[NFP] Civilization VI: Possible New Civilizations Thread

Somali civ is another good option. The sultanates like Ifat, Adal, Ajuran and Geledi were also important trading states, plus a more militaristic element than Swahili, that we can see on their rivalry with Ethiopians and their strong resistance to later european colonial powers.
 
Somali civ is another good option. The sultanates like Ifat, Adal, Ajuran and Geledi were also important trading states, plus a more militaristic element than Swahili, that we can see on their rivalry with Ethiopians and their strong resistance to later european colonial powers.
i’m definitely for a somali civ, although i will make a specification that Mogadishu was often allied with various swahili city states or outright part of swahili confederacies despite not being swahili itself
 
i’m definitely for a somali civ, although i will make a specification that Mogadishu was often allied with various swahili city states or outright part of swahili confederacies despite not being swahili itself

I think Mogadishu is a fantastic choice for a city-state. Probably my most wanted new city-state on the African continent.

I would be happy if we just got Swahili-by-way-of-Oman this time around, in the same way that we got Berbers-by-way-of-Morocco last time. For one, Civ's pattern of approaching new regions appears to involve starting broad, then refining the idea with later installments, so it wouldn't surprise me if they went with the larger idea of Oman for their first visit to that part of the world. For two, it feels really weird to leave Arabia as the only major representative of Islamic empires and Oman would help with that the same way Morocco did in V.

I just have a very Oman feeling about everything, it just seems to ride that happy line between being new compared to V, but still very familiar and keeping the roster mostly equivalent to V's, while also technically covering some Swahili flavor and being a fairly popular V mod. I wouldn't be unhappy with a Swahili civ, but I think particularly with the pivot away from Morocco that VI is probably Oman's time.
 
Another benefit of choosing either Oman or Yemen would be actually having a civ on the Arabian Peninsula since, you know, Arabia's off in Egypt. :p (Frankly, Saladin reigned for quite some time from Damascus so I would have made that his capital.)
 
Another benefit of choosing either Oman or Yemen would be actually having a civ on the Arabian Peninsula since, you know, Arabia's off in Egypt. :p (Frankly, Saladin reigned for quite some time from Damascus so I would have made that his capital.)

I still think the choice was deliberate because they actually were keeping space open for Oman or Yemen. Arabia's territory under Saladin very nicely dovetails with either of those choices (imo better with Oman, if we consider Aksum impliedly part of Ethiopia).

(I also wonder if Saladin wasn't given Damascus to keep space open for Phoenicia/Assyria. But at that point I guess it didn't really matter where he started because being shoved up against Egypt is just as bad)
 
I still think the choice was deliberate because they actually were keeping space open for Oman or Yemen. Arabia's territory under Saladin very nicely dovetails with either of those choices (imo better with Oman, if we consider Aksum impliedly part of Ethiopia).

(I also wonder if Saladin wasn't given Damascus to keep space open for Phoenicia/Assyria. But at that point I guess it didn't really matter where he started because being shoved up against Egypt is just as bad)
I mean, from a TSL perspective, Saladin could not possibly be more in the way of another civ than he is right now. :p Even if he started in Damascus he'd be less in the way of Dido, Gilgamesh, Assyria, or a hypothetical Omani/Yemeni leader than he is currently for Cleopatra. In fact, in Damascus he'd be less in the way of Zenobia than he currently is for Cleopatra. :lol:
 
I don’t like the idea of Oman specifically to hit two birds with one stone bcs the Swahili coast being made a part of the Omani sultanate is a very unique part of history that represents Oman really well but not the Swahili. I’d imagine that represents more potential as a rotating civ option, the way Mali/Songhai or Thailand/Khmer have the past 3 games.

That said, I don’t think Morocco represents the berbers, especially considered they were significantly less berber-ified as a nation compared to their neighbors: Algeria and Tunisia are basically solely berber in ethnicity and have retained far more of the language and culture, and Mauritiana as well as Mali have been heavily influenced by their Tuareg populations, while Morocco is decidedly more arabized and has significantly less berber culture or history than the other nations in the region
 
That said, I don’t think Morocco represents the berbers
Morocco definitely has a strong Berber history. The Almoravids and especially the Almohads were Berbers, and both originated in and were centered in Morocco.
 
Morocco definitely has a strong Berber history. The Almoravids and especially the Almohads were Berbers, and both originated in and were centered in Morocco.
true, perhaps i’m only considering morocco from a more modern lens
 
I don’t like the idea of Oman specifically to hit two birds with one stone bcs the Swahili coast being made a part of the Omani sultanate is a very unique part of history that represents Oman really well but not the Swahili. I’d imagine that represents more potential as a rotating civ option, the way Mali/Songhai or Thailand/Khmer have the past 3 games.

Probably something along those lines. And I wasn't saying that Oman would hit Swahili particularly well, just that it would be expected to carry double duty if it were included.

That said, I don’t think Morocco represents the berbers, especially considered they were significantly less berber-ified as a nation compared to their neighbors: Algeria and Tunisia are basically solely berber in ethnicity and have retained far more of the language and culture, and Mauritiana as well as Mali have been heavily influenced by their Tuareg populations, while Morocco is decidedly more arabized and has significantly less berber culture or history than the other nations in the region

As far as V treated it, Morocco was the berber civ with a berber cavalry unit. That is generally the analogy I am trying to draw for how Oman would likely be implemented.

Again, I am not saying Oman would be necessarily elegant, at least insofar as representing the Swahili coast well. But there do appear to be a lot of signs indicating its chances are higher than the Swahili for VI and I would not be surprised if it appeared. At this point, I would be happy with anything bringing attention to the region and spurring discussion so that even if we don't get Swahili this time, they will likely appear in VII.
 
Probably something along those lines. And I wasn't saying that Oman would hit Swahili particularly well, just that it would be expected to carry double duty if it were included.



As far as V treated it, Morocco was the berber civ with a berber cavalry unit. That is generally the analogy I am trying to draw for how Oman would likely be implemented.

Again, I am not saying Oman would be necessarily elegant, at least insofar as representing the Swahili coast well. But there do appear to be a lot of signs indicating its chances are higher than the Swahili for VI and I would not be surprised if it appeared. At this point, I would be happy with anything bringing attention to the region and spurring discussion so that even if we don't get Swahili this time, they will likely appear in VII.
i will say, if Said bin Sultan is the Omani leader, Zanzibar would be a possible capital option (in addition to Muscat, of course) and would therefore put more focus on the swahili aspect of the Omani Empire.
 
i will say, if Said bin Sultan is the Omani leader, Zanzibar would be a possible capital option (in addition to Muscat, of course) and would therefore put more focus on the swahili aspect of the Omani Empire.
Even if it is historical, I'd be surprised if Firaxis would place a non-African ruler in Sub-Saharan Africa. I'd expect an Omani sultan to rule from Oman just so Firaxis didn't have to face accusations of "whitewashing."
 
true, perhaps i’m only considering morocco from a more modern lens
That's why I would like to see something different for North Africa this time, if we do get something. Even if the Moroccans had some Berber influence, to me it felt more like another Arabian civ even with the Berber UU.
 
Even if it is historical, I'd be surprised if Firaxis would place a non-African ruler in Sub-Saharan Africa. I'd expect an Omani sultan to rule from Oman just so Firaxis didn't have to face accusations of "whitewashing."
given the relative obscurity of the Omani empire as well as Said bin Sultan i can’t imagine him leading from Zanzibar would be controversial. But Muscat is more ‘omani’ so i would imagine it makes that more likely to be the Omani capital

obviously i’d prefer the Swahili as a civ in their own right given the successes of Swahili city-states in their own capacities rather than vassals of Oman, but I have to concur with @PhoenicianGold that at this moment in time, I’d be more inclined to expect Oman in this DLC pack (if they don’t show up, i think they’d be level with the Swahili in likelihood again)
 
Even if it is historical, I'd be surprised if Firaxis would place a non-African ruler in Sub-Saharan Africa. I'd expect an Omani sultan to rule from Oman just so Firaxis didn't have to face accusations of "whitewashing."
given the relative obscurity of the Omani empire as well as Said bin Sultan i can’t imagine him leading from Zanzibar would be controversial. But Muscat is more ‘omani’ so i would imagine it makes that more likely to be the Omani capital

obviously i’d prefer the Swahili as a civ in their own right given the successes of Swahili city-states in their own capacities rather than vassals of Oman, but I have to concur with @PhoenicianGold that at this moment in time, I’d be more inclined to expect Oman in this DLC pack (if they don’t show up, i think they’d be level with the Swahili in likelihood again)

