[NFP] Civilization VI: Possible New Civilizations Thread

[8housesofelixir]

She conducted one of the most brutal and thorough genocides in human history out of spite. It's not exactly a figure you read about and then draw as a smiling maiden, somewhat similar to how Ivan the Terrible isn't drawn as a jolly old man.

I do like how when people describing Russian leaders, they were either westernizer or sociopath or somewhere in between.

 

[Zaarin]

Even still, the fact that they are even called Britons, or that the Cumans even appear at all, seems to me an indication that the structure of AoE better facilitates more specific and accurate civ design. They don't need to stretch the concept of England across a millennium and a half.

...Except the Britons in AoE2 are clearly English...who drove the Britons to extinction (or marginalization in Wales and Cornwall). It would be like calling Korea "Jin" or calling France "Lichtenstein." I think the devs just wanted their factions to sound "exotic" and threw out common sense names (see also: Saracens, Slavs, Teutons).

 

[notNamed]

I do like how when people describing Russian leaders, they were either westernizer or sociopath or somewhere in between.

She doesn't get the honor because of being Russian (she's not, Moscow Principality wouldn't exist for another 300 years, Russia proper for 500), but simply for being a genocidal saint. Ruthless genocides and canonised saints don't exactly go together. It's a bit as if like Hong Xiuquan of the Taiping Rebellion fame became a saint. And well, those jokes write themselves.

As far as Russian leaders go, the later Romanovs don't really get any of that. Their main themes tend to be their issues with serfdom and eventual demise, but never sociopathy like Ivan nor removing the Russia from Russia like Peter or Catherine.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

...Except the Britons in AoE2 are clearly English...who drove the Britons to extinction (or marginalization in Wales and Cornwall). It would be like calling Korea "Jin" or calling France "Lichtenstein." I think the devs just wanted their factions to sound "exotic" and threw out common sense names (see also: Saracens, Slavs, Teutons).

Oh of course. The Saracens are a special sticking point for me too; and the mushing together of Slavs and Kievan Rus' was a little sloppy.

But I guess I am talking specifically about the era-specific structure of the game encouraging better civ design. Regardless of how successfully it was implemented, I think it's just a model that shows more potential.

 

[Zaarin]

But I guess I am talking specifically about the era-specific structure of the game encouraging better civ design. Regardless of how successfully it was implemented, I think it's just a model that shows more potential.

I agree. The Britons are just a poor example of that because the AoK devs clearly had no idea whom they were talking about.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

...Except the Britons in AoE2 are clearly English...who drove the Britons to extinction (or marginalization in Wales and Cornwall). It would be like calling Korea "Jin" or calling France "Lichtenstein." I think the devs just wanted their factions to sound "exotic" and threw out common sense names (see also: Saracens, Slavs, Teutons).

Calling a French faction "Lichtenstein" sounds even worse considering it's primarily German speaking and doesn't even border modern-day France.

Speaking of the Teutons, I'm still not sure why Humankind decided to have them, in addition to the Franks, for the base game.

At least in my mind the Franks could have easily represented both Medieval France and Germany. That way the Inca could have gotten in.

 

[Zaarin]

Calling a French faction "Lichtenstein" sounds even worse considering it's primarily German speaking and doesn't even border modern-day France.

French has a lot more Germanic influence than English has Celtic.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

French has a lot more Germanic influence than English has Celtic.

Well I wasn't defending calling an English faction "the Britons" either, so we can at least agree on that.

 

[GenyaArikado]

She conducted one of the most brutal and thorough genocides in human history out of spite. It's not exactly a figure you read about and then draw as a smiling maiden, somewhat similar to how Ivan the Terrible isn't drawn as a jolly old man.

I know

 

[PhoenicianGold]

I know

Maybe she could use Ba Trieu's animations. Wave that cross around.

I just want the Gorgo line to keep getting angrier and angrier.

 

[Narcisse]

The Age of Empires games are wonderful games. I love all three of them, and I'm eagerly looking forward to the fourth entry. But historically accurate? Not by a long shot. Some charming examples from AoE2: we have a civ called the Britons that is actually the English; we have a civ called the Celts that is actually the Irish; we have a civ called the Cumans with a Mongol-style mask-helmet as its icon (TBF I totally blame another great game, Kingdom Come: Deliverance, for that one); Aztecs and Inca play more or less exactly like Eurasian civs except no cavalry and no gunpowder...

The earliest information we have about these mask-helmets is than it was Kipchak. Cumans and Kipchak living together in a confederation before the Mongol invasion, and after losing their country they migrated to be assihimilated in a lot of countries (Wallachia, Bulgaria, Hungary, Mamluks Sultanat, Kievan Rus'...) and being most of the times called "Cumans mercenaries" by westerners... It's not a big stretch honestly.
And with the assihimilation, these mask-helmets were a bit everywhere. Among Seljuk slave-soldiers, elite Mamluks, Timurids, Rus' Druzhina, etc ...

