out scientific breakthroughs, much more so in the cases of the UK and France. I understand wanting to take a civ’s playstyle in a certain direction (IE France and culture), but the lack of acknowledgement of many Euro civ’s scientific backgrounds feels off kilter.

England ability require good science to make use of, it don't really make you better at science but it encourage you to be good at it. Rome, Greece and Russia is considered to be some of the strongest civs in terms of science mostly due to how important culture is to get science. Spain can get science from its missions.

 

[Zaarin]

I would like to point out that only Russia and China have replaced female leaders with male leaders so far

Peter has been in the series before, and did anyone really expect Wu Zetian to return? I'd love to see her again at some point, but she's not exactly "staple" material.

And I think Lady Six Sky was always going to be the only American female leader

She's certainly the best option. There are very few really good options in North America--Woman Chief of the Crow (hardly a priority), Running Eagle of the Blackfoot (unlikely being right next door to the Cree, culturally, linguistically, and geographically), and maybe Jigonhsasee (I don't see her as compelling as some seem to). There are just a dearth of good female leaders in the Americas; Lady Six Sky (or another Mayan queen) was far and away the best choice there. I'm kind of horrified that people have actually asked for Pocahontas; clearly if the Powhatan are included they ought to be led by Powhatan.

I’m just pleased that Assyria’s even being discussed. It’s clear that it was popular in V. People want it back on its own merits and don’t want to have to give up anything else to get it.

Same.

 

[Revanchist]

England ability require good science to make use of, it don't really make you better at science but it encourage you to be good at it. Rome, Greece and Russia is considered to be some of the strongest civs in terms of science mostly due to how important culture is to get science. Spain can get science from its missions.

I was talking more about direct references to science abilities. A lot of other civs also have ways that make them good at science victories like the Inca, but that doesn’t necessarily mean they are science bonuses

 

[PhoenicianGold]

My main gripe with Europe’s representation is that it feels very underrepresented in terms of science civilizations. Yes, the UK, France, and Spain along with many other colonial powers did a lot of expansion and conquest, but they were also great at bringing out scientific breakthroughs, much more so in the cases of the UK and France. I understand wanting to take a civ’s playstyle in a certain direction, but the lack of acknowledgement of many Euro civ’s scientific backgrounds feels off kilter.

Well a roundabout way of representing that is also with industry/production. So England and Germany could be viewed as "sciency" civs. Others have complained about China not being a science civ either, but in both respects I think there's kind of a heirarchy of which facets are prioritized.

If a civ was so massive that it culturally warped its neighbors, then it begs to have a cultural bent; this seems to be prioritized higher than what technology it put out into the world, presumably because technology has less of a cultural signature attached to it, whereas cultural influence is much more self-evident. And, as far as cultural powerhouses in Europe go, France was indisputably the most influential with respect to the continent, and England the most influential with respect to the world.

Point being, if any European civs begged to be cultural civs, it would be England and France. So it's not really that they weren't science powerhouses, but that there really weren't any better cultural options in the context of a conquest game.

Peter has been in the series before, and did anyone really expect Wu Zetian to return? I'd love to see her again at some point, but she's not exactly "staple" material.

I was primarily distinguishing against V, but that seems to only strengthen the feminist bias, since we didn't really lose much. Peter and Qin Shi Huang are like quintessential nationalist personifications.

She's certainly the best option. There are very few really good options in North America--Woman Chief of the Crow (hardly a priority), Running Eagle of the Blackfoot (unlikely being right next door to the Cree, culturally, linguistically, and geographically), and maybe Jigonhsasee (I don't see her as compelling as some seem to). There are just a dearth of good female leaders in the Americas; Lady Six Sky (or another Mayan queen) was far and away the best choice there. I'm kind of horrified that people have actually asked for Pocahontas; clearly if the Powhatan are included they ought to be led by Powhatan.

While some part of me is giggling historically at all the Disneyfied pop culture jerking in VI and can't wait to see what the devs appropriate next, I would probably riot at Pocahontas. That movie was probably one of the most culturally insensitive things ever made by Disney.

