[NFP] Civilization VI: Possible New Civilizations Thread

[8housesofelixir]

I'd like to see Korea as a culture/faith civ; let China be the science civ. The "Korean science" meme is more a result of South Korea's 90s science boom than the brief flowering of sciences under Sejong.

I never understand why "Korea" is very likely being linked with "Science" in the historical games, not to say that many "Scientific Korean" factions just doesn't have Sejong as their leader.

To my knowledge the "Korea Science" formula first shown up in Civ IV, which was many years later than the SK science boom.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I don't mind to see Hansa (or HRE?) and Germany (mostly equals "Prussia plus Ruhr" in the historical games) being different civs - they belonged to the same culture group and spoke the same language, no doubt, but their organization structures and governing strategies were just dramatically different.

All the different German entities are an interesting case because you can easily make an argument for a separate Franks, HRE, Austria, Prussia and then modern Germany civ. But to consolidate it it's sometimes easier just making a German civ encompass all, or most, of those components unless w might have another Macedon is just part of Greece debate again. Plus Europe is overcrowded as is.

China with a culture focus is not a problem, the problem being Qin Shi Huang is not someone you can easily link with "culture". He was basically a Napoleon-like figure who bornt 2000 years earlier; there were many other emperors that can fit into a culture design much better than him (in fact, Wu Zetian was one of them).

I mean he is the one who started the Great Wall and built the Terracotta Army. I think those were easily relatable to culture as the Great Wall has been a wonder in the past, but other than that I agree there could have been other cultural leaders, as in some that didn't burn their own civilization's books.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

I never understand why "Korea" is very likely being linked with "Science" in the historical games, not to say that many "Scientific Korean" factions just doesn't have Sejong as their leader.

To my knowledge the "Korea Science" formula first shown up in Civ IV, which was many years later than the SK science boom.

It's because of Hangul mostly. And also having public education as early as the 4th century, to a lesser extent.

 

[8housesofelixir]

And also having public education as early as the 4th century.

I highly doubt the historicity of this claim. Even in Joseon Korea, a thousand years after the 4th century, the educational institutions were mostly opened to elites (unlike China, Korea had a hereditary elite class for the most of its history); not to say that we know very little about Korea in 4th century, too few historical accounts.

 

[Zaarin]

I don't mind to see Hansa (or HRE?) and Germany (mostly equals "Prussia plus Ruhr" in the historical games) being different civs - they belonged to the same culture group and spoke the same language, no doubt, but their organization structures and governing strategies were just dramatically different.

I don't feel a strong need to Balkanize Western Europe, and if we do I'd rather Balkanize France (and get a Brittany, Normandy, or Francia civ, for example).

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I don't feel a strong need to Balkanize Western Europe, and if we do I'd rather Balkanize France (and get a Brittany, Normandy, or Francia civ, for example).

That being said (HRE) Austria can easily exist besides a more modern Germany as it has before. And I wouldn't mind a Frankish civ either. I think Charlemagne has the personality to pull off a civ to make it different than France and Germany, how Alexander does it in Civ 6 leading Macedon. But it's definitely not a priority.

I think Brittany and Normandy might be pushing it, sorry @Duke William of Normandy. Might as well get Eleanor back leading a separate Aquitaine civ while we're at it.

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

I think Brittany and Normandy might be pushing it, sorry @Duke William of Normandy. Might as well get Eleanor back leading a separate Aquitaine civ while we're at it.

No worries. I myself see that with Gaul and 2.5 Leaders for France, we don't really need a Normandy Civ. A Sicilian Civ, on the other hand...

Side note: I'm not advocating for a Sicilian Civ, though it would be cool to see one. It could be an Economic Civilization with an incentive to allow other Religions into its Empire.

 

[Zaarin]

I think Brittany and Normandy might be pushing it

Three words: Joanna of Flanders. In the War of Breton Succession, she donned armor, raised an army of women, and burned her enemy's camp and supplies, earning herself the nickname "Jeanne la flamme"--tell me that's not more interesting than Eleanor's Court of Love.

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

Three words: Joanna of Flanders. In the War of Breton Succession, she donned armor, raised an army of women, and burned her enemy's camp and supplies, earning herself the nickname "Jeanne la flamme"--tell me that's not more interesting than Eleanor's Court of Love.

Stop giving me ideas, damnnit! I'm already overworked with all this stuff I've planned.