I mean, as often, with this kind of common history, the uses have been shared and mixed ... and besides we can see this mask on the cuman stelles for exemple

 

[Zaarin]

The earliest information we have about these mask-helmets is than it was Kipchak. Cumans and Kipchak living together in a confederation before the Mongol invasion, and after losing their country they migrated to be assihimilated in a lot of countries (Wallachia, Bulgaria, Hungary, Mamluks Sultanat, Kievan Rus'...) and being most of the times called "Cumans mercenaries" by westerners... It's not a big stretch honestly.
And with the assihimilation, these mask-helmets were a bit everywhere. Among Seljuk slave-soldiers, elite Mamluks, Timurids Rus' Druzhina, etc ...

I mean, as often, with this kind of common history, the uses have shared and mixed ... and besides we can see this mask on the cuman stelles for exemple

I know the masks were used throughout Central Asia and into the Middle East, but it's my impression that they were anachronistic for the Cumans. On the other hand I'm basing that solely on other historians' critiques of Kingdom Come: Deliverance.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

The earliest information we have about these mask-helmets is than it was Kipchak. Cumans and Kipchak living together in a confederation before the Mongol invasion, and after losing their country they migrated to be assihimilated in a lot of countries (Wallachia, Bulgaria, Hungary, Mamluks Sultanat, Kievan Rus'...) and being most of the times called "Cumans mercenaries" by westerners... It's not a big stretch honestly.
And with the assihimilation, these mask-helmets were a bit everywhere. Among Seljuk slave-soldiers, elite Mamluks, Timurids, Rus' Druzhina, etc ...

I mean, as often, with this kind of common history, the uses have been shared and mixed ... and besides we can see this mask on the cuman stelles for exemple

The Cumans, in fact, left carved statue/stelae all over the Ukraine, many showing female figures which are consistently labeled "Baba" by the Slavic people there now.

The masked helmet was also a feature of Roman cavalry armor from the 1st century CE in the Empire. There's quite a bit of debate as to if or how often it was actually used in battle, because some of the surviving samples are obviously too decorative to be practical (but, since those samples were grave goods, they may have been specifically manufactured to be decorative rather than practical). I would be very surprised if there is any connection between Roman Cavalry masks of 100 - 250 CE and Kipchak/Cuman masks of 1100 - 1300 CE and several thousand kilometers further east, but it shows that the idea is not completely unique . . .

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

This one still gets me. The world's first great empire makes it into a game called "Civilization" once five iterations in because of one dev's personal interests.

I'm planning an Assyrian Civilization idea, and I'd like your advice on what I could add. Maybe a private DM so this Thread doesn't go off track?

Anyway, yeah, I'm also surprised the Assyrians only made it once into the Civ franchise.

 

[bbbt]

I do like how when people describing Russian leaders, they were either westernizer or sociopath or somewhere in between.

If we're counting Kievan Rus leaders, Alexander Nevsky was pretty sane and an 'Easternizer' if anything (more of a nationalist/pragmatist really).

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

If we're counting Kievan Rus leaders, Alexander Nevsky was pretty sane and an 'Easternizer' if anything (more of a nationalist/pragmatist really).

If we want a sociopathic badass who would be put in an insane asylum today, Olga of Kiev is a good choice.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

If we want a sociopathic badass who would be put in an insane asylum today, Olga of Kiev is a good choice.

Reciprocate an assassination with wholesale genocide and get made a saint. Someone needs to make a movie about her.

 

[notNamed]

Reciprocate an assassination with wholesale genocide and get made a saint. Someone needs to make a movie about her.

What makes you think there already isn't a good amount of these?
Legenda o Knyagine Olyge ('83 - made by USSR, so now free):

Saga Drevnikh Bulgar ('05/'06, a series of movies about the Bulgars where she features in the first 2 films)
Knyaginya Olyga ('15)
Kreshchenie Rusi ('18, 'Baptism of Rus', popular docudrama series including her)
And that's before a ton of books and even a ballet.

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

Reciprocate an assassination with wholesale genocide and get made a saint. Someone needs to make a movie about her.

No... She needs a Sabaton song.

 

[Haig]

All the civs on NFP have been released on the order of from west to eastwards, starting with the Americas pack of Maya and GC and gone eastwards now to Kublai and Vietnam.

I wonder is it just a coincidence? Next stop for the civ in the #6 could be back to American continent.

I still think that Portugal is the last civ. Portugal has been along with Byzantium and Ethiopia ones I was hoping for the most so I would be glad though.