Also, to my understanding the Swahili coast is fairly Islamified after centuries of occupation, so I think it's roughly as proper as representing the Maghreb with a west Arabian caliphate? If anything, I suspect that if it could be injected with more Swahili flavor, it would feel even less like "second Arabia" than Morocco did.

We do also have two Bantu civs already, so while the Swahili would be awesome I personally would prioritize getting a second Arabic-speaking civ on the map (and Mali doesn't really count in my book).
 
Also, to my understanding the Swahili coast is fairly Islamified after centuries of occupation, so I think it's roughly as proper as representing the Maghreb with a west Arabian caliphate? If anything, I suspect that if it could be injected with more Swahili flavor, it would feel even less like "second Arabia" than Morocco did.

We do also have two Bantu civs already, so while the Swahili would be awesome I personally would prioritize getting a second Arabic-speaking civ on the map (and Mali doesn't really count in my book).
the swahili coast has been muslim since far before omani occupation. Kilwa and Zanzibar were muslim far before then. Islam was a big part of Swahili culture, and their folk religion is far less influential in their history than islam, especially considering other african cultures.

I don’t think it’s either or, and bringing in Yemen in addition to Swahili would bring the best of both worlds: another arabic speaking civ as well as one of the Indian Ocean’s most influential trading empires
 
the swahili coast has been muslim since far before omani occupation. Kilwa and Zanzibar were muslim far before then. Islam was a big part of Swahili culture, and their folk religion is far less influential in their history than islam, especially considering other african cultures.

That's basically what I meant, is that the incorporation of the Swahili into the Omani empire was a lot more natural than the Arabic takeover of the largely non-Islamic Maghreb.

I don’t think it’s either or, and bringing in Yemen in addition to Swahili would bring the best of both worlds: another arabic speaking civ as well as one of the Indian Ocean’s most influential trading empires

I think it probably is at this point for VI. We still have two very large gaps on the African map to fill and that's ignoring large regions of potential in North America, Central Eurasia, and Southeast Asia, not to mention players clamoring for Portugal, Byzantium, Italy, and Assyria/Babylon. I can see the devs devoting resources to one civ along the Swahili/Arabic coast; I am quite dubious that they will want to make a second civ when they haven't even tested how popular one civ might be.

These things appear to happen in stages. You get the "big" culture first (England, Egypt, Greece, Rome), then when players want more you add spin-offs in later titles (Scotland, Nubia, Macedonia, Byzantium). You get the large, space-filling cultural admixture blob first (Celts, Polynesia, Shoshone, Morocco), then once players are used to it you refine it into a more specific culture (Scotland, Maori, Comanche?, Numidia). It's a slow, years-long process of experimentation and feedback, and so far the only real feedback Firaxis has at all for that region is that Oman is a popular mod for V and happens to serve as a really good big/blob culture to start from, while Swahili and Yemen aren't even on the modders' radar (well except Suk's civ VI mod, which we can't know what effect a later mod had on the development process and imo Suk's mod highlights how difficult it is to come up with a strong Swahili design).

Point being, many of the new additions to the roster were very conservative, safe choices. Scotland, Canada, Australia, Norway, Gran Colombia, and Vietnam were all within the top few pages of most popular/subscribed V mods, as were Greece and India splits. Cree, Kongo, Hungary, and a Polynesia split were a tad further down but still fairly popular. Nubia is really just an Egypt spinoff so that was guaranteed to be reasonably popular (and was still a mod that was somewhat subscribed to). Georgia was a meme. I think the only new civ which was actually a risk was the Mapuche, and that was because a redditor historian approached the devs with a lot of material and made a case for them. But on the whole, the devs have been sticking to civs which were proven to be reasonably popular through the V mods, effectively six+ years of free, self-organized market research on what players wanted to see most in VI.

