[NFP] Civilization VI: Possible New Civilizations Thread

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I wholly agree with this sentiment. The larger the crowd, the shallower the consensus becomes. It's quite unfortunate to me that prior to NFP, most of the attention was thrown at Babylon, Byzantium, Gaul, and Portugal. It's still unfortunate to me that most of the attention is being thrown at Austria, Italy, Assyria, Iroquois. There are some really juicy regions with very large, enduring empires that are still empty on the map, but since they don't get talked about in history books as much fewer people care about them.

Even if I want them I don't expect most of them to return. I can at most see a season pass of 4 civs and an alt leader.
If we realistically got a second season I could see the Iroquois just because they are a safe choice for NA. After that something from North Africa with an alt Egyptian leader which are also highly requested.

Venice had a major empire in the Middle Ages; I think the single-city thing was a strange choice for them.

I know that. I'm just afraid they would go back to that. It seems like they were going to with Genoa, but decided against it in the base game. Funny enough if Italy did get in I think you could make the argument that Venice could even stay a city-state considering it was a major Empire and was more influenced by Byzantine/Greeks.
Bologna would have to change though.

Though if we did get a single Italian city-state let it be Florence this time around.

 

[The Kingmaker]

The only way I see Italy is under a XIX century leader...

I mean, Athens and Sparta were city-states, not a united Greece. But they each led alliances/leagues of other city-states and established colonies elsewhere.

I don’t see why Italy can’t be portrayed the same way. Pick a couple of important city-states (Florence, Milan, Venice, etc.) with iconic leaders and have them represent their own Renaissance-era alliances/leagues/etc. as Italy.

 

[Lokreah]

I'm happy that there is a lot of support for the Iroquois / Haudenosaunee

 

[Zaarin]

Venice could even stay a city-state considering it was a major Empire and was more influenced by Byzantine/Greeks.

So influenced they stole a cathedral. Was Carmen Sandiego Venetian?

 

[Thenewwwguy]

Question for people who want Italy in the game, what would their capital be because it can't be Rome.

i beleive that Turin, Milan, Cagliari, Florence and Naples have all been capitals of a united Italy. Florence, Pisa, Venice and Genoa can all be capitals if the Italy civ is based off of the city-state period

 

[BuchiTaton]

You mean the game that has both the Franks and Teutons in the Medieval Era in addition to Byzantines, English and Norseman in the Medieval?

I mean I guess they don't have Portugal, but who needs them when you have the Dutch, Polish, Spain and Venice in the Early Modern.

Okay I'll stop.

I think we need to put things in context:
1- Humankind is a complety new game that need to gain their place againts the very consolidated CIV (both series and iteration). We all know that the biggest market are western countries, is evident the need to appeal them since start.
2- One distictive element on the design of Humankind are the chance to change (add) cultures with the eras, is obvious that the best way to represent that is with some versions of the history of X,Y,Z popular countries.
3- Humankind have the key to have many cultures that cant be on CIV, like the ones that lack know language or leaders (Harappans, Olmecs, etc.) and horrible monolithic historical blobs like China, India and Persia (Mauryans, Mughals, Zhou, Ming, etc.), they could even get at some point Chola, Tufans or Jurchen but on CIV, I dont think they dare to do it even on CIV7.

Also, people here are still talking about the need to keep the proportion of European/Western civs for a unlikely final CIV6 DLC?
All the main well know civs are already in, if devs do a new expansion is the last for sure. Why cant they take more risks for these last hypothetical expansion? Is not like they would need to secure the sales for more after, it would be CIV7 with all the mandatory civs again.

I would also point again to the issue about the representation of native nations on AoE3 and how they needed to change how Haudenosaunee and Lakota gain gold because it was not representative of their historical ways. Dont you think these could be also brought to CIV? Considering the current political trend I see more and more incomplatible the representation on USA native nations on the symmetric and western centric design of CIV series.

 

[Zaarin]

I would also point again to the issue about the representation of native nations on AoE3 and how they needed to change how Haudenosaunee and Lakota gain gold because it was not representative of their historical ways.

Though, as a big fan of AoE3 myself, that was a change that looks nice on paper but in practice just disadvantages Native American factions and doesn't actually change anything. If they'd actually made it so that the Native American factions earned Gold through hunting or some such that would be interesting--but Native American factions build a building next to a gold mine and the gold still depletes. So basically the Haudenosaunee and Lakota still mine gold the same way everyone else does--it just costs them some extra Wood. Also the Native American advisor may have been correct about the Lakota specifically, but his claim that Native Americans never mined is historically inaccurate: a number of tribes mined for copper and profited greatly from trading it.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I think we need to put things in context:
1- Humankind is a complety new game that need to gain their place againts the very consolidated CIV (both series and iteration). We all know that the biggest market are western countries, is evident the need to appeal them since start.
2- One distictive element on the design of Humankind are the chance to change (add) cultures with the eras, is obvious that the best way to represent that is with some versions of the history of X,Y,Z popular countries.
3- Humankind have the key to have many cultures that cant be on CIV, like the ones that lack know language or leaders (Harappans, Olmecs, etc.) and horrible monolithic historical blobs like China, India and Persia (Mauryans, Mughals, Zhou, Ming, etc.), they could even get at some point Chola, Tufans or Jurchen but on CIV, I dont think they dare to do it even on CIV7.

