[NFP] Civilization VI: Possible New Civilizations Thread

[Thenewwwguy]

You correctly guessed Lady Six Sky? Was there some hints leading you predict that or something? If there wasn't I've got no idea how you would have correctly guessed that unless you have behind the scenes information lol, unless she's much more famous that I realise it seemed like quite a surprise to me

in this game they’ve tried to rotate leaders from civ 5 wherever possible, and LSS has been really popular here and on reddit, and would be one of the best choices for the maya besides Pacal, so it was logical, really.

She's famous here and on reddit, and that seems to be the reason they picked her as far as we can tell.

this

 

[Yubnub]

you ignored the babylon city state in returning city states

Babylon replaced Seoul and city-states that replaced city-states who have been upgraded to civ status have never been upgraded themselves.

The way Granada is designed, by granting the suzerain bonus to building an Alcazar improvement, I would say it is supposed to represent Al Andalus or the Emirate of Granada, considering it was on Spain's city list at launch then removed later.

I still think Armagh would be an Irish city since Northern Ireland has only existed for 99 years and was part of united Ireland for much longer.
Plus it's the ecclesiastical capital of Ireland and legendary home of St. Patrick. Who's more Irish than St. Patrick?

I only separated Northern Ireland for political reasons. I'm certainly not an expert on Irish history, but if Armagh is significant enough for Ireland then that makes Ireland as a potential civ unlikely as the city-state has a unique improvement.

I would place Antananarivo/Madagascar, Preslav/Bulgaria and Hunza/Muisca in the category of significant enough to become civilization (perhaps not in NFP, but in a future round of passes or editions of the game). I think they are more likely than Belgium.

I would like to clarify that I personally don't value Madagascar, etc. as less significant, but looking at potential civs as a whole, I think Belgium would appeal to the European and American markets more than those listed. Just my opinion.

I find it odd that everyone keeps classifying Antioch as representing Byzantium. It feels more Seleucid to me.



I would classify Muscat (Oman)/Zanziber (Kilwa) and Preslav (Bulgaria) as being reasonably probable given how large and enduring their empires were in regions that aren't culturally represented very well. I would also throw out Yerevan (Armenia) as being a dark horse option over Assyria, and Antananarivo (Madagascar) as possibly being included over Oman/Swahili/Kilwa. Outside of those I would agree that the rest are quite unlikely.



I wouldn't necessarily say that city-states which were previously civs are "likely" to get in, besides Lisbon (Portugal). Both Hattusa (Hittites) and Babylon co-occupy a lot of space with the Ottomans and Sumeria, and the comfortable Mesopotamian option appears to be Assyria. And while Morocco does stand out as one of the only civs from V which has not been "replaced" by another civ (such as Austria (Hungary), Denmark (Norway), Celts (Scotland), Huns (Scythia), Carthage (Phoenicia), Songhai (Mali), Siam (Khmer), Polynesia (Maori), etc.), the Fez city-state combined with the Moroccan flag on the diplo vic screen suggests that Morocco will not return itself, but would be replaced by a Berber/Numidia civ.

I generally agree with your conclusions, even though they are somewhat cherry-picked to exclude options like Oman and Bulgaria, and favor quite odd selections like Belgium and Argentina. If we are just looking at city-states, Akkadia and Hattusa are more likely than Babylon, but none are as likely as Assyria. Gran Colombia serves an almost identical niche as Argentina would, and was generally the stronger option; no Argentina. And Belgium is no more likely to happen than Ireland, Switzerland, or Finland, so of course Lisbon is more likely.

Given that there are two pockets of potential Sub-Saharan civs, along the Guinea and Swahili coasts, I don't think Ethiopia's inclusion means anything. Especially since Ethiopia is practically a staple at this point and doesn't really need to compete for "new" slots.

As someone had pointed out, Antioch was part of the Byzantium city list in V. My reasoning for picking Belgium and Argentina is based on what would sell and those two would appeal more to European and American markets than others, in my opinion. I myself have no issue with less represented regions becoming civs, quite the contrary, but there needs to be a pull of some sort to get things like the NF pass to sell (Maya and Gran Colombia being the first two practically guaranteed that the NF pass would sell well).


I think we all need to accept that, if Portugal and/or Byzantium make it into the NF pass, which seems very likely, that there probably won't be another pass. There are 5 civs left in the pass: Vietnam, a highly requested civ, is all but confirmed; assuming Portugal and Byzantium make it, that would leave 2; a Native American civ and Assyria>Hittite/Akkadian>Babylon. Even if a second theoretical pass were to exist, can we really say that, say, Italy and Austria, plus some underrepresented regions would ever match, or even come close to, the hype/appeal that this pass has? However, IF Portugal/Byzantium don't make it, then that's a different story...

