[NFP] Civilization VI: Possible New Civilizations Thread

[Zaarin]

Then they would be consistent with many the leaders in civ who are folk heroes or their cultures. Honestly, the point of a leader in Civ is to be a figurehead for players to talk at and play politics against. Whether they ruled for 3 or 300 years is kind of irrelevant as long as they are accepted as a cultural icon. The Trung Sisters' main draw is quite obviously their status as a symbol of Vietnamese nationalism that has survived for 2000 years.

I can't believe I'm defending them, because frankly I do find a lot of their support, particularly coming from the "civ with two leaders?" camp, to be kind of dumb. But Trung Trac alone would be totally fine as a leader, and in fact one of the last female leader options who wasn't just a female rule, but one who became a sort of national personification.

Though the same arguments that work well for Trung Trac would work pretty well for Le Loi, I think.

 

[Kupe Navigator]

Well, Theodore Roosevelt is not very much liked in Colombia, actually. People there say that his method of achieving the Panama Canal wasn't appropriate, as he just went ahead and invaded Panama and declared the creation of the Republic of Panama independent from Colombia just so he could arrange a deal that would allow full sovereignty for 100 years to the US of the Panama Canal Zone, just because the Colombian Congress didn't want to approve such a deal. Quite anti-democratic. However, that doesn't negate the fact that he did great things for the US and I guess it was a good leader choice, but I can assure you that Bolivar wouldn't be to fond of him if they had met in real life.

Korean people don't like Theodore Roosevelt as well... because of his role in selling Korea out to Japan in Taft-Katsura agreement.

 

[Thenewwwguy]

I'm Vietnamese and I'd prefer to see a communist Vietnam over seeing Trung Trac or the Trung sisters any day. Vietnam dated back at least 1 thousand year BC, the Trung sisters had 1 rebellion and led the country for 3 years, they are remembered for what they symbolize other than them having an actual impact on the course of history. I hope in this case the devs would look somewhere else for inspiration instead of the forum. Maybe if Vietnam is gonna be released with Kublai, Tran Nhan Tong, who led the country against 2 out of 3 Mongolian invasions, should be the leader. Literally anyone but the Trung sisters.
As much as I want Justinian I to lead Byzantium or a new leader for Portugal other than Maria I, if Theodora and Maria come back to fill the 3 female leader quota per expansion, so that Vietnam won't be led by the Trung sisters, I'm down with it.

I’m actually inclined to agree. I think it would be really interesting to see a communist leader of Vietnam and the Trung sisters are massively overhyped here. They didn’t successfully gain independence and their reign ended because they killed themselves bcs they lost. Plus, they weren’t even ethnically vietnamese. Like zaarin suggested, in that regard, Le Loi and Ngo Quyen qualify just as much as Trung Trac, and doesn’t have the potential to be ruined by being 1 of 2 leaders simultaneously leading a civ.

Ugh, speaking of civs with long histories, I'd rather not have Byzantium than have the return of Justinian or Theodora. The only way I want Byzantium is if it has a later leader--like Alexios I Komnenos or Basil II. Otherwise, we're well-stocked on Classical Greeks at this point.

Same. The Byzantines peaked in the Medieval Era, and Basil or Alexios would have to be the best leader to depict them in that regard. Irene of Athens, who i saw mentioned here before, would be a good medieval byz leader for ppl who want to see Theodora since she’s a woman leader of Byzantium

 

[PhoenicianGold]

Though the same arguments that work well for Trung Trac would work pretty well for Le Loi, I think.

Well, except the female argument.

At this point, the Trung Sisters have been pushed so hard by the fans for years, I can't imagine the devs going with anyone but Trung Trac.

 

[DogeEnricoDandolo]

Then they would be consistent with many the leaders in civ who are folk heroes or their cultures. Honestly, the point of a leader in Civ is to be a figurehead for players to talk at and play politics against. Whether they ruled for 3 or 300 years is kind of irrelevant as long as they are accepted as a cultural icon. The Trung Sisters' main draw is quite obviously their status as a symbol of Vietnamese nationalism that has survived for 2000 years.

I can't believe I'm defending them, because frankly I do find a lot of their support, particularly coming from the "civ with two leaders?" camp, to be kind of dumb. But Trung Trac alone would be totally fine as a leader, and in fact one of the last female leader options who wasn't just a female rule, but one who became a sort of national personification.

