[NFP] Civilization VI: Possible New Civilizations Thread

[Wielki Hegemon]

My problem is we have the Scots, who are actually Germans, for the Celts, and if Gaul is led by Ambiorix, we have the Belgae, who are actually Germans, for the Celts. Does someone at Firaxis just hate the Celts or something?

No! No! Please, please no more! Good knights who say "Blob" I will buy you a shuruberry. I promise! I can even cut down the tree with a herring, but please stop

 

[SMcM]

we saw a white beard. It’s probably Basil

What point in the video is that at?

 

[Zaarin]

oop my bad (that’s almost worse though)

Not really. English was Robert the Bruce's first language, Norman his second; there is some evidence he was probably proficient in Gaelic.

You're still wrong. Yes, it is. But I'm not talking about Scots the language, I'm talking about the original usage. It referred to the Gaels that came from Ireland. That is where the name Scotland comes from. And the Scots language was then named after the region it became spoken in. There are better sources for this information, but here's what wikipedia says- 'Scotia is a Latin placename derived from Scoti, a Latin name for the Gaels,[1] first attested in the late 3rd century.[1] From the 9th century, its meaning gradually shifted, so that it came to mean only the part of Britain lying north of the Firth of Forth: the Kingdom of Scotland.' Scots originally referred to Gaels, so the origin is not Germanic at all.

This is true, but the Gaels got pushed into the Highlands and Isles by the Anglo-Saxons and then the Normans really early (they sort of fused with the Norse in the Isles).

according to a cursory look at wikipedia, the scot ethnicity evolved from pictish and gaelic culture fusing

Eh, Pictish influence in Scotland is negligible. We don't even have a clear idea of who they were (though evidence is mounting that they were probably P-Celts). For all intents and purposes, they got completely absorbed into the Anglo-Normans on one hand and the Gaels on the other.

Well that did develop, yes, but originally Scots referred to the Gaels. The Gaels prevailed over the Picts, and that's why the land is named for the Scots.

Originally, yes, but by the Late Middle Ages "Scot" meant English-speaking (eventually Scots-speaking) Lowlander, "Gael" meant Gaelic-speaker from the Highlands or the Isles.

 

[SMcM]

Originally, yes, but by the Late Middle Ages "Scot" meant English-speaking (eventually Scots-speaking) Lowlander, "Gael" meant Gaelic-speaker from the Highlands or the Isles.

So essentially you're saying Scotland was already no longer culturally Celtic by Robert the Bruce's time, and so by then it then should be classed as a Germanic civilization?

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

I find it interesting that of the 5 confirmed civs for NFP, 3 have unique districts and 2 have unique improvements. None so far have unique buildings.

 

[Thenewwwguy]

So essentially you're saying Scotland was already no longer culturally Celtic by Robert the Bruce's time, and so by then it then should be classed as a Germanic civilization?

robert wasn’t culturally celtic. I’d still say scotland still has some celtic qualities but it is very germanic in robert’s time and it is now as well

 

[AaronTBD]

Why does it matter if they were Celtic or Germanic? If they had an important role of their society, culture, and history, if many people associate that group with the others, if many in the group thinks they're apart of that group or at least their culture, then why does it matter?

 

[CrabHelmet]

So essentially you're saying Scotland was already no longer culturally Celtic by Robert the Bruce's time, and so by then it then should be classed as a Germanic civilization?

This is very much correct. The Scoto-Norman phase is normally traced back to Malcolm III of Scotland (Malcolm Canmore), who ruled from 1058 to 1093, and who predominantly used a language which is the forebear of modern English and Scots (e.g. a Germanic language), with some Norman influences. The more Celtic-influenced aspects of the court tried installing Donald III of Scotland after Malcolm's death, and Donald III is usually seen as the last gasp of Celticism in the Scottish ruling classes, but he was soundly ousted by Malcolm's sons and from thereon in, the dominant court culture was drawn from the Anglish of the lowlands and Norman courtiers, hence why Scotland now speaks predominantly either English or Scots and only a few very marginal communities still keep to Scots Gaelic. It's not clear whether Robert the Bruce, for example, spoke much more than a few words of Scots Gaelic.

Having Scotland as a Celtic representative is like keeping England as a Celtic representative because of Boudicca, it's not really historically very accurate.

 

[Zaarin]

Why does it matter if they were Celtic or Germanic? If they had an important role of their society, culture, and history, if many people associate that group with the others, if many in the group thinks they're apart of that group or at least their culture, then why does it matter?

Because until Gaul was announced, Scotland was essentially assumed to be "the Celtic civ," when it's not in fact Celtic. There are (and were) Celtic Scots, e.g. the Gaels, but the civ design actually mirrors history in that the Gaels were politically and culturally marginalized. Indeed, you can find plenty of texts that show that the English (including the Anglo-Scots) regarded the Gaels (and Irish) in more or less the same terms they'd later use for Native Americans, including "savages."