 

[AntSou]

You want to talk about an alternate economy format, how about a commodity-scarcity economy.

For every resource a city has, the city's trade route yield is increased proportionate to the city's market share of each resource when trading with a city that does not otherwise have access to that resource either by improving that resource or getting it via another trade route.

For example, if there are 7 improved Cotton tiles in the world and Paris controls 2, its trade routes to cities that do not have any Cotton would be +2 yield (gold or food/Industry depending on foreign or domestic). If Paris owned all 7 improved Cotton tiles, it would be +7 yield.

If they owned 2 and traded them to London who has no native access to Cotton, but also received a Trade Route from Berlin who also has 2 improved Cotton tiles, both Paris and Berlin would receive only +1 Gold on their Trade Routes to London because their Cotton sellers in London are competing with each other (and not conspiring with each other).

I'd rather it have nothing to do with yields and just help make Amenities more meaningful.

What would also be really awesome is if each luxury had an innate ability, and owning at least one would provide access to that ability.

Right now they are all the same, other than in regards to tile yields.

E.g. Oranges provide +10% growth in your cities, additional +2% for each additional copy of oranges you own. Silk provides +3 diplo Favor, +1 for each subsequent copy.

And so on...

Would truly make each playthrough unique.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I only separated Northern Ireland for political reasons. I'm certainly not an expert on Irish history, but if Armagh is significant enough for Ireland then that makes Ireland as a potential civ unlikely as the city-state has a unique improvement.

I never thought it was likely considering we already have Scotland. If Ireland did come I would have thought maybe they could have got that unique improvement anyway.

I'd rather it have nothing to do with yields and just help make Amenities more meaningful.

What would also be really awesome is if each luxury had an innate ability, and owning at least one would provide access to that ability.

Right now they are all the same, other than in regards to tile yields.

E.g. Oranges provide +10% growth in your cities, additional +2% for each additional copy of oranges you own. Silk provides +3 diplo Favor, +1 for each subsequent copy.

And so on...

Would truly make each playthrough unique.

I don't know if it would be doable but I think it would be neat if those bonuses were considered a "monopoly" bonus if no one else in the world have those luxuries.
Or make the "monopoly" bonuses more powerful on top of the other bonuses you mentioned such as silk providing more diplo favor for every active trade route.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

I would like to clarify that I personally don't value Madagascar, etc. as less significant, but looking at potential civs as a whole, I think Belgium would appeal to the European and American markets more than those listed. Just my opinion.

As a matter of pure population, sure, but so far the roster has never strayed outside of anything that wasn't an empire, or otherwise expansionist (with kingdoms like Hungary and Scotland just barely arguing around technicalities). Belgium has never been either of those things. I would presume actual empires like Bulgaria or Denmark would be more likely before the devs started looking at some of the smaller polities that have never actually established regional dominance.

As someone had pointed out, Antioch was part of the Byzantium city list in V. My reasoning for picking Belgium and Argentina is based on what would sell and those two would appeal more to European and American markets than others, in my opinion. I myself have no issue with less represented regions becoming civs, quite the contrary, but there needs to be a pull of some sort to get things like the NF pass to sell (Maya and Gran Colombia being the first two practically guaranteed that the NF pass would sell well).

Bulgaria may not have as large of a population as Belgium, but it has a larger regional legacy of having occupied the other south slavic states for centuries, as well as a looser cultural effect on the whole Slavic world. In that respect it would probably appeal to a lot more people than the relatively insular Belgian identity.

I think we all need to accept that, if Portugal and/or Byzantium make it into the NF pass, which seems very likely, that there probably won't be another pass. There are 5 civs left in the pass: Vietnam, a highly requested civ, is all but confirmed; assuming Portugal and Byzantium make it, that would leave 2; a Native American civ and Assyria>Hittite/Akkadian>Babylon. Even if a second theoretical pass were to exist, can we really say that, say, Italy and Austria, plus some underrepresented regions would ever match, or even come close to, the hype/appeal that this pass has? However, IF Portugal/Byzantium don't make it, then that's a different story...

I generally agree with this, and, contrariwise, if any one of those four (Byzantium, Portugal, Assyria, NA civ) do not appear in expack 3, then the chances are increased that a second season is planned.

I will note that it would be the first time we got a five-three split of returning/new civs since the first year of DLC, and it's entirely possible the devs would want to save two or three of those for a second season so at least some of the slots are familiar. Also, even if the roster is completed with NFP, this doesn't preclude game mode and leader packs in the future.