I'm not saying Swahili or Yemen wouldn't make great civs (although in both cases I think the research to flesh them out would be considerably more onerous for the devs than for Oman which just generally has more to work with). What I am saying, however, is that the devs seem to me to be almost religiously vetting new civs against the data that they have in an effort to maximize appeal and sales. As far as their product is concerned, their shortlist has always been limited, with very few exceptions, to popular V mods. From their perspective, they have virtually no incentive to even consider Yemen--Oman or otherwise--when the playerbase never cared about Yemen enough in six years to create a mod for V. This doesn't prevent Yemen from standing a chance eventually, but barring becoming a meme or some specialized historian reaching out to Firaxis, Yemen still has potentially years to go before it rises in the playerbase's consciousness to the point that the developers--at least under the apparent methodology of choosing VI civs--feel it is a safe, marketable choice. The edifice is too big and the method is too reliable to sacrifice for the sake of smaller cultural interest civs without data showing that this is what players will buy.

(to that end, I do somewhat fear for the Berbers, in that Berber mods were never very popular. Granted, players already had Morocco and maybe that was enough, and the devs still feel the need to put something Maghreb in to fill the Moroccan void. But the Berbers would be relying more on Moroccan popularity as substitute for V mod popularity and I'm not sure how far that goes. Also, the American southwest was pretty spotty on mod quality and popularity so our speculation in that area is also generally unsupported by V mod market research, although again I'm not sure how far "substitution" goes if they went with the Navajo or Apache over Comanche--it's native tribes especially like the Cree/Mapuche/Maori that I think the devs also lean a bit on tribal member population size in absence of clearer indicators.)
 
That's basically what I meant, is that the incorporation of the Swahili into the Omani empire was a lot more natural than the Arabic takeover of the largely non-Islamic Maghreb.



I think it probably is at this point for VI. We still have two very large gaps on the African map to fill and that's ignoring large regions of potential in North America, Central Eurasia, and Southeast Asia, not to mention players clamoring for Portugal, Byzantium, Italy, and Assyria/Babylon. I can see the devs devoting resources to one civ along the Swahili/Arabic coast; I am quite dubious that they will want to make a second civ when they haven't even tested how popular one civ might be.

These things appear to happen in stages. You get the "big" culture first (England, Egypt, Greece, Rome), then when players want more you add spin-offs in later titles (Scotland, Nubia, Macedonia, Byzantium). You get the large, space-filling cultural admixture blob first (Celts, Polynesia, Shoshone, Morocco), then once players are used to it you refine it into a more specific culture (Scotland, Maori, Comanche?, Numidia). It's a slow, years-long process of experimentation and feedback, and so far the only real feedback Firaxis has at all for that region is that Oman is a popular mod for V and happens to serve as a really good big/blob culture to start from, while Swahili and Yemen aren't even on the modders' radar (well except Suk's civ VI mod, which we can't know what effect a later mod had on the development process and imo Suk's mod highlights how difficult it is to come up with a strong Swahili design).

Point being, many of the new additions to the roster were very conservative, safe choices. Scotland, Canada, Australia, Norway, Gran Colombia, and Vietnam were all within the top few pages of most popular/subscribed V mods, as were Greece and India splits. Cree, Kongo, Hungary, and a Polynesia split were a tad further down but still fairly popular. Nubia is really just an Egypt spinoff so that was guaranteed to be reasonably popular (and was still a mod that was somewhat subscribed to). Georgia was a meme. I think the only new civ which was actually a risk was the Mapuche, and that was because a redditor historian approached the devs with a lot of material and made a case for them. But on the whole, the devs have been sticking to civs which were proven to be reasonably popular through the V mods, effectively six+ years of free, self-organized market research on what players wanted to see most in VI.

I'm not saying Swahili or Yemen wouldn't make great civs (although in both cases I think the research to flesh them out would be considerably more onerous for the devs than for Oman which just generally has more to work with). What I am saying, however, is that the devs seem to me to be almost religiously vetting new civs against the data that they have in an effort to maximize appeal and sales. As far as their product is concerned, their shortlist has always been limited, with very few exceptions, to popular V mods. From their perspective, they have virtually no incentive to even consider Yemen--Oman or otherwise--when the playerbase never cared about Yemen enough in six years to create a mod for V. This doesn't prevent Yemen from standing a chance eventually, but barring becoming a meme or some specialized historian reaching out to Firaxis, Yemen still has potentially years to go before it rises in the playerbase's consciousness to the point that the developers--at least under the apparent methodology of choosing VI civs--feel it is a safe, marketable choice. The edifice is too big and the method is too reliable to sacrifice for the sake of smaller cultural interest civs without data showing that this is what players will buy.