I can see where you are coming from (I actually cannot agree more the "2 leaders" argument is actually pretty dumb, and super unlikely considering firaxis has to recycle animations for previous leaders), but then for nations with long histories, it is quite easy to find a wide array of leaders who are cultural icons, so whatever role the Trung sisters can fill, you can easily find someone else that can fill the same shoes. Of course I am glad with the representation, even when the leader is eventually revealed to be Trung Trac, but then I guess this is just to make the first experience more wholesome that we have someone more prominent. I guess the only reason most people on here suggesting the Trung sisters was because of the popular civ 5 mod + the forum likes unusual choices (like 2 sisters leading the country), not because these 2 sisters are so famous worldwide that their names are immediately associated with Vietnam.

 

[Thenewwwguy]

I can see where you are coming from (I actually cannot agree more the "2 leaders" argument is actually pretty dumb, and super unlikely considering firaxis has to recycle animations for previous leaders), but then for nations with long histories, it is quite easy to find a wide array of leaders who are cultural icons, so whatever role the Trung sisters can fill, you can easily find someone else that can fill the same shoes. Of course I am glad with the representation, even when the leader is eventually revealed to be Trung Trac, but then I guess this is just to make the first experience more wholesome that we have someone more prominent. I guess the only reason most people on here suggesting the Trung sisters was because of the popular civ 5 mod + the forum likes unusual choices (like 2 sisters leading the country), not because these 2 sisters are so famous worldwide that their names are immediately associated with Vietnam.

when did Ho Chi Minh die? Wilhelmina died in 1970 i believe and she’s the most recent leader in the game. I can’t imagine they’ll go any more recent than that

edit: wilhelmina died in 1962, ho chi minh in 1969. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to say he’s an acceptable option

 

[DogeEnricoDandolo]

when did Ho Chi Minh die? Wilhelmina died in 1970 i believe and she’s the most recent leader in the game. I can’t imagine they’ll go any more recent than that

He died in 1969. Since he is the communist leader, he is basically the personality cult in Vietnam. If they truly want someone who is fondly remembered by the people of that nation, that should be the choice. Or Tran Nhan Tong, cuz he fits the theme with Kublai.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

I can see where you are coming from (I actually cannot agree more the "2 leaders" argument is actually pretty dumb, and super unlikely considering firaxis has to recycle animations for previous leaders), but then for nations with long histories, it is quite easy to find a wide array of leaders who are cultural icons, so whatever role the Trung sisters can fill, you can easily find someone else that can fill the same shoes. Of course I am glad with the representation, even when the leader is eventually revealed to be Trung Trac, but then I guess this is just to make the first experience more wholesome that we have someone more prominent. I guess the only reason most people on here suggesting the Trung sisters was because of the popular civ 5 mod + the forum likes unusual choices (like 2 sisters leading the country), not because these 2 sisters are so famous worldwide that their names are immediately associated with Vietnam.

I agree, I think the Trung snowball started with the Civ V mod, and it might even be because of the gimmicky sisters angle that it became a more highly requested civ than Burma which was an actual empire three times over. So in that respect, I think it only fair to give Trung Trac her time in the first civ game which is expressly going out of its way to include more female representation (how many women did we have in V? Like six?).

What I suspect is that if the Trung sisters can get Vietnam's foot in the door, then two things will happen. One, is that the devs can then have a basis to deviate from and include a male leader in VII. Two, is that the fans will now have a basis to speculate from and realize that, as they do with many civs, there is room for improvement in how the civ is represented, and that hopefully the points you make will resurface and circulate to the point that the devs take notice.

 

[DogeEnricoDandolo]

I agree, I think the Trung snowball started with the Civ V mod, and it might even be because of the gimmicky sisters angle that it became a more highly requested civ than Burma which was an actual empire three times over. So in that respect, I think it only fair to give Trung Trac her time in the first civ game which is expressly going out of its way to include more female representation (how many women did we have in V? Like six?).

What I suspect is that if the Trung sisters can get Vietnam's foot in the door, then two things will happen. One, is that the devs can then have a basis to deviate from and include a male leader in VII. Two, is that the fans will now have a basis to speculate from and realize that, as they do with many civs, there is room for improvement in how the civ is represented, and that hopefully the points you make will resurface and circulate to the point that the devs take notice.