 

[PhoenicianGold]

I find it interesting that of the 5 confirmed civs for NFP, 3 have unique districts and 2 have unique improvements. None so far have unique buildings.

Wait, what is Byzantium's UD?

I suspect this is to do two things:

1) Fix the disparity created by Phoenicia and Maya, where we now have two civs with the same UD replacement. So we could reasonably expect to see a second unique CH, TS, and/or HS.

2) Make even weirder civ designs by having "hybrid" unique districts (which was vaguely touched on by the Lavra). If this IZ functions kind of like a second encampment, we could expect to see other examples like maybe Portugal's feitoria being a unique CH that functions like an IZ, or Burma's Paya being a HS that functions like a CH. I think this was a natural evolution of districts and think the devs took too long to get to this point lol.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Wait, what is Byzantium's UD?

I suspect this is to do two things:

1) Fix the disparity created by Phoenicia and Maya, where we now have two civs with the same UD replacement. So we could reasonably expect to see a second unique CH, TS, and/or HS.

2) Make even weirder civ designs by having "hybrid" unique districts (which was vaguely touched on by the Lavra). If this IZ functions kind of like a second encampment, we could expect to see other examples like maybe Portugal's feitoria being a unique CH that functions like an IZ, or Burma's Paya being a HS that functions like a CH. I think this was a natural evolution of districts and think the devs took too long to get to this point lol.

We don't know yet. Anton said both civs have a UD.

Given the focus on domination and religion, it's probably either an EC (Hippodrome?) Or a HS (Basilica?) Or an Encampment (?).

I'm leaning towards Hippodrome, myself.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

We don't know yet. Anton said both civs have a UD.

Given the focus on domination and religion, it's probably either an EC (Hippodrome?) Or a HS (Basilica?) Or an Encampment (?).

I'm leaning towards Hippodrome, myself.

Yeah I would suspect a Hippodrome. Although, that begs the eventuality of a civ with a unique water park.

Who the hell could have a unique water park? Why did we even need a waterpark in civ?

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Yeah I would suspect a Hippodrome. Although, that begs the eventuality of a civ with a unique water park.

Who the hell could have a unique water park? Why did we even need a waterpark in civ?

Brazil already has one. The Copacabana.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

Brazil already has one. The Copacabana.

Yes, but what I mean is that if we have two unique ECs, but only one unique WP, then a second unique WP is kind of begged.

 

[8housesofelixir]

We don't know yet. Anton said both civs have a UD.
Given the focus on domination and religion, it's probably either an EC (Hippodrome?) Or a HS (Basilica?) Or an Encampment (?).
I'm leaning towards Hippodrome, myself.

"Byzantium" with a "Hippodrome", is that means any city you have built a Hippodrome will rebel after finished a Bread and Circuses project? Especially the capital city.

 

[Jeppetto]

We don't know yet. Anton said both civs have a UD.

Given the focus on domination and religion, it's probably either an EC (Hippodrome?) Or a HS (Basilica?) Or an Encampment (?).

I'm leaning towards Hippodrome, myself.

I think Basilica could be confusing with Alexander's building, especially If both have military flavour due to the war and religion focus of Byzantium. Not that it would make it out of question, the terms are still pretty different, just a possibility.

 

[Josephias]

Yeah I would suspect a Hippodrome. Although, that begs the eventuality of a civ with a unique water park.

Who the hell could have a unique water park? Why did we even need a waterpark in civ?

Couldn't find evidence of Byzantines keeping the tradition of Naumachiae, but (at risk of being ahistorical), that would help for a WP-equivalent to the hippodrome.

 

[Lord Lakely]

Basilica as a UD doesn't make sense. A unique Holy Site, yes, but a Basilica is a building. Try again.

I will tentatively agree with a Hippodrome District.

 

[AntSou]

So one of Assyria/Babylon or Portugal or NA Civ won't make it, then some people will interpret it as meaning there's a second Season Pack coming, but then the second season pack never comes. *nervous cries*

 

[PhoenicianGold]

Couldn't find evidence of Byzantines keeping the tradition of Naumachiae, but (at risk of being ahistorical), that would help for a WP-equivalent to the hippodrome.

Ugh. This would have been perfect, too. Why didn't Rome have Hippodrome/Naumachiae instead?

So one of Assyria/Babylon or Portugal or NA Civ won't make it, then some people will interpret it as meaning there's a second Season Pack coming, but then the second season pack never comes. *nervous cries*

More likely, at least two of these, since in all likelihood the remaining two civs are Portugal and a new civ, and we also have the Berbers potentially in the running.