(to that end, I do somewhat fear for the Berbers, in that Berber mods were never very popular. Granted, players already had Morocco and maybe that was enough, and the devs still feel the need to put something Maghreb in to fill the Moroccan void. But the Berbers would be relying more on Moroccan popularity as substitute for V mod popularity and I'm not sure how far that goes. Also, the American southwest was pretty spotty on mod quality and popularity so our speculation in that area is also generally unsupported by V mod market research, although again I'm not sure how far "substitution" goes if they went with the Navajo or Apache over Comanche--it's native tribes especially like the Cree/Mapuche/Maori that I think the devs also lean a bit on tribal member population size in absence of clearer indicators.)

all very good points. however, in regards to

well except Suk's civ VI mod, which we can't know what effect a later mod had on the development process and imo Suk's mod highlights how difficult it is to come up with a strong Swahili design).

i will say that the swahili civ 6 mod came out pretty early and is one of the most subscribed civ mods when you don’t consider the civ 5 rerun ones. It’s been out for 3-ish years now if i’m not wrong so i can’t imagine it hasn’t caught the dev’s attention, if not for civ 6, then civ 7
 
If you really want to figure out what Civilizations we may expect, better think what Civilization would fit these mechanics:
1. For every Great Person earned (title/building/district/improvement) receive +1 yield equal to the Great Person's district type.
2. +x Spy capacity. Your cities gain +x benefit per turn when your Spy is in their territory.
3. Whenever an offensive spy mission is successful, you also gain x benefit that the target city earned that turn.
4. x UI can be built inside or outside your borders, and the yields are transferred to your capital. Adds extra yields to the tile equal to the sum of the yields of all adjacent tiles.
And other ideas:
5. A unique district that once built can be moved. It benefits corresponds it's actual position (if adjacent to mountains ads x, if adjacent to river ads y etc.)
6. Coast cities restricted Civ
etc... ;)
7. Cities cannot build districts but earn unique and flexible one
8. Civ with UU that grow with (technologies/buildings/eras/x) and not requires gold upgrade (similar way to vampires or Nihang)
9. Civ with a significant buff to the capital city
10. Civ with unique (government Plaza, Canal, or Diplomatic Quater)
One Civ can match more than one mechanic listed above.
This is way closer to the real game development process than filling map gaps ;)
 
1. For every Great Person earned (title/building/district/improvement) receive +1 yield equal to the Great Person's district type.
Easy, Italy. :D

2. +x Spy capacity. Your cities gain +x benefit per turn when your Spy is in their territory.
3. Whenever an offensive spy mission is successful, you also gain x benefit that the target city earned that turn.
Sounds like something a Navajo Code Talker could do.

4. x UI can be built inside or outside your borders, and the yields are transferred to your capital. Adds extra yields to the tile equal to the sum of the yields of all adjacent tiles.
We've already discussed the possibility of a Feitoria working like that for Portugal.
5. A unique district that once built can be moved. It benefits corresponds it's actual position (if adjacent to mountains ads x, if adjacent to river ads y etc.)
I don't see moveable districts happening.

6. Coast cities restricted Civ
I would have used it for Phoenicia but I honestly don't see this restriction happening.

7. Cities cannot build districts but earn unique and flexible one
I doubt that will happen but I've made a Vietnam design to where they get bonuses more for improvements than building districts.

8. Civ with UU that grow with (technologies/buildings/eras/x) and not requires gold upgrade (similar way to vampires or Nihang)
I don't see this happening considering unless we can find a UU that is used throughout history.

9. Civ with a significant buff to the capital city
Babylon

10. Civ with unique (government Plaza, Canal, or Diplomatic Quater)
That won't happen. The new civs have to be compatible with only the base game.
 
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