[NFP] Civilization VI: Possible New Civilizations Thread

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Why? Arabia wants to convert foreign cities so that they get more science. Foreign cities want to be converted for the cheap worship building. It works the way it is now. If everyone could build Arabia's worship building without being converted, then the other players would get the bonuses from the building and they wouldn't want Arabia to convert them, denying Arabia the extra science. That doesn't work.

Of course that wouldn't stop the Arabian player from wanting to convert the foreign cities.
However it would make an interesting dynamic for the other players especially if Arabia got a worship building that people wanted and still wanted to keep their own religion.
Obviously it won't happen but it would be an interesting scenario if that was the case, in my opinion.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

Okay, so based on Morocco being tacitly deconfirmed thanks to Fez and the diplomatic victory, it seems that our option for North Africa is Berbers or bust.

If that is the case, I also believe that Diyha is pretty much the only option for a Berber leader. Frankly she's a very good candidate on her own merits (imo like a more successful Zenobia with broader appeal as some sort of personification or culture hero), and I highly doubt the devs will consider any male candidates.

For sake of argument, taking these two things as given (or frankly any other Numidian leader), do we think the civ would be a broad "Berbers" or a narrow "Numidia" design?

I'm inclined to think the latter because it would allow the devs to capture non-Numidian UI like a Medina Quarter or Ghorfa Ksar. But it also feels like bucking a trend to style a civ around a tribal identity when a rather large defined kingdom exists as an alternative option.

I'm also struggling to think of a mechanical niche the Berbers could occupy, given that the Ottomans already stole the Barbary Corsair. Numidian cavalry could be a light cavalry with desert bonuses. I guess they could be a strong candidate for a nomadic civ to replace the Huns? Kind of like a desert version of the Maori?

The idea of a nomadic Berbers does appeal to me a bit, given that I really like the idea of the Romani as a decentralized, landless nation of nomadic people, but they lack leader options and generally aren't a good model of civilized behavior. The Berbers hit on the same flavor of a decentralized, landless people, with far less controversy and a great leader candidate.

 

[Thenewwwguy]

i don’t think the berbers would necessarily be solely naval raiders (barbary corsair) or landless nomads (tuareg). The benefit to doing a berbers civ broadly is you can go wide in that regard.

Berbers - Dihya

CA: Razzia: Naval Units cost 30% less to build. Yields from pillaging and raiding are increased by 75%

UU: Numidian Cavalry: Replaces Horsemen. Increased production cost. Start with the Depredation promotion.

UI: Foggara: Replaces Aquaduct. Available after Irrigation. Provides +6 housing, +3 food. Must be built in Desert.

LU: Al-Kahina: can pillage/raid in countries which the Berbers are not at war with for a small warmonger penalty/dislike (base game/RF)/10 grievances per occurrence (GS). This penalty is halved if the target follows a different religion than the Berbers

 

[PhoenicianGold]

i don’t think the berbers would necessarily be solely naval raiders (barbary corsair) or landless nomads (tuareg). The benefit to doing a berbers civ broadly is you can go wide in that regard.

Berbers - Dihya

CA: Razzia: Naval Units cost 30% less to build. Yields from pillaging and raiding are increased by 75%

UU: Numidian Cavalry: Replaces Horsemen. Increased production cost. Start with the Depredation promotion.

UI: Foggara: Replaces Aquaduct. Available after Irrigation. Provides +6 housing, +3 food. Must be built in Desert.

LU: Al-Kahina: can pillage/raid in countries which the Berbers are not at war with for a small warmonger penalty/dislike (base game/RF)/10 grievances per occurrence (GS). This penalty is halved if the target follows a different religion than the Berbers

I'd kind of like something more visually interesting than a foggara. I think a ghorfa could fill the same desert/housing/food function but give us some architecture above ground. Wouldn't replace the acquaduct but otherwise translates pretty much the same mechanically.

Also, if I could sneak in some Moroccan architecture with a medina quarter or a kasbah...the structures are Berber enough even if Morocco was only Berber-ish sometimes.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Also, if I could sneak in some Moroccan architecture with a medina quarter or a kasbah...the structures are Berber enough even if Morocco was only Berber-ish sometimes.