 

[Zaarin]

While some part of me is giggling historically at all the Disneyfied pop culture jerking in VI and can't wait to see what the devs appropriate next, I would probably riot at Pocahontas. That movie was probably one of the most culturally insensitive things ever made by Disney.

Just ignoring Disney, Pocahontas' story is a tragedy: she was married off in a political marriage, got paraded around England, and died young of smallpox. She didn't have control of her own life, never mind ruling anything else. I'd love to see the Powhatan in the game: I think they have a lot to offer as a civ, not least a charismatic ruler in Chief Powhatan, but choosing Pocahontas as leader would be a joke--and not a funny one.

 

[Thenewwwguy]

Just ignoring Disney, Pocahontas' story is a tragedy: she was married off in a political marriage, got paraded around England, and died young of smallpox. She didn't have control of her own life, never mind ruling anything else. I'd love to see the Powhatan in the game: I think they have a lot to offer as a civ, not least a charismatic ruler in Chief Powhatan, but choosing Pocahontas as leader would be a joke--and not a funny one.

see i think firaxis, while having appropriated to a decent extent in this game (i’m thinking the moana and emperor’s new groove references), i don’t think it’s been that bad, and i doubt they’d do something that terrible

I was primarily distinguishing against V, but that seems to only strengthen the feminist bias, since we didn't really lose much. Peter and Qin Shi Huang are like quintessential nationalist personifications.

you keep talking about feminist bias like it’s a bad thing, or even significant. Every woman leader in this game has been a great choice to lead their country, with the only exception of Kristina. There’s been a bigger movement to just vary the leaders up and most of these leaders were some of the biggest leaders of their culture in their own right

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

My main gripe with Europe’s representation is that it feels very underrepresented in terms of science civilizations. Yes, the UK, France, and Spain along with many other colonial powers did a lot of expansion and conquest, but they were also great at bringing out scientific breakthroughs, much more so in the cases of the UK and France. I understand wanting to take a civ’s playstyle in a certain direction (IE France and culture), but the lack of acknowledgement of many Euro civ’s scientific backgrounds feels off kilter.

That's probably why Scotland got the science bonuses. Sweden sort of does too with more scientist points from universities, but obviously most of the abilities revolve around Great Works. My main wish is that Greece would get some science bonuses.

While some part of me is giggling historically at all the Disneyfied pop culture jerking in VI and can't wait to see what the devs appropriate next, I would probably riot at Pocahontas. That movie was probably one of the most culturally insensitive things ever made by Disney.

Giving them a talking grandmother tree UI would be worse than Pocahontas as the leader.

 

[Zaarin]

Giving them a talking grandmother tree UI would be worse than Pocahontas as the leader.

Would it, though?

 

[PhoenicianGold]

you keep talking about feminist bias like it’s a bad thing, or even significant. Every woman leader in this game has been a great choice to lead their country, with the only exception of Kristina. There’s been a bigger movement to just vary the leaders up and most of these leaders were some of the biggest leaders of their culture in their own right

Oh no, I happen to love the feminist bias, even Kristina. Just because I pussyfoot around the conservative leanings of history nerddom here and there doesn't mean I personally ascribe to a western-centric, patriarchal historical narrative. Samey old white general-kings and protectors of the faith bore me and are largely responsible for why I was never much of a history nerd in my youth.

That's probably why Scotland got the science bonuses. Sweden sort of does too with more scientist points from universities, but obviously most of the abilities revolve around Great Works. My main wish is that Greece would get some science bonuses.

I am still hoping we get Bulgaria for a science civ (if Korea can be scientific, so can Bulgaria); I suspect if Byzantium is its own civ it would also have a scientific bent. Denmark could also do okay as a science civ although I think we were anticipating an observatory unique if they went that direction, and the Maya have shut that down.

And then there is Italy...which by far was more of a cultural and trade success story but could really be anything.