 

[krmarci]

Already Included
Most Likely
Somewhat Likely
Unlikely
Very Unlikely

Previously-Included Civs
Assyria
Austria
Babylon
Byzantium
Britons (Boudica's Celts)
Denmark
Ethiopia
Gaul (Brennus' Celts)
Hawai'i (Kamehameha's Polynesia)
Hittites
Huns
Iroquois
Italy (Dandolo's Venice)
Maya
Morocco (or Berbers?)
Portugal
Shoshone
Siam
Sioux
Songhai

Popular Suggestions New to the Franchise
Apache/Navajo
Ashanti/Benin
Bulgaria/Romania
Burma
Cherokee/Creek
Gran Colombia
Goths
Ireland
Kilwa/Swahili/Oman
Kushans
Palmyra/Syria
Timurids/Gurkhani
Vietnam
Zimbabwe/Mutapa

Changed this to fit my expectations. I expect Portugal simply to balance out Spain/GC, even if I think it struggles to find design space. I expect at least a Byzantine alternate leader so that's just as good as a lock. And Vietnam is the only civ that I just don't see the devs passing up on. Yellow civs are what are most likely on the developers' short list. Orange civs are dark horses that might have snuck their way onto the shortlist, in most instances taking the place of one of the yellow civs. And red civs just seem to occupy too much similar design/representational space to civs already on the roster. I would also say that there is an implied handicap given to returning civs since they would almost certainly have come up for consideration at some point.

You missed Babylon, the Vikings, Polynesia, Carthage, Native Americans and the Holy Roman Empire.

[...]
City-states that are unlikely to become civilizations:

[...]
Preslav (Bulgaria)
[...]
Vilnius (Lithuania)
Yerevan (Armenia)
[...]

I have to disagree with these three. These countries all had an important empire at some point in history:
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Duchy_of_Lithuania#Territorial_expansion
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Bulgarian_Empire
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Armenia_(antiquity)

 

[Yubnub]

Important empire or not (and the fact that they are city-states in the first place suggests importance), the fact is that, prior to Vietnam being discovered, there was really only one slot unaccounted for, assuming other fan favorites got in this pass. We are speculating whether a civ gets in in a game that is now almost 4 years old. Assuming Vietnam was not discovered, it would be necessary to look at how popular a civ would be and the potential market for said civ. Vietnam has made all that moot though.

Leader speculation time
Vietnam - Trung sisters. Vietnam and the Trung sisters frequently come up when discussions around "acceptable" women-led civs pop up. The leader animations/interactions would be very interesting.
Portugal - Considering how poorly Maria I was received, probably someone safe, like Joao II (it didn't help that the devs referenced her "madness" in her leader animations in V).
Byzantium - I would love it if Theodora came back and I think she was generally well received (ahem), but it wouldn't surprise me if Justinian is picked. If some sort of plague mechanic gets in, it would have to be with this civ.
Assyria - If I can't have Theodora, I would be content with Semiramis/Shammuramat. And like Gilgamesh, she would be semi-mythical. There would probably be less outrage if a woman was picked for Assyria than Portugal/Byzantium/NA civs (historians, amateur or otherwise, notwithstanding).
Native American civ - Mississippian would be unlikely with Cahokia having a unique improvement. Probably a plains type, and probably something that would generate the least amount of controversy and headaches for the devs. I don't recall any controversy with the Shoshone when they were announced, making them a safe choice.

 

[acluewithout]

Kubla Khan. Vietnam. Alternate Economy Mode.

Well, that’s all very exciting.

Khan is exciting, because that might mean a version of China more focused on war. Which is what China has been crying out for.

Vietnam is exciting because, first, Vietnam, and second, possibility of a second unique Governor.

And Alternate Economy mode is because, I mean, I have no freaking idea what that would be, but pretty much all the options are freaking awesome.

Well, colour me thrilled.

 

[Isengardtom]

The ones I really hope to see :
- Byzantium lead by Alexios Komnenos
- Babylon or Assyria (or both but i doubt that)
- alternate leader for Egypt

 

[Thenewwwguy]

Assyria - If I can't have Theodora, I would be content with Semiramis/Shammuramat. And like Gilgamesh, she would be semi-mythical. There would probably be less outrage if a woman was picked for Assyria than Portugal/Byzantium/NA civs (historians, amateur or otherwise, notwithstanding).

first of all, Semiramis is almost solely famous for the fact that she was a woman leading at the time, which shocked foreign historians. By all accounts she wasn’t a big personality or an outstanding ruler that I necessarily would think would be a good fit, especially when Ashurbanipal, Tiglath-Pileser III and Sennerscherib are all available options

also, given the way the fanbase reacts to woman leaders, i doubt any woman leader will get by without complaints

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Vietnam - Trung sisters. Vietnam and the Trung sisters frequently come up when discussions around "acceptable" women-led civs pop up. The leader animations/interactions would be very interesting.