I think putting in a Medina Quarter with Dihya as a leader would be kind of weird since she was actively resisting the Arab invaders, and those are indicative of Arabian architecture.
Then again I'd be fine with Kublai Khan building a Great Wall so I guess it could work.

Also Medina Quarter is currently an economic policy card but I'm sure they both could exist because we have two different wonders at least, Angkor Wat and Chichen Itza, that are also names of cities.

Interestingly enough, looking her up, she seems like she might be controversial especially in the Arab world where she is seen by some people in the government as blasphemous because of her resistance to Islam, while appealing to so called Berber nationalists.

 

[Republic of San Montuoso]

Then again I'd be fine with Kublai Khan building a Great Wall so I guess it could work.

"I'll build a wall to keep my people outside of my country!"

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

I think putting in a Medina Quarter with Dihya as a leader would be kind of weird since she was actively resisting the Arab invaders, and those are indicative of Arabian architecture.
Then again I'd be fine with Kublai Khan building a Great Wall so I guess it could work.

Also Medina Quarter is currently an economic policy card but I'm sure they both could exist because we have two different wonders at least, Angkor Wat and Chichen Itza, that are also names of cities.

Interestingly enough, looking her up, she seems like she might be controversial especially in the Arab world where she is seen by some people in the government as blasphemous because of her resistance to Islam, while appealing to so called Berber nationalists.

An interesting note on Dihya: Arab sources considered her a witch whose power was located in her long hair. Last summer, Firaxis artists were advertising that they were looking for a freelance modeler specializing in natural looking hair. Maybe that was for XCOM:CS or maybe it was for Civ or a different project. But I've been keeping it in mind since then.

 

[Republic of San Montuoso]

OK so I was lazying on Wikipedia, stumbled upon Ennigaldi-Nanna’s Museum, and I just have to say: if we have Babylon, I'm all for Nabonidus (as @Zaarin proposed already IIRC). Because, if we have Babylon, there's a lot of chance to have it a scientific civ, and if we have Nabodinus (the first archaologist according to Wikipedia), we would have a very nice leader that could deal with Artifacts (in a best way than Minerva of the North auto-theming). We could even reuse the Babylon city-state suzerainty bonus for Nabonidus. But, most importantly, it would be fun to have a leader that could build archaeological museums and train archaeologists and see antiquity sites way earlier, like in classical/medieval era. It would be a fun gameplay I think. Dunno what FXS could give us for Hammurabi or Nebuchadnezzar, but Nabonidus' archaeological exploits would write themselves as a LUA.

 

[ferretbacon]

At this point, I'm thinking that the remaining five are Portugal, Byzantium, Vietnam (fan-supported novel inclusion), another ancient Mesopotamian culture (Babylon/Assyria), and another NA native culture (I'd be surprised if the Cree are the only ones we get).

That said, I just watched a documentary series on the Celts, which has left me pining for their inclusion in some form or another.

 

[Zaarin]

if we have Babylon, I'm all for Nabonidus (as @Zaarin proposed already IIRC).

Nope, I suggested Nabopolassar, Nebuchadnezzar II's father. Nabonidus lost the empire to Cyrus, which doesn't disqualify him (Cleopatra also lost her empire, and CdM lost her dynasty), but Nabonidus seems to have been ineffectual and unpopular as a ruler. While the claim of the Cyrus Cylinder that the people of Babylon opened the gates for Cyrus and welcomed him as a liberator from Nabonidus' tyranny should be taken with a healthy grain of salt, the overall historical record seems to be against him. Generally, I agree with The Kingmaker that Hammurabi and Nebuchadnezzar II are the likeliest choices; I'd add Nabopolassar as a possibility. (This is another reason why I'd prefer Assyria: the Sargonid dynasty of the Neo-Assyrian Empire is just filled to the brim with great leader choices.)

 

[Thenewwwguy]

I think putting in a Medina Quarter with Dihya as a leader would be kind of weird since she was actively resisting the Arab invaders, and those are indicative of Arabian architecture.
Then again I'd be fine with Kublai Khan building a Great Wall so I guess it could work.

Also Medina Quarter is currently an economic policy card but I'm sure they both could exist because we have two different wonders at least, Angkor Wat and Chichen Itza, that are also names of cities.

Interestingly enough, looking her up, she seems like she might be controversial especially in the Arab world where she is seen by some people in the government as blasphemous because of her resistance to Islam, while appealing to so called Berber nationalists.