Yeah like I said, I just want the experience to be more wholesome, but overall glad with just the representation. Making through to a civ game is a huge step for later entries, like Poland, Brazil or Indonesia all made it back to civ6 in the base game/first few DLCs after making a debut in civ5.
We had 9 female leaders in 5, right now have 15 in civ6, if the "3 female leaders per expansion" is true, we will be looking at a total of 17.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I’m actually inclined to agree. I think it would be really interesting to see a communist leader of Vietnam and the Trung sisters are massively overhyped here. They didn’t successfully gain independence and their reign ended because they killed themselves bcs they lost. Plus, they weren’t even ethnically vietnamese. Like zaarin suggested, in that regard, Le Loi and Ngo Quyen qualify just as much as Trung Trac, and doesn’t have the potential to be ruined by being 1 of 2 leaders simultaneously leading a civ.

To me the problem with him is he definitely is too recent and as mentioned earlier that any really modern leader might be too controversial, especially those that have not been gone for too long.

I still don't believe that both Trung Sisters would appear on the leader screen they did go with Trung Trac. We aren't getting three leaders in the pack.

 

[Thenewwwguy]

I still don't believe that both Trung Sisters would appear on the leader screen they did go with Trung Trac. We aren't getting three leaders in the pack.

the trung sisters’ popularity in civ 5 probably did stem from the fact that they were unique and gimmicky in the sense that they did 2 leaders on one screen. Trung Trac alone probably doesn’t hold the appeal for the fans who desperately want the trung sisters. I wouldn’t put it past firaxis to ruin the civ by doing it.

To me the problem with him is he definitely is too recent and as mentioned earlier that any really modern leader might be too controversial, especially those that have not been gone for too long.

agree. I don’t think he’ll show up bcs of controversy, but I personally would like him as vietnam’s leader

 

[Kupe Navigator]

the trung sisters’ popularity in civ 5 probably did stem from the fact that they were unique and gimmicky in the sense that they did 2 leaders on one screen. Trung Trac alone probably doesn’t hold the appeal for the fans who desperately want the trung sisters. I wouldn’t put it past firaxis to ruin the civ by doing it.



agree. I don’t think he’ll show up bcs of controversy, but I personally would like him as vietnam’s leader

Also having him kinda opens a messy can of worms about having a Communist leader who is seen as Pater Patriae... yeah I am looking at you Mao!

 

[DogeEnricoDandolo]

Also having him kinda opens a messy can of worms about having a Communist leader who is seen as Pater Patriae... yeah I am looking at you Mao!

the trung sisters’ popularity in civ 5 probably did stem from the fact that they were unique and gimmicky in the sense that they did 2 leaders on one screen. Trung Trac alone probably doesn’t hold the appeal for the fans who desperately want the trung sisters. I wouldn’t put it past firaxis to ruin the civ by doing it.
agree. I don’t think he’ll show up bcs of controversy, but I personally would like him as vietnam’s leader

Even as a Communist leader, I don't think HCM bears the same amount of notoriety that Mao or Stalin had (or maybe I'm just brainwashed because the first few years of my life spent in Vietnam before moving to Canada haha), so I don't think he will be a complete disaster if Firaxis wants to go in that direction, but overall, their leader choice has been on the safe side of things since civ4.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

Yeah like I said, I just want the experience to be more wholesome, but overall glad with just the representation. Making through to a civ game is a huge step for later entries, like Poland, Brazil or Indonesia all made it back to civ6 in the base game/first few DLCs after making a debut in civ5.
We had 9 female leaders in 5, right now have 15 in civ6, if the "3 female leaders per expansion" is true, we will be looking at a total of 17.

Ah, I forgot Isabella, Theodora, and Boudicca. Also, quite disappointing that V only had one-and-a-half female leaders outside of Europe (where Dido still looked very uh...whitewashed). Now we have Tomyris, kinda-Cleo, Amanitore, Gitarja, Seondeok, kinda-Tamar, definitely-now-Dido, Six Sky, and likely Trung Trac. And of the European ladies we have several controversial selections or unpopular archetypes like Kristina, CdM, Gorgo, Eleanor. That's a massive improvement on representing overall diversity.

I'm half-hoping for four women in NFP, but I recognize that is unlikely, especially if a second season is planned because there are only so many strong options left to spread around. Theodora/Irene, Zenobia/Shammuramat, Maria/Isabella, Diyha/Sayyida, longshot Olga or Cixi/Zetian alt leaders, maaaaybe Matilda or Margaret or Nur Jahan or Idia and the list just reaches more and more into the improbable like Liliuokalani, Arwa, Jigonhsasee, Ana Nzinga, Maria Teresa ... The options are pretty slim because there are only a few civs/regions with any notable female figureheads left.

 

[8housesofelixir]

Ah, I forgot Isabella, Theodora, and Boudicca. Also, quite disappointing that V only had one-and-a-half female leaders outside of Europe (where Dido still looked very uh...whitewashed). Now we have Tomyris, kinda-Cleo, Amanitore, Gitarja, Seondeok, kinda-Tamar, definitely-now-Dido, Six Sky, and likely Trung Trac. And of the European ladies we have several controversial selections or unpopular archetypes like Kristina, CdM, Gorgo, Eleanor. That's a massive improvement on representing overall diversity.

I'm half-hoping for four women in NFP, but I recognize that is unlikely, especially if a second season is planned because there are only so many strong options left to spread around. Theodora/Irene, Zenobia/Shammuramat, Maria/Isabella, Diyha/Sayyida, longshot Olga or Cixi/Zetian alt leaders, maaaaybe Matilda or Margaret or Nur Jahan or Idia and the list just reaches more and more into the improbable like Liliuokalani, Arwa, Jigonhsasee, Ana Nzinga, Maria Teresa ... The options are pretty slim because there are only a few civs/regions with any notable female figureheads left.

Liliuokalani will be an interesting cultural-focused leader, who was an actual accomplished songwriter. (I love her works, maybe she can also become a new great musician.)

I would also like to point out that Cixi is hardly a popular - if not deeply unpopular - leader in the Chinese context, very much the opposite of Wu Zetian, and I think her chance of being considered as an in-game leader is very unlikely.

 

[Thenewwwguy]

In terms of Maria Theresa, I mentioned their before, but I wouldn’t be opposed, nor do I think it’s incorrect, to make her an alt for Germany, given civ 6 germany clearly represents the germanosphere/HRE

 

[PhoenicianGold]

Liliuokalani will be an interesting cultural-focused leader, who was an actual accomplished songwriter. (I love her works, maybe she can also become a new great musician.)

I think she's the obvious choice for a Hawaiian leader if we get a second Polynesian civ. But that is so unlikely given how the Maori were designed...at best I can only imagine Hawaii being a Maori clone with some different leader abilities...

I would also like to point out that Cixi is hardly a popular - if not deeply unpopular - leader in the Chinese context, very much the opposite of Wu Zetian, and I think her chance of being considered as an in-game leader is very unlikely.

As observed earlier in this thread, many of the leaders were villainous in some respect, and for all of her unpopularity there has been a lot of retrospective scrutiny of where that reputation came from and how much of it was unsubstantiated smearing. Also, Kristina.

I think her chances of being considered are quite likely given that the high point dynasties in Chinese history are the Qin, Tang, Yuan, and Qing, and of those the Yuan and Qing differentiate more from the Qin both temporally and culturally. Rest assured that if the devs wanted a Mauryan leader for India and an Occitan leader for England, and now have a Mongolian leader for China, they were definitely looking at Manchurian options as well and were considering prioritizing that over a return of Wu Zetian. Also, again, Kristina.

If anything, I think her chances largely hinge on to what extent she overlaps as an archetype with CdM, and if the devs would want to steer away from it because she's too similar, or lean into it because they can just reuse CdM's animations.

In terms of Maria Theresa, I mentioned their before, but I wouldn’t be opposed, nor do I think it’s incorrect, to make her an alt for Germany, given civ 6 germany clearly represents the germanosphere/HRE

Except the German city list avoids Austria. But hey I'd support this if it means we don't get a separate Austria civ.

EDIT: Shower theory of the day: Leader Agendas named after different polities/empires were planned as secondary rather than primary leaders.

* France: CdM - Black Queen; Eleanor - Angevin Empire
* England: Victoria - Sun Never Sets; Eleanor - Angevin Empire
* India: Gandhi - Peacekeeper; Chandragupta - Mauryan Empire
* Greece: Gorgo - With Your Shield or on It; Pericles - Delian League
* Arabia: ___ - ???; Saladin - Ayyubid Dynasty

With that I predict that Kublai Khan's leader agenda will be Yuan Dynasty, and that Saladin was initially planned as a second leader but then swapped in as the primary leader for Arabia.

 

[8housesofelixir]

As observed earlier in this thread, many of the leaders were villainous in some respect, and for all of her unpopularity there has been a lot of retrospective scrutiny of where that reputation came from and how much of it was unsubstantiated smearing. Also, Kristina.

I don't think Kristina can reach the unpopularity that Cixi received in China. Kristina did abdicate the throne and caused a "betrayal" image. Still, she also had the image of a book-lover, fond of new knowledge and high culture, which became her civ ability - there is a significant positive side of her. On the other hand, Cixi is basically being remembered as a ruler who misappropriated the funds of the navy, put an end to the modernization reform, executed the reformers, try to declare war on all the nations in the world, and received a humiliating defeat as a result. In general, she is usually considered as who kicked Qing/China out of the path of modernization, that's a very different image compared to Kristina ("Minerva of the North"), CdM (patronage of arts), or Seondeok (patronage of religion and astrology).

I am not necessarily saying she is "bad" at ruling a country and shouldn't be considered. Cixi's strategy of ruling is actually very adequate for a ruler who bears Inner Asian traditions, who would prefer land power over naval power (therefore ignore the navy) and insecure about conquered people's rise in power (all the reformers are Han Chinese, and they did try to overthrown her, so Cixi fought back). Viewing all foreign counties as uncivilized barbarians is also a tradition of Chinese rulers (we did see ourselves as the center of the world before beaten up by the British, you know). However, Cixi already lived in the modern era; all these traditional strategies, no matter how effective they were in the past thousand years, became obsolete in the 19th century. She continued these strategies, together with her unwillingness of reform, and failed miserably.

And as a result, Cixi's anti-reform, anti-modernization position could lead to a design problem: currently, many of the modern leaders we have are reformers - especially Teddy, Pedro, Menelik, less so but still Curtain, Laurier. Menelik, the only non-western modern leader currently in the game (let's just left Gandhi out of this discussion), has his ability themed around modernization (Council of Ministers). How would an anti-modernization non-western modern leader fit into a progressive narrative is a serious question. Anti-colonialism is also out of the question as Cixi didn't mind colonizing Xinjiang under her rule as part of the "preferring land power" strategy (Qing is still an Empire at that time).

I'm Chinese, so I'm certainly biased here; and as far as I can tell, Cixi wouldn't have a great appeal to the Chinese market/community. Moreover, she would hardly fit into the current theme of the leaders. So I still think Cixi as an alt leader is very less likely.

I think her chances of being considered are quite likely given that the high point dynasties in Chinese history are the Qin, Tang, Yuan, and Qing, and of those the Yuan and Qing differentiate more from the Qin both temporally and culturally. Rest assured that if the devs wanted a Mauryan leader for India and an Occitan leader for England, and now have a Mongolian leader for China, they were definitely looking at Manchurian options as well and were considering prioritizing that over a return of Wu Zetian. Also, again, Kristina.

That's a massive wall of texts trying to comment on Cixi, so let's talk about something more relaxed: In terms of the conquest dynasties you have mentioned, there is a 3rd "foreign" dynasty of China - Tang. Tang rulers are not ethnically "Chinese", and have introduced many political and cultural traditions that were very different from those of the previous dynasties, such as the heavy use of the foreign legion (An Lushan belongs to here). Early Tang emperors also have the title of Tengri Khan ("Khan of Heaven" in Turkic languages) when they incorporated many Turkic tribes/Sogdian city-states under their rule.

The problem of taking this as a game design is that, the Tang rulers were from obscure ethnic origins (probably Xianbei, but Xianbei is already an inhomogeneous group), and we cannot invent a nomadic civ out of thin air.

In the end, I think the best alt leader to fit the theme of conquest dynasties is still Kublai Khan. As for Qing, technically, every Qing ruler after Hong Taiji is the co-ruler of Mongolia, so that's a wide range of choices.

Edit: Typo. Too much words.

 

[LoneRebel]

Liliuokalani will be an interesting cultural-focused leader, who was an actual accomplished songwriter. (I love her works, maybe she can also become a new great musician.)

Lili'uokalani already is one of the Great Musicians in VI, if I'm not very much mistaken.

 

[8housesofelixir]

Lili'uokalani already is one of the Great Musicians in VI, if I'm not very much mistaken.

Oh yes, my mistake. I don't really notice what great musician I'm getting.