In my hypothetical Vietnam design that I put on here and the design your own civ thread I decided that I think if the Trung Sisters are represented it would be with Trung Trac as the leader and Trung Nhi as her personal UU considering all the sources I've seen said Trung Trac, as the oldest, was crowned queen in at least all of them.
Trung Nhi could be a Great General replacement available at the start of the game and can be used the whole game. Her passive effects with combat and movement are the same as regular great generals and she could use charges in encampments to (recruit) speed up production of units.
Also she would ride on an elephant.

Assyria - If I can't have Theodora, I would be content with Semiramis/Shammuramat. And like Gilgamesh, she would be semi-mythical. There would probably be less outrage if a woman was picked for Assyria than Portugal/Byzantium/NA civs (historians, amateur or otherwise, notwithstanding).

As pointed out I don't think we should give Assyria a female leader, for just being a female, when we have other big personality and more capable leaders to pick from.
The best possible third female leader option, in my mind, would be Theodora like you mentioned.

Native American civ - Mississippian would be unlikely with Cahokia having a unique improvement. Probably a plains type, and probably something that would generate the least amount of controversy and headaches for the devs. I don't recall any controversy with the Shoshone when they were announced, making them a safe choice.

If they wanted to go the safe route with Native Americans they should just go with the Iroquois.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...iscussion-thread.658144/page-57#post-15850428

Apparently Firaxis is unfamiliar with the Streisand Effect. They hotfixed the reference to Kublai Khan and Vietnam out of the game files.

 

[Thenewwwguy]

https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...iscussion-thread.658144/page-57#post-15850428

Apparently Firaxis is unfamiliar with the Streisand Effect. They hotfixed the reference to Kublai Khan and Vietnam out of the game files.

what is the streisand effect?

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

what is the streisand effect?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect

 

[Yubnub]

first of all, Semiramis is almost solely famous for the fact that she was a woman leading at the time, which shocked foreign historians. By all accounts she wasn’t a big personality or an outstanding ruler that I necessarily would think would be a good fit, especially when Ashurbanipal, Tiglath-Pileser III and Sennerscherib are all available options

also, given the way the fanbase reacts to woman leaders, i doubt any woman leader will get by without complaints

What you just said regarding Semiramis is exactly the backlash that every single woman leader in civ has faced: "only famous for being a woman," "not a great ruler," followed by a list of "approved" male leaders. You conveniently forget that Semiramis has been the subject of art, plays, and operas, and has been for centuries. I also wouldn't doubt that the devs would lean on her being semi-mythical to portray her with a big personality.

For the record, this doesn't mean that I think she is very likely to be chosen for Assyria. I do think it she would provide a better contrast for Gilgamesh than the equally beefy Ashurbanipal and would help distinguish Assyria from Sumer, and it would make me happy if she was chosen.

As pointed out I don't think we should give Assyria a female leader, for just being a female, when we have other big personality and more capable leaders to pick from.
The best possible third female leader option, in my mind, would be Theodora like you mentioned.

Unpopular opinion, but I wouldn't mind if 90% of the roster was female.

 

[Jeppetto]

So whether this readme file can be trusted or not depends entirely on whether it was left in the DLC folder intentionally or accidentally.

If it was put there intentionally, then to me it confirms these things will be in the game. They wouldn't make such a dickish move... would they?

My fear is that the file was left in there unintentionally. If that's the case, I actually fear it might make it LESS likely we'll get either of those things. They'd use as example exactly the stuff which will not be in the game.

However, the README file is in full caps and it's the first thing you see when you open the folder. It's hard to see how anyone would miss it and forget to remove it.

Edit: Actually it's not the first thing you see but it's fairly accessible nonetheless.

Is it even still there, anyway? I looked at the files and I have nothing of the sort in there.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Is it even still there, anyway? I looked at the files and I have nothing of the sort in there.

It was hot fixed out yesterday.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

It was hot fixed out yesterday.

For some reason, all of those jokes about hitting "Reply: All" come to mind.

 

[Thenewwwguy]

Unpopular opinion, but I wouldn't mind if 90% of the roster was female.

Neither would I

What you just said regarding Semiramis is exactly the backlash that every single woman leader in civ has faced: "only famous for being a woman," "not a great ruler," followed by a list of "approved" male leaders. You conveniently forget that Semiramis has been the subject of art, plays, and operas, and has been for centuries. I also wouldn't doubt that the devs would lean on her being semi-mythical to portray her with a big personality.

Her cult of personality doesn’t especially excuse the fact that we don’t know of many accomplishments that she achieved, and nonetheless, there are at least 3 assyrian leaders that I think would be more interesting and important leaders

 

[SammyKhalifa]

Neither would I


Her cult of personality doesn’t especially excuse the fact that we don’t know of many accomplishments that she achieved, and nonetheless, there are at least 3 assyrian leaders that I think would be more interesting and important leaders

At the end of the day, though, it's just a graphic. If they do something interesting with it I guess I'm okay . . .