She’s also considered a national hero in Algeria and Tunisia

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Dunno what FXS could give us for Hammurabi or Nebuchadnezzar, but Nabonidus' archaeological exploits would write themselves as a LUA.

I don't know. Maybe Hammurabi could start the game with Code of Laws civic already unlocked?

She’s also considered a national hero in Algeria and Tunisia

I'm sure it could just be a small minority that doesn't see her as one, but it's something I decided to point out. I admit I'm not too knowledgeable on the subject. It seems sort of the same situation how Lautaro is seen inside Chile.

 

[Xandinho]

This whole discussion about Berbers made me think about one thing: honestly, I prefer a civilization of the Maghreb instead of Vietnam. I know that Vietnam is in great demand and would be a good choice. But for me, Southeast Asia is already done with my two favorite civilizations from that region already included: Khmer and Indonesia. That said, I think leaving a region as historically rich and important as Maghreb empty would not be appropriate, either Morocco or Berbers would be great choice.
I'd include a civilization of Maghreb now and leave Vietnam for the next round of passes.

 

[Thenewwwguy]

I think Burma is more historically merited than Vietnam as well, but Vietnam would be good

I’d rather see the Berbers though.

wait @Alexander's Hetaroi ppl don’t like Lautaro outside of Chile/Argentina?

 

[PhoenicianGold]

This whole discussion about Berbers made me think about one thing: honestly, I prefer a civilization of the Maghreb instead of Vietnam. I know that Vietnam is in great demand and would be a good choice. But for me, Southeast Asia is already done with my two favorite civilizations from that region already included: Khmer and Indonesia. That said, I think leaving a region as historically rich and important as Maghreb empty would not be appropriate, either Morocco or Berbers would be great choice.
I'd include a civilization of Maghreb now and leave Vietnam for the next round of passes.

I think Burma is more historically merited than Vietnam as well, but Vietnam would be good

I’d rather see the Berbers though.

wait @Alexander's Hetaroi ppl don’t like Lautaro outside of Chile/Argentina?

I would absolutely support this. Between the Berbers, Burma, and Vietnam, Vietnam is the civ I could actually do without. Even though I think Vietnam is the clear frontrunner atm and would make a fine civ in its own right.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

wait @Alexander's Hetaroi ppl don’t like Lautaro outside of Chile/Argentina?

Sorry I was just talking about how she is seen as a national hero to the modern day countries she lived in, like Lautaro, yet the people that they represented were the ones that were indigenous to the region.
I looked it up and it seems that at least only one person, the president of the defense of Arab language in Algeria, wasn't too fond of a statue being dedicated to her. There probably won't be a problem at all with depicting her if she does turn out to be the leader.

As far as between wanting something from North Africa or South East Asia, well I don't know what I would want more.
I've kind of jumped fully on the Vietnam bandwagon so I honestly would rather it more. Also I don't think that the NFP would skip over East Asia when GS already did that.

Even though Burma is historically more important, if they were going to go that route, I would take the Berbers though sense Burma might seem a little to similar to the Khmer. Actually I wouldn't mind the Siam returning over Burma to depict something that isn't Medieval SE Asia.

I guess it goes to me Vietnam>Berbers>Siam>Burma>Morocco.

 

[Thenewwwguy]

Sorry I was just talking about how she is seen as a national hero to the modern day countries she lived in, like Lautaro, yet the people that they represented were the ones that were indigenous to the region.
I looked it up and it seems that at least only one person, the president of the defense of Arab language in Algeria, wasn't too fond of a statue being dedicated to her. There probably won't be a problem at all with depicting her if she does turn out to be the leader.

As far as between wanting something from North Africa or South East Asia, well I don't know what I would want more.
I've kind of jumped fully on the Vietnam bandwagon so I honestly would rather it more. Also I don't think that the NFP would skip over East Asia when GS already did that.

Even though Burma is historically more important, if they were going to go that route, I would take the Berbers though sense Burma might seem a little to similar to the Khmer. Actually I wouldn't mind the Siam returning over Burma to depict something that isn't Medieval SE Asia.

I guess it goes to me Vietnam>Berbers>Siam>Burma>Morocco.

i feel like khmer is religious to achieve culture vics (i use suk’s rework so now they’re wonderbuilders too).