I'm not disagreeing with you. I was just pointing out someone's disappointment with Portugal most likely being the last civ in the NFP, and how they said that moving to Humankind will be less Eurocentric, which doesn't necessarily seem to be the case, at least for the base game.

Also, people here are still talking about the need to keep the proportion of European/Western civs for a unlikely final CIV6 DLC?
All the main well know civs are already in, if devs do a new expansion is the last for sure. Why cant they take more risks for these last hypothetical expansion? Is not like they would need to secure the sales for more after, it would be CIV7 with all the mandatory civs again.

Well Italy has been my most requested Civ and Maria Theresa is one of my favorite leaders so I'm biased towards Austria getting in as well too. But yeah Europe is pretty full and they aren't necessary but I want them.

I would also point again to the issue about the representation of native nations on AoE3 and how they needed to change how Haudenosaunee and Lakota gain gold because it was not representative of their historical ways. Dont you think these could be also brought to CIV? Considering the current political trend I see more and more incomplatible the representation on USA native nations on the symmetric and western centric design of CIV series.

One way to do that is make it to where that particular civ can't build a Commercial Hub, similar to how Kongo can't build a Holy Site. From there you'd have to gain gold and Great Merchants other ways. Maybe all bonus resources gain gold and you'll have to rely on Harbors to trade.

 

[Zaarin]

One way to do that is make it to where that particular civ can't build a Commercial Hub, similar to how Kongo can't build a Holy Site. From there you'd have to gain gold and Great Merchants other ways.

While perhaps interesting from a gameplay perspective, markets, even if transient, have simply been part of human society for as long as one person has had something another one didn't. Even in gift societies (which arguably is still a form of trade), strangers trade.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

While perhaps interesting from a gameplay perspective, markets, even if transient, have simply been part of human society for as long as one person has had something another one didn't. Even in gift societies (which arguably is still a form of trade), strangers trade.

Yeah you are right, though the Kingdom of Kongo did built shrines historically, but they can't in the game.

I was thinking more along the lines of later in the game where of course Native American tribes never really had the type of currency to be put in banks and stock exchanges, creating a full fledged financial center in cities. Trading posts will still always exist.

 

[Zaarin]

I was thinking more along the lines of later in the game where of course Native American tribes never really had the type of currency to be put in banks and stock exchanges, creating a full fledged financial center in cities. Trading posts will still always exist.

Well, the Natives of the Northeast had wampum, and Natives from the Pacific Coast (from California all the way up to Alaska) used dentalia shells. Both were functionally currency. Some men in the PNW would even tattoo lines on their arms to measure the dentalia shells against.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Well, the Natives of the Northeast had wampum, and Natives from the Pacific Coast (from California all the way up to Alaska) used dentalia shells. Both were functionally currency. Some men in the PNW would even tattoo lines on their arms to measure the dentalia shells against.

Right but I was relating it to actual bank and stock exchange buildings aren't needed for things like wampum, shells, furs, textiles etc.
Of course I don't necessarily know if gameplay wise not being able to build Commercial Hubs is needed, but it's something that could be done if they wanted to do it.

 

[cosmicmangobear]

I think something that gets overlooked when talking about indigenous history is the extensive modernizations of the last century. While the vast majority of tribes are nowhere near as influential as they were in the pre-Columbian era, it should be noted they were still able to build extensive networks of hospitals, schools, museums, (and yes, casinos) that could easily fit the mold of a "Civilization". Zitkála-Šá, for example, could represent the Siouan peoples with an opera house UB just as well as Sitting Bull in a tipi.

