[NFP] Civilization VI: Possible New Civilizations Thread

[Arianrhod]

aight let's see the diff

In Civ V but not Civ VI: Assyria, Austria, Babylonia, Carthage, Celts, Denmark, Huns, Iroquois, Morocco, Polynesia, Portugal, Shoshone, Siam, Songhai, Venice
In Civ VI but not V: Australia, Canada, Cree, Gaul, Georgia, Gran Colombia, Hungary, Khmer, Kongo, Macedon, Mali, Maori, Mapuche, Norway, Nubia, Phoenicia, Scotland, Scythia, Sumer, Vietnam

Which ones were probably "exchanges?" I'd say Austria/Hungary, Carthage/Phoenicia, Celts/Gaul, Denmark/Norway, Huns/Scythia, Polynesia/Maori, Siam/Khmer, Songhai/Mali, and Shoshone/Cree. (Or Iroquois, but the Shoshone were less likely to return anyway, so I'll keep things simple.) Most of these were deblobbing (or reblobbing in Phoenicia's case, but still probably a net positive), while a few are just swaps in regions that aren't likely to retain all of their V civilizations. It's probable that Sumer is intended to fill in for one of Assyria or Babylonia, but it's less clear as to which; I'll lean toward Assyria, for the same reason as Iroquois + more Assyrian inspiration in the design.

This means the "hard cuts" without a direct replacement are Babylonia(/Assyria), the Iroquois(/Shoshone), Morocco, Portugal, and Venice. At most two of these will return by the end of the NFP. In exchange for the loss of the remainder, we got Australia, Canada, Georgia, Gran Colombia, Kongo, Macedon, Mapuche, Nubia, Scotland, and Vietnam. There are some pretty good civs there, but I'm not sure that's the lineup I would have chosen personally.

Oh, and F in the chat for the Hittites who have been gone since III. (And I guess a smaller f for the Sioux, who have nominally been gone since II but are essentially the core of IV's weird "Native America" civ.)

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

at least gaul probably won’t exclusively be designed to the bélgica but rather all gauls w/ a belgaen leader



ambiorix will be the leader bcs of the capital choice.

The scots (and their language) were germanic, but their culture was celtic, thanks to pictish and irish influences, and the development of scottish gaelic in the highlands, coastal areas and frontiers. in scotland’s case in game, nothing about its design is celtic besides the bagpipes, and Robert speaking Anglo-Norman surely doesn’t help with that

Firaxis Meeting:
How about the Belgae?
You mean the Belgians? Would people like that?
No I mean the Belgae, who were a tribe that the Romans fought.
Oh, how about we make it Gaul instead but with a Belgae leader so it doesn't infringe on France as much? Plus people actually want a Celtic civ that's not Scotland.
That works.

 

[Thenewwwguy]

I mean, simply Firaxis, go with Vercingetorix, simply less problems for the terminology and Vercingetorix fans xD

unfortunately it appears it’s too late for this. Either we’ll get Ambiorix speaking gaulish (incorrect) or Vercingatorix, Brennus, Dumnorix leading from a capital that wasn’t theirs. Neither is a good outcome, although I would prefer the latter (unless Ambiorix is speaking whatever language he should be speaking)

 

[AaronTBD]

Not as insulting as Sacagawea leading the Sioux in Civ 2.

Did they really do that?!

 

[SMcM]

The scots (and their language) were germanic, but their culture was celtic, thanks to pictish and irish influences, and the development of scottish gaelic in the highlands, coastal areas and frontiers. in scotland’s case in game, nothing about its design is celtic besides the bagpipes, and Robert speaking Anglo-Norman surely doesn’t help with that

Scots are Germanic now because mixing with England, I don't know how far back that goes though. But the original 'Scots' were not Germanic, I don't know where people are getting that from, the 'Scots' were a people who arrived from Ireland in a time when Scotland was Pictish. Maybe Robert is too late, perhaps it could have been a bit more Celtic if they'd gone for Kenneth MacAlipin or something.

I agree with your overall sentiment, but I'm skeptical about Portugal's position after the addition of the Gauls. I think Portugal will yield its place to a second Native American civ.

I do agree that Portugal is unlikely in New Frontier now, we have enough Europeans for one pack probably at this point.

 

[Zaarin]

By Scotland being Germans what do you mean? That they were largely mixed with the English by the time Robert the Bruce lived?

The English were Germanic. The Normans were Germanic. The Norwegians were Germanic. As for Scotland's design, it's 100% Anglo-Norman, 0% Gaelic. There is nothing Celtic about Scotland's in-game depiction. Even the Highlanders are a British regiment.

And what do you mean the Belgae were Germans?

The Belgae were either Gauls who had adopted Germanic culture or Germanic peoples who had adopted certain elements of Gaulish culture. Either way, their cultural affiliation was more Germanic than Celtic.

Also why do we think Ambiorix might be the leader instead of the surely more famous Vercingetorix?

Apparently the capital is Belgic; I didn't spot it myself.

The scots (and their language) were germanic, but their culture was celtic, thanks to pictish and irish influences

Eh, Lowland Scots are pretty much just Anglo-Normans in their culture.

Actually Belgae are always debated, they have strong relation with Germania (Ambiorix was hidden by his Germanian friends), but their names were "Gaulish" (as we consider the geographical zone named by Romans), there is less evidence of the early Roman influence and trades with Belgae, which is one of the settings of the meaning of Gauls ( Gauls being the "romanized" celts, Celts being the settlers in islands which don't get this strong roman influence and later assimilation).

I don't think that distinction is usually made in English. Generally "Gauls" simply refers to the Celtic inhabitants of Gallia, with "Celts" being used to mean anyone who speaks a Celtic language (Gauls, Cisalpine Gauls, Lepontians, Galatians, Celtiberians, Britons, Goidels, etc.). I'm not sure the distinction you make is particularly useful considering the Britons were as thoroughly Romanized as the Gauls once they were conquered. You're right, though, that the exact nature of the Belgae is debated. What's clear, though, is that they were regarded as distinct.

I mean, simply Firaxis, go with Vercingetorix, simply less problems for the terminology and Vercingetorix fans xD

Agreed.

unless Ambiorix is speaking whatever language he should be speaking

Belgic is virtually unknown.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

aight let's see the diff

In Civ V but not Civ VI: Assyria, Austria, Babylonia, Carthage, Celts, Denmark, Huns, Iroquois, Morocco, Polynesia, Portugal, Shoshone, Siam, Songhai, Venice
In Civ VI but not V: Australia, Canada, Cree, Gaul, Georgia, Gran Colombia, Hungary, Khmer, Kongo, Macedon, Mali, Maori, Mapuche, Norway, Nubia, Phoenicia, Scotland, Scythia, Sumer, Vietnam

Which ones were probably "exchanges?" I'd say Austria/Hungary, Carthage/Phoenicia, Celts/Gaul, Denmark/Norway, Huns/Scythia, Polynesia/Maori, Siam/Khmer, Songhai/Mali, and Shoshone/Cree. (Or Iroquois, but the Shoshone were less likely to return anyway, so I'll keep things simple.) Most of these were deblobbing (or reblobbing in Phoenicia's case, but still probably a net positive), while a few are just swaps in regions that aren't likely to retain all of their V civilizations. It's probable that Sumer is intended to fill in for one of Assyria or Babylonia, but it's less clear as to which; I'll lean toward Assyria, for the same reason as Iroquois + more Assyrian inspiration in the design.

This means the "hard cuts" without a direct replacement are Babylonia(/Assyria), the Iroquois(/Shoshone), Morocco, Portugal, and Venice. At most two of these will return by the end of the NFP. In exchange for the loss of the remainder, we got Australia, Canada, Georgia, Gran Colombia, Kongo, Macedon, Mapuche, Nubia, Scotland, and Vietnam. There are some pretty good civs there, but I'm not sure that's the lineup I would have chosen personally.

Oh, and F in the chat for the Hittites who have been gone since III. (And I guess a smaller f for the Sioux, who have nominally been gone since II but are essentially the core of IV's weird "Native America" civ.)

I would say Sumeria was a direct replacement of Babylon, and Assyria remains open as a second Mesopotamian civ. I also feel like Cree/Canada effectively replaced the Iroquois. So the remaining slots that haven't returned/replaced as far as I can tell are Assyria, Morocco, Portugal, Venice, and the Shoshone.

And I'm generally of the agreement that if, in exchange, we got a two Canadian civs, a Celts/Britain split, a Greek split, an Egypt split, plus Australia, GC, Kongo, Mapuche, and Vietnam, then the tradeoff wasn't great Bob.

 

[Thenewwwguy]

Scots are Germanic now because mixing with England, I don't know how far back that goes though. But the original 'Scots' were not Germanic, I don't know where people are getting that from, the 'Scots' were a people who arrived from Ireland in a time when Scotland was Pictish. Maybe Robert is too late, perhaps it could have been a bit more Celtic if they'd gone for Kenneth MacAlipin or something.

Lowland ‘Scots’ has always been germanic, while the Picts and Highland ‘Scottish Gaels’ have always been celtic.

Of course, Robert the Bruce predates the development of ‘english’ or ‘scots’ as we know it and speaks anglo-norman, a germanic language.

Kenneth MacAlipin as a leader of the picts would be fun.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Did they really do that?!

Well in Civ 2 they tried to give every civ a male and female leader. You got into the problem of they had to make up some and the worst offender was Shakala of the Zulu, which was made up entirely by the creators of the game, because they needed a female Zulu leader.
You also had Eleanor Roosevelt leading America and Hippolyta of the Amazons leading Greece.

 

[SMcM]

Shaka's mother was politically important, she would have been a better option than Shakala even.

Also for female leaders- have I missed something, or is Theodora for Byzantium not still a possibility?

 

[Thenewwwguy]

Shaka's mother was politically important, she would have been a better option than Shakala even.

Also for female leaders- have I missed something, or is Theodora for Byzantium not still a possibility?

we saw a white beard. It’s probably Basil

 

[Zaarin]

Of course, Robert the Bruce predates the development of ‘english’ or ‘scots’ as we know it and speaks anglo-norman, a germanic language.

Nope, he speaks Middle English, and Norman is a Romance language.

 

[Jeppetto]

What are the chances Byzantium is led by female leader with stragely renaisance looking collar on her dress, lol? Is it at least 0.01% Because collar is the first thing that came to my mind from that blurry image, the I realized it doesn't make sense, but it might be just strange dress design, right?

 

[Thenewwwguy]

Nope, he speaks Middle English, and Norman is a Romance language.

oop my bad (that’s almost worse though)

 

[SMcM]

Lowland ‘Scots’ has always been germanic, while the Picts and Highland ‘Scottish Gaels’ have always been celtic.

Of course, Robert the Bruce predates the development of ‘english’ or ‘scots’ as we know it and speaks anglo-norman, a germanic language.

Kenneth MacAlipin as a leader of the picts would be fun.

Well that's not correct, Scots referred originally to the Gaels who came from Ireland to Scotland. Kenneth MacAlpin was a ruler from a time when the Scots/Gaels were in power and the Picts were no longer in control, I'm pretty sure he was only nominally ruler of the Picts, so that's silly.

 

[Thenewwwguy]

Well that's not correct, Scots referred originally to the Gaels who came from Ireland to Scotland. Kenneth MacAlpin was a ruler from a time when the Scots/Gaels were in power and the Picts were no longer in control, I'm pretty sure he was only nominally ruler of the Picts, so that's silly.

Scots is the name of the lowland scottish english-adjacent germanic language. Scottish Gaelic is the language of the Scottish highlands, which I presume came from Ireland

 

[SMcM]

Yep, he was supposed to already ruler of Dál Riata (gaels) when he conquered the Picts. So him leading Picts would make no sense, would have to go for someone earlier.

Scots is the name of the lowland scottish english-adjacent germanic language. Scottish Gaelic is the language of the Scottish highlands, which I presume came from Ireland

You're still wrong. Yes, it is. But I'm not talking about Scots the language, I'm talking about the original usage. It referred to the Gaels that came from Ireland. That is where the name Scotland comes from. And the Scots language was then named after the region it became spoken in. There are better sources for this information, but here's what wikipedia says- 'Scotia is a Latin placename derived from Scoti, a Latin name for the Gaels,[1] first attested in the late 3rd century.[1] From the 9th century, its meaning gradually shifted, so that it came to mean only the part of Britain lying north of the Firth of Forth: the Kingdom of Scotland.' Scots originally referred to Gaels, so the origin is not Germanic at all.

 

[Thenewwwguy]

You're still wrong. Yes, it is. But I'm not talking about Scots the language, I'm talking about the original usage. It referred to the Gaels that came from Ireland. That is where the name Scotland comes from. And the Scots language was then named after the region it became spoken in.

according to a cursory look at wikipedia, the scot ethnicity evolved from pictish and gaelic culture fusing

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

What are the chances Byzantium is led by female leader with stragely renaisance looking collar on her dress, lol? Is it at least 0.01% Because collar is the first thing that came to my mind from that blurry image, the I realized it doesn't make sense, but it might be just strange dress design, right?

Considering Renaissance culture didn't reach the Byzantine Empire by the fall of Constantinople I would say rather slim.

 

[SMcM]

according to a cursory look at wikipedia, the scot ethnicity evolved from pictish and gaelic culture fusing

Well that did develop, yes, but originally Scots referred to the Gaels. The Gaels prevailed over the Picts, and that's why the land is named for the Scots.