Burma would reasonably be religious for a sake of religion, and i can see them functioning like a tibet replacement mechanically, as an isolationist religion civ

I like Sukritact’s Burma, but I feel that it isn’t particularly focused in the religious side of the civ, which I think would be well represented via Anawrahata, the founder of the idea of Myanmar, the first Therveda king of Burma and famous for his religious reforms

Burma: Anawrahata

CA: Theravada sanctuary: can produce inquisitors in Burma’s holy city even if it is converted. Inquisitors may be used in countries which Burma has an alliance with.

UU: Ceylonese Elephants: Replaces Knight. can only be bought via gold, and is expensive, but +15 combat strength

UI: Paya: builder-unlocked improvement. provides +2 adjacency bonus to holy sites, but only one can be built per city. +2 faith, +1 culture, +1 food if adjacent to a Weir

LA: Revival of Ceylon: Can build weirs. Converting an ally’s city will not produce grievances. Converting a holy city provides +100 diplomatic favor, but -50 gold that turn.


LUI: Weir: Replaces dam. May be built on plains or floodplain tiles adjacent to a river tiles adjacent to a weir. cities 5 tiles away from a weir as well as the city the weir is built in get 3 housing and +4 food.

 

[Zaarin]

i feel like khmer is religious to achieve culture vics (i use suk’s rework so now they’re wonderbuilders too).

We're actually pretty short on "religion for religion's sake" civs (which I think is preferable): Khmer and Russia are pretty heavily oriented towards CV, which is somewhat true of Poland; Spain is more DV-oriented; Arabia uses religion to boost Science; etc. Not that any of these can't also use their bonuses for RV; but virtually every religion-oriented civ in the game uses it as a synergy for something else (which, again, is as it should be).

UI: Paya: builder-unlocked improvement. provides +1 adjacency bonus to holy sites, but only one can be built per city. +2 faith.

If I can only build one of an improvement per city, I think I want more than +3 Faith from it.

 

[Thenewwwguy]

We're actually pretty short on "religion for religion's sake" civs (which I think is preferable): Khmer and Russia are pretty heavily oriented towards CV, which is somewhat true of Poland; Spain is more DV-oriented; Arabia uses religion to boost Science; etc. Not that any of these can't also use their bonuses for RV; but virtually every religion-oriented civ in the game uses it as a synergy for something else (which, again, is as it should be).


If I can only build one of an improvement per city, I think I want more than +3 Faith from it.

yeah i agree we need more religion for religion’s sake civs, and i’ve fixed the paya bonus

 

[PhoenicianGold]

i feel like khmer is religious to achieve culture vics (i use suk’s rework so now they’re wonderbuilders too).

Burma would reasonably be religious for a sake of religion, and i can see them functioning like a tibet replacement mechanically, as an isolationist religion civ

I like Sukritact’s Burma, but I feel that it isn’t particularly focused in the religious side of the civ, which I think would be well represented via Anawrahata, the founder of the idea of Myanmar, the first Therveda king of Burma and famous for his religious reforms

Burma: Anawrahata

CA: Theravada sanctuary: can produce inquisitors in Burma’s holy city even if it is converted. Inquisitors may be used in countries which Burma has an alliance with.

UU: Ceylonese Elephants: Replaces Knight. can only be bought via gold, and is expensive, but +15 combat strength

UI: Paya: builder-unlocked improvement. provides +1 adjacency bonus to holy sites, but only one can be built per city. +2 faith.

LA: Revival of Ceylon: Can build weirs. Converting an ally’s city will not produce grievances. Converting a holy city provides +100 diplomatic favor, but -50 gold that turn.


LUI: Weir: Replaces dam. May be built on plains or floodplain tiles adjacent to a river tiles adjacent to a weir. cities 5 tiles away from a weir as well as the city the weir is built in get 3 housing and +4 food.

I like Sukritact's Burma, but I was hoping for something with an even more niche playstyle converting gold to faith.

UD: Paya: replaces the Holy Site. Must be built on grassland or plains. Has one relic slot for each building. +3 gold for each relic. +1 faith adjacency to farms and commercial hubs.

LA: Revival of Ceylon: Religious units can be purchased with gold. Converting an ally's city will not produce grievances. Converting a holy city provides + 100 diplomatic favor but -50 gold that turn.