 

[Wielki Hegemon]

I think Venice = 1 City Civ is rather a fan perspective than devs People seem to consider things as they saw them once in the past, not how they might seem. But if you consider how many possible mechanics still missing and could fit Venice well there is no need to stick to that 1 City Civ vision.
- Improved and enforced Neighborhoods that can be built on the coast like polders. but must use a settler charge or unique great admiral/merchant similar to Gran Colombia one.
- Attacking other Civs under false flag without declaring war on them with CS units
- Mercenary army to choose and buy from other Civs UU
- Additional Diplomatic missions for spy and unique promotions (force AI Civ to declare war on different Civ or CS, force AI to declare peace with chosen Civ (including yourself) or CS, improve relations with random Civ etc)
- Loyalty pressure and flipping cities via trade routes (Eleonore but with trade)
- Spending Diplomatic Favor points to launch special Emergency Dynasty Crisis where you can target another Civs and engage AI Civ in a war)
And those are just a few ideas that come to my mind.
Plus great themes for possible City Project like Venetian Carnaval, the ability to build districts on water titles, and many more. And all this stuff without even economic victory as a game feature.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I think something that gets overlooked when talking about indigenous history is the extensive modernizations of the last century. While the vast majority of tribes are nowhere near as influential as they were in the pre-Columbian era, it should be noted they were still able to build extensive networks of hospitals, schools, museums, (and yes, casinos) that could easily fit the mold of a "Civilization". Zitkála-Šá, for example, could represent the Siouan peoples with an opera house UB just as well as Sitting Bull in a tipi.

I have a feeling a majority of the people would not necessarily want the native civs portrayed by having something from the 20th century when they were "westernized."
I wouldn't have a problem to an extent, particularly in the form of a Navajo Code Talker UU. But I can see how an opera house UB for a Sioux civilization might not work for a lot of people.

Considering she wrote a Sun Dance Opera I think it would be as appropriate in making a Sun Dance Circle a Unique Holy Site.

 

[Birch617]

I have a feeling a majority of the people would not necessarily want the native civs portrayed by having something from the 20th century when they were "westernized."
I wouldn't have a problem to an extent, particularly in the form of a Navajo Code Talker UU. But I can see how an opera house UB for a Sioux civilization might not work for a lot of people.

Considering she wrote a Sun Dance Opera I think it would be as appropriate in making a Sun Dance Circle a Unique Holy Site.

Yeah those could work, other examples could be Syllabary Schools for Cheerokee or a Peyote Church as a unique Comanche Holy site idk

 

[Zaarin]

Zitkála-Šá, for example, could represent the Siouan peoples with an opera house UB just as well as Sitting Bull in a tipi.

I did a paper on her in undergrad. She was fascinating.

I have a feeling a majority of the people would not necessarily want the native civs portrayed by having something from the 20th century when they were "westernized."

Depends on the civ and the context. E.g., the success the Five Civilized Tribes had in syncretizing Western culture and technology into Native systems is the reason we discuss them for inclusion. The Iroquois became a superpower because of their early access to firearms because the Dutch were less scrupulous than the French. There are limits, however. I don't think anyone particularly wants to see a Native civ represented from the period after they were relegated to reservations, and a UI like a Powwow or Buffalo Bill Cody's Wild West Show would just be offensive.

 

[Zegangani]

If we do get a "Final" Frontier Pass I don't think we will get a Venice Civ or Venice City for an Italy Civ, as it was just recently added with NFP.
In the first NFP Developer Livestream Video, the Devs said that there is going to be a balance patch at the end of NFP, so we might get much more than just the balance for the 2/3 of Civs/Leaders. Perhaps that explains also the Zombie Mode, because we might get a balance/polish for Scenarios and NFP Modes too (The last NFP DLC is technically the end of NFP, April update doesn't count to NFP, although it may contain NFP fixes/balance).

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Depends on the civ and the context. E.g., the success the Five Civilized Tribes had in syncretizing Western culture and technology into Native systems is the reason we discuss them for inclusion. The Iroquois became a superpower because of their early access to firearms because the Dutch were less scrupulous than the French. There are limits, however. I don't think anyone particularly wants to see a Native civ represented from the period after they were relegated to reservations, and a UI like a Powwow or Buffalo Bill Cody's Wild West Show would just be offensive.

I agree. The above mentioned Syllabary school as a unique library to me is fine for a Cherokee civ as well as a Musketmen replacement UU for the Iroquois.

What is your opinion on a Navajo Code Talker as a UU? I'd really find it interesting at least from a gameplay perspective if they'd give you and your allies diplomatic visibility for civs when they are in their territory.

If we do get a "Final" Frontier Pass I don't think we will get a Venice Civ or Venice City for an Italy Civ, as it was just recently added with NFP.

I agree. Though as I've mentioned before I think Venice could theoretically exist as a city-state outside of a hypothetical Italy civ along with obviously the Vatican City.
Bologna would need to be replaced.
Also Chinguetti was recently added but I'm not sure if that would be considered a Berber city or not?
Lahore and Samarkand also most likely means no Mughals/Timurids and Ayutthaya signigying Siam not returning for Asia.

 

[Wielki Hegemon]

I agree. Though as I've mentioned before I think Venice could theoretically exist as a city-state outside of a hypothetical Italy civ along with obviously the Vatican City.

Venice can exist not only as a CS but as a Civ outside of a hypothetical Italian Civ