 

[RuneMask]

I can learn more about history in this forum than in school (lol). I was always interested in the Scythians (they had interesting religious rites, they used hemp flowers at funerals)
UWU
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[Duke William of Normandy]

Three words: Joanna of Flanders. In the War of Breton Succession, she donned armor, raised an army of women, and burned her enemy's camp and supplies, earning herself the nickname "Jeanne la flamme"--tell me that's not more interesting than Eleanor's Court of Love.

It is more interesting.

I can learn more about history in this forum than in school (lol). I was always interested in the Scythians (they had interesting religious rites, they used hemp flowers at funerals)
UWU

Same here, although Youtube also helped with the likes of Kings and Generals, BazBattles, Historia Civilis, and etc.

 

[ManoftheHour333]

Yes, please. Let the most militant civ in Western Europe be the militant civ (and bring forth Philippe Auguste to lead them) and give the culture to Lizzie.

Ehhhhh but by those rules every civ in Europe would be militant. And yeah while their conscription and knack for getting into wars was insane (And got them into more then a fair share of trouble), it didn't penetrate the overarching culture as say, Germany/Prussia and Norway...and those are just 2 examples.

Tbh, I'd rather each region get some sort of different specialities-it's boring if one region plays with the same bonuses. We were discussing this with East Asia on how to make each civ super different. The Middle East is another great example with religious civs (Arabia), science civs (Babylon), domination civs (Sumaria, Ottomans), and economic civs (Phoenicia) all in the same region. If we have Germany, Spain, England and France all be uber militant...it makes the region boring.

 

[ManoftheHour333]

It is more interesting.


Same here, although Youtube also helped with the likes of Kings and Generals, BazBattles, Historia Civilis, and etc.

Lol I'm in grad school and I still learn tons from history Youtubers like Jack Rackam, History House, and History Civilis (LOVE their Rome series). It's phenomenal

I don't feel a strong need to Balkanize Western Europe, and if we do I'd rather Balkanize France (and get a Brittany, Normandy, or Francia civ, for example).

Agreed. Western Europe in particular got so much attention that even other parts of Europe (Sans Greece proper) were seriously underrepresented.

 

[berlin88]

Or Elsaß-Lothringen, depending on which side you're on.

I vote for the German Elsaß-Lothringen over the French variation, as the Alsatian language is more closely related to German (being a low Franconian dialect) than the French language. Many of the cities in this region have German names, like Strassburg, Metz, Verdun etc. and were ruled by German monarchs for centuries.

When my ancestors lived in France, Elsaß-Lothringen was still part of the Holy Roman Empire and the people living there had more in common with the Germans than they did the French. This region didn't become part of Modern France until the late 1600's, as a result of the thirty years war.

I don't associate this region with France, any more than I consider East Prussia, Pommerania, Neumark or Silesia to be Polish.

If Firaxis wants a proper Holy Roman Empire in Civ VI or even Civ VII, then they need to give the HRE its traditional territories, which could also include the Swiss, Dutch, Luxembourg and northern Italy.

 

[Zaarin]

Ehhhhh but by those rules every civ in Europe would be militant. And yeah while their conscription and knack for getting into wars was insane (And got them into more then a fair share of trouble), it didn't penetrate the overarching culture as say, Germany/Prussia and Norway...and those are just 2 examples.

Their foundation myth was about a war with the Muslims, they participated in all the Crusades to the extent that the word for "white person" from Morocco to Malaysia is derived from "Frank," they were at war for over a century with England, and they nearly conquered Europe well before Germany tried it twice...and you think war didn't make a lasting impact on their culture? Whereas "cultured France" is really an invention of the past 150 years, give or take. And I'm not suggesting that it's the wrong depiction of France--but just as we've seen a few shakeups in Civ6 (cultural America, builder China, cultural Japan, expansionist Byzantium, religio-cultural Russia, etc.), I'd like to see more, and a militant France with a side of religion would be both novel and historically appropriate.

Tbh, I'd rather each region get some sort of different specialities-it's boring if one region plays with the same bonuses. We were discussing this with East Asia on how to make each civ super different. The Middle East is another great example with religious civs (Arabia), science civs (Babylon), domination civs (Sumaria, Ottomans), and economic civs (Phoenicia) all in the same region. If we have Germany, Spain, England and France all be uber militant...it makes the region boring.

Well, I very rarely play with TSL so I don't find this kind of regional representation particularly compelling. I also seriously question the validity of Sumer as a domination civ (it, too, should be a culture/builder/faith civ, though given the choice I'd like to give that role to Assyria instead) unless either Sargon or Naram-Sin is its leader. Then again, until Babylon came along, Sumer was the all-around worst-designed civ in the game in my opinion so there's that.

I vote for the German Elsaß-Lothringen over the French variation

Do we really want to debate whom Alsace-Lorraine should belong to? Because wars have been fought over this debate. I have no opinion on the matter.

 

[ManoftheHour333]

Their foundation myth was about a war with the Muslims, they participated in all the Crusades to the extent that the word for "white person" from Morocco to Malaysia is derived from "Frank," they were at war for over a century with England, and they nearly conquered Europe well before Germany tried it twice...and you think war didn't make a lasting impact on their culture? Whereas "cultured France" is really an invention of the past 150 years, give or take. And I'm not suggesting that it's the wrong depiction of France--but just as we've seen a few shakeups in Civ6 (cultural America, builder China, cultural Japan, expansionist Byzantium, religio-cultural Russia, etc.), I'd like to see more, and a militant France with a side of religion would be both novel and historically appropriate.

Ok that's a decent argument that I don't disagree with...I'm 100% behind a *more* militant France as I would personally like to see Napoleon return...and maybe for once have a UU and ability that helps France actually be an effective military powerhouse like irl. I just think that they still need to have some kind of cultural focus (Wonders, great works, GPP) to potentially pivot...they really should be cultural/military in the same way that England should be economic /military and Germany should be production/military. All partially military civs but have other bonuses to best play to their civilizations other lasting legacies. To the last point I strongly disagree that France should have a side of religion. Putting aside infrastructure, religion wasn't really a strength of the country and fractured it multiple times...even in the 30 Years War they didn't enter due to piety but politics. I don't see it as much of a strength/pure piety when compared to so many other states in Europe. I'd rather see Austria, Spain, or even Ireland (For VII I'd personally rather have Ireland+Great Britain as civs over Scotland and England...also since people won't shut up about ireland for some reason lol) be better in the faith department.


And I don't play TSL much either...maybe I'm alone in this regard but it's more fun to see different people groups have different strengths if their all in a certain area. It'd be hella boring and restrictive if every European civ is militant and every Asian civ is peaceful...I understand there is historical accuracy but having entire regions devoted to just one singular skill don't represent the broader themes of civilization that persist in all of them...if all middle eastern civs are science civs it leaves out a huge portion of their civ that was devoted to faith...or to military. By having each civ in the region marginally have a specialty (And it can be more than one) it evens the playing field out per region. My opinion alone here but yeah

 

[Kimiimaro]

A Sicilian Civ, on the other hand...

Two Sicilies, and only if Firaxis makes their lovely flag into the usual two colour icon. Take it or leave it

 

[mitsho]

I'd make a bet that I can give you an argument for any "focus" for any civ out there, be it cultural, scientific, militarist or population-boomer. That's why I'd rather have a pretty blank set-up for civs with few uniques and leaders that propel them in different directions. Whereas those cultural, scientific, militarist bonuses could be attained by playstyle, civic tree or any other way. If you'd like to make them more culturally similar, you can always define those bonuses by culture group, i.e. a cultural England would have the same bonus as a cultural France, but differ by their leader, city names and unique units. I think that is more valuable than restricting France for a whole game to x or having to create a Burgundy, Franks and Napoleonic civ just for that.

Just think of the difficulties we have to tie different leaders to the Russia of Civ6 that is so focussed on religion.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

I'd make a bet that I can give you an argument for any "focus" for any civ out there, be it cultural, scientific, militarist or population-boomer. That's why I'd rather have a pretty blank set-up for civs with few uniques and leaders that propel them in different directions. Whereas those cultural, scientific, militarist bonuses could be attained by playstyle, civic tree or any other way. If you'd like to make them more culturally similar, you can always define those bonuses by culture group, i.e. a cultural England would have the same bonus as a cultural France, but differ by their leader, city names and unique units. I think that is more valuable than restricting France for a whole game to x or having to create a Burgundy, Franks and Napoleonic civ just for that.

Just think of the difficulties we have to tie different leaders to the Russia of Civ6 that is so focussed on religion.

Except Olga of Kiev is perfect and we don't really need anyone else.

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

Except Olga of Kiev is perfect and we don't really need anyone else.

Badass saint that murdered all of her husband's killers in sheer mad lad fashion, as well as getting the epithet "Equal to the Apostles"? Yes.