[NFP] Civilization VI: Possible New Civilizations Thread

Personally I'm hoping to finally get an Early Medieval England/Anglo-Saxon leader for England, alongside a colonial era one.
Alfred the Great would probably be my number one pick if we happened to get a male leader for England, though I know that some people wouldn't consider Anglo-Saxon/Wessex as being part of the same civ as the rest of England. I'm fine with that as long as we still had a proper English Renaissance leader though.


They hold a World Congress, similar to the Amazigh, and could be seen as just as expansionist as any landed people. So they're kind of like an unlanded nation, similar to many other UNPO peoples, some of which I think represent interesting design space for representing less concrete ideas of statehood (other examples would be the Lakota, Sakha, Yoruba, Oromo, Tibet, Assyria, Zanzibar...).
Are you talking about the current population of Assyrians today? Because I'm sure when most people say they want Assyria they want the ancient Assyrian Empire that definitely had a central place of power. :p
 
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I definitely disagree here. Samurai armor is derived from the lamellar armor of the Nara period and that is almost the same as Tang armor on the continent.
You can clearly see how they progressed into one another... but Han dynasty is absolutely not what you think of when you look at a samurai. I'm 99.9% sure of that, even if that 0.1% chance exists. :p
Same thing with the riveted brigandines of Ming and Joseon compared to the lamellars of the Terracotta Army.

It's important to note that it didn't go from Han directly into Ming. If you look at examples of all dynasties next to each other you can see a sort of progression from the Lamellar of the Qin to the more Brigandine-esque armour of the Ming. Even then, Lamellar was also still used in the Yuan and Ming Dynasties. It is important to note that Armour should change overtime, as weapons become more advanced. Just because they look different doesn't mean they aren't related. Obviously samurai armour looks different from Han dynasty armour, because the two were separated by roughly 1000 years.
 
The only thing I see Argentina adding to the game would be tango music, and music alone isn't enough to justify it I think.

Well hold on now, Knorr doing tango music...now I HAVE to consider them.

Three words: Joanna of Flanders. In the War of Breton Succession, she donned armor, raised an army of women, and burned her enemy's camp and supplies, earning herself the nickname "Jeanne la flamme"--tell me that's not more interesting than Eleanor's Court of Love. :p
Yes, please.
 
I never knew that! Star Trek truly has a wonderful history of massacring the British Empire - we will have to see how the Irish Unification of 2024 pans out...
Yeah, Siddig mentioned it in one of his interviews. He and Meaney had a very similar relationship offscreen as onscreen: they initially disliked each other and eventually became great frenemies. :D

Personally I'm hoping to finally get an Early Medieval England/Anglo-Saxon leader for England, alongside a colonial era one.
I see the Anglo-Saxons as similar to Francia: too different from their later Medieval/Modern counterpart to be the same civ, but too similar to be very probable to be included (though with Macedon and very British Scotland here, anything is possible...). So while I'd love to see Anglo-Saxons or Francia, I wouldn't count on it, and I don't think Alfred the Great or Charlemagne make sense for England/France. I'm torn on a later Medieval English leader, though; England was really a second-rate power for most of the Middle Ages--yet at the same time there are plenty of interesting personalities to draw from the period like Henry V, Empress Matilda, and Richard III. Altogether, though, I think Tudor period is ideal for representing England: it's when England (independent from the UK) was at the peak of its power and influence and already on the cusp of empire. Plus Elizabeth I may be one of the most fascinating individuals in history, and Civ has yet to do her brilliant, vain, charismatic, eloquent, fiery, moody, mercurial self justice. :love:
 
So am I, but I think "the unchanging Mandate of Heaven" is open for scrutiny.

Since someone mentioned "the unchanging Mandate of Heaven" as a feature for "the Chinese continuity", I would like offer a quick and interesting reminder: Qin Shi Huang, the very first Emperor of the whole China, was actually not a supporter of Mandate of Heaven.

If you check the all the records left by Qin, you will find that he actively avoided being called "Mandate of Heaven", and never stated that he was the receiver of a heavenly mandate even in the official propaganda.
 
Since someone mentioned "the unchanging Mandate of Heaven" as a feature for "the Chinese continuity", a quick and interesting reminder that Qin Shi Huang, the very first Emperor of the whole China, was not a supporter of Mandate of Heaven.
To be fair, I mentioned it as something that needed scrutiny, not something to be supported. :p
 
I see the Anglo-Saxons as similar to Francia: too different from their later Medieval/Modern counterpart to be the same civ, but too similar to be very probable to be included (though with Macedon and very British Scotland here, anything is possible...). So while I'd love to see Anglo-Saxons or Francia, I wouldn't count on it, and I don't think Alfred the Great or Charlemagne make sense for England/France. I'm torn on a later Medieval English leader, though; England was really a second-rate power for most of the Middle Ages--yet at the same time there are plenty of interesting personalities to draw from the period like Henry V, Empress Matilda, and Richard III. Altogether, though, I think Tudor period is ideal for representing England: it's when England (independent from the UK) was at the peak of its power and influence and already on the cusp of empire. Plus Elizabeth I may be one of the most fascinating individuals in history, and Civ has yet to do her brilliant, vain, charismatic, eloquent, fiery, moody, mercurial self justice. :love:
Henry V would also be interesting, only for the sole reason of getting a Longbowman UU again. Though if the Civ UU is the longbowman I'm not sure he's needed and would rather the leader go to Elizabeth I, Victoria again, or Alfred the Great.
I think a separate Charlemagne/Frankish civ is more likely than a separate Anglo-Saxon civ, only because Charlemagne has technically appeared before leading the HRE, but who knows about the future?

Since someone mentioned "the unchanging Mandate of Heaven" as a feature for "the Chinese continuity", I would like offer a quick and interesting reminder: Qin Shi Huang, the very first Emperor of the whole China, was actually not a supporter of Mandate of Heaven.
Not surprising considering he wanted to try to live forever and rule by drinking mercury. :mischief:
 
I feel like Firaxis should do a poll to see which Civs are the most wanted, so they can do them for Civ 7. Not saying they will, just saying they should.
 
Henry V would also be interesting, only for the sole reason of getting a Longbowman UU again.
My thinking is he could quote Shakespeare and "close the gap with our English dead," but that works, too. :p

I think a separate Charlemagne/Frankish civ is more likely than a separate Anglo-Saxon civ, only because Charlemagne has technically appeared before leading the HRE, but who knows about the future?
I would guess the opposite because the franchise is run by Anglophones who are more conscious of Medieval English history, but as you say, who knows?

I feel like Firaxis should do a poll to see which Civs are the most wanted, so they can do them for Civ 7. Not saying they will, just saying they should.
No, they shouldn't, or else Civ7's roster will be made up 100% of modern countries because that's who the casual audience will vote for. Say goodbye to interesting historical civs and say hello to Bosnia, Montenegro, Chile, and the Central African Republic. :rolleyes:
 
Why?
Korea is blobbed with pre-Korean kingdoms because that's the official line in Korea.
When I asked for something like that? I dont ask for Shang civ. The ancient kingdoms of Korea are mainly the direct ancestors of Koreans on their small peninsula, while Tibetans, Jurchen or Hmongs are not the ancenstors of Hans on a way bigger region that is current China.

Why?
Japan is usually blobbed with the Ryukyuans (shamisen, karate,...) because that's the official line in Japan.
Ryukyuans have not the weight or size of Tibetans or Jurchen/Manchu. Of course Ryukyuans are not Japanese still you lose proportion, the cultural difference is less, while their numbers and area is way smaller than Hmongs.

By the way I would like to have an Ainu civ instead.

Why?
Vietnam is now blobbed with Dong Son and Nam Viet because that's the official line in Vietnam.
Lets have a Champ civ that could be nice. But again every country have something like that but the size of China on population, area and recorded history make others regions irrelevant.

Why?
China is blobbed however because that's, once again, how China presents itself.
I am mexican, México is named that way because the Mexica ("Aztecs"), so why are not on game the civ of México with either Nezahualcoóyotl or Benito Juárez as leaders?

It's not really a grand conspiracy of barking up the right tree to get permission to sell the game in East Asia. It's simply that Civ isn't that strongly interested in the region. Chinese don't consider Manchu Chinese. Nor do they think Hmong and others are the same as them. Minority villages are literally Disneyland tourist attractions in China where tourists pay lots of money to marvel at how not Chinese these people are. But just like you don't hear any Europeans cry for a Romani civ, they never have a reason to show these things when presenting themselves externally.
Romani are neither native or majority on any part of Europe. Did Romani conquered one of the biggest empires of the world twice? Did Romani built and empire that fought chinese, turks, arabs, etc on the Middle Age? Are Romani the native people that revolted century after century againts many dynasties with massive mortality?

After all, the western player/watchers wants China with their great walls and Japanese with their samurai, ...
Have on game Tibetans, Manchus or Hmongs should not be a problem then, because if Firaxis have no fear of what CCP would think you can just have Chinese civ like you can have USA and Haudenosaunee on the same game. China would still heve the lovely great wall like Ainu civ would not take the japanese samurai.

...not some people they never knew existed and have zero idea where they lived, how they lived or what they did.
Of course like all they knew and wanted Cree or Mapuche. I can put again the questions I did with Romani vs Tibetans or Manchu, and even with Hmong civs like Mapuche, Cree or Maori are less impressive since these ones resisted way less time way futher away of their imperial enemies.

I still think that Jurchen and Tibetan Empire are very easy inclusions into civ and both have a chance to make it into Civ7. Much more so than Hmong, Khitans, Hayato or Da Li, who all fall under the "sorry, but there's little to no interest for you here" category.
Actually agree, but the Hmong is a good example of how double standard is the civ selection considering the size, population, distance and time they resisted compared to other "native resistence" civs that are taken for granted just because were conquered by western powers.

EDIT: Many typos.
 
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My thinking is he could quote Shakespeare and "close the gap with our English dead," but that works, too. :p
That's the sole reason why I'd want Sejong back for Korea too for him getting the Hwacha UU, while the Turtle ship could be the civ UU. Along with a Seowon district that produces culture rather than science. :)

No, they shouldn't, or else Civ7's roster will be made up 100% of modern countries because that's who the casual audience will vote for. Say goodbye to interesting historical civs and say hello to Bosnia, Montenegro, Chile, and the Central African Republic. :rolleyes:
I assumed it would be for Civfanatics or the civ reddit crowd, not Youtube or Twitter. :mischief:

Of course like all they knew and wanted Cree or Mapuche. Again I can put again the questions I did with Romani vs Tibetans or Manchu, and even with Hmong civs like Mapuche, Cree or Maori are less impressive since these ones resisted way less time way futher away of their imperial enemies.
Regarding the Cree and Maori as civs in the game I don't think there consideration of being in the game has anything to do with their supposed resistance to western powers. I just see them as being the "token" representative of Native North America (not Mesoamerica) and Polynesia at this point.
As for the Mapuche obviously they most likely got in because of their successful resistance against the Spanish Empire, but I'm fine with getting another civ in South America, and no it's not like Asia didn't get any new civs either.
 
That's the sole reason why I'd want Sejong back for Korea too for him getting the Hwacha UU, while the Turtle ship could be the civ UU. Along with a Seowon district that produces culture rather than science. :)
I still want Gwanggaeto or Taejo, but Sejong would be fine.

I assumed it would be for Civfanatics or the civ reddit, not Youtube or Twitter. :mischief:
That will be skewed the other way. :crazyeye: :lol:
 
Regarding the Cree and Maori as civs in the game I don't think there consideration of being in the game has anything to do with their supposed resistance to western powers. I just see them as being the "token" representative of Native North America (not Mesoamerica) and Polynesia at this point.
As for the Mapuche obviously they most likely got in because of their successful resistance against the Spanish Empire, but I'm fine with getting another civ in South America, and no it's not like Asia didn't get any new civs either.
Agree, you are right that is the most likely reasoning about those civs. Especially since Cree are at least kind of know on Canada and USA, while Mapuche are know in Chile and Argentina.

But now the question that we have is: Is not China big, populous, diverse, old and wealthy enough to be considered a region by itself?
I am sure most people with enough historical context would agree that the answer is yes.

Then, why when we could have more civs from the area of current China, instead we have Canada + Cree?
I think the answer would say more about the current politic and ecomony of both China and Western countries than about the history of those regions.
 
No, they shouldn't, or else Civ7's roster will be made up 100% of modern countries because that's who the casual audience will vote for. Say goodbye to interesting historical civs and say hello to Bosnia, Montenegro, Chile, and the Central African Republic. :rolleyes:
100% this. Don't ask the normies their preference please, otherwise we will end up with a basketful of exotic modern culture like Canada (I'm pretty sure I'm allowed to say that cuz I'm Canadian). One Canada is enough, we don't have any more instances of Canada. :) They will most likely vote for the country they are from, countries with high population will definitely skew the poll. For example, I'm ethnically Vietnamese and I will still be ok if Vietnam sits out of Civ7, and instead we have Burma or Siam coming back as the representative for SEA, you know, places that are actually culturally interesting. If we have such a poll, I have a looming thought at the back of my head the SEA representative will be the Philippines, and I cannot describe how disappointed I will be. Same feelings regarding requests like Argentina, or like even Gran Colombia, a state that existed for merely a decade.
My coworker is Nigerian and he doesn't know there exists a country called the Republic of Central Africa.
 
I assumed it would be for Civfanatics or the civ reddit crowd, not Youtube or Twitter. :mischief:

it says a lot that Chola is one of the most popular civs here, but for most Civ casuals, they’d be ‘who?’

that said, Firaxis, if you’re reading this, throw us a bone and please add the Chola.
History books and all that growing up always referred to China as the only ancient civilization to have continued into the present era, unlike say Ancient Greece or Egypt in my experience. We obviously have modern Greece and Egypt, but they're very much different from the civilizations they claim heritage from (with Greece not really claiming to be "Greek" until like the 19th century as nationalism and education reform took place - they still very much considered themselves inheritors of Roman legacies while under Ottoman occupation at that time).

I would also say Ancient Greece and Egypt were both taken over by various powers with different cultures after their heydays like the Romans, Ottomans etc. China experienced dynastic changes and the Mongol invasions but the Mongol Yuan dynasty became very Chinese culturally as did the later Manchu Qing dynasty to a certain degree, so I guess that's why the average person views China as continuous unlike Greece or Rome. You could also go into a discussion about the Western perception of the East as stagnant, continually entrenched and tied to the past as opposed to a forward-moving modernizing West but I don't think it's at all that deep since the game is pop culture and most players are average people who are not cross examining Civ 6 via critical theory lol

Also I'm not a super expert on Chinese historiography so like don't quote me on anything lol

All that aside, I don't really think China needs to be de-blobbed since it never really got wild imo. In Civ 6 China is emphasizing the ancient through medieval eras, with only the Crouching Tiger Cannon thing as poking out temporally in Qin's kit. It's not like Germany's U-Boat jammed right onto 3 medieval unique assets and lacking synergy... And having like three different kind Chinese dynasties as separate civs just seems excessive especially if it's at the cost of other (potentially new) civs from the same area.
China is one of those deals where it makes more sense to have three leaders than deblobbed civ, if you ask me.

if civ wasn’t about empires and civilizations, and more about cultures, then it might make sense to have a ‘cantonese’, ‘han’, ‘tibetan’ civs, etc. and sales in the PRC might not even be impacted. But culture != civ, so i think it makes more sense to have have 3 leaders for
 
Agree, you are right that is the most likely reasoning about those civs. Especially since Cree are at least kind of know on Canada and USA, while Mapuche are know in Chile and Argentina.

But now the question that we have is: Is not China big, populous, diverse, old and wealthy enough to be considered a region by itself?
I am sure most people with enough historical context would agree that the answer is yes.

Then, why when we could have more civs from the area of current China, instead we have Canada + Cree?
I think the answer would say more about the current politic and ecomony of both China and Western countries than about the history of those regions.
Honestly it is a political thing probably. And I'd be all for at least a separate Tibet civ but I don't know how feasible it is. Then again it's getting to the point where it's hard to implement native civs from U.S./Canada without people calling for misappropriation, unfortunately.

100% this. Don't ask the normies their preference please, otherwise we will end up with a basketful of exotic modern culture like Canada (I'm pretty sure I'm allowed to say that cuz I'm Canadian). One Canada is enough, we don't have any more instances of Canada. :) They will most likely vote for the country they are from, countries with high population will definitely skew the poll. For example, I'm ethnically Vietnamese and I will still be ok if Vietnam sits out of Civ7, and instead we have Burma or Siam coming back as the representative for SEA, you know, places that are actually culturally interesting. If we have such a poll, I have a looming thought at the back of my head the SEA representative will be the Philippines, and I cannot describe how disappointed I will be. Same feelings regarding requests like Argentina, or like even Gran Colombia, a state that existed for merely a decade.
I'd personally like for mainland SEA to get the Africa treatment that Civ 6 did. That is have one civ/leader represented from one specific era.
Classical Era-Vietnam
Medieval Era-Khmer
Renaissance Era- Burma
Industrial Era- Siam
:)

My coworker is Nigerian and he doesn't know there exists a country called the Republic of Central Africa.
It's technically called the Central African Republic.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_African_Republic
 
May I suggest the Seljuks under Alp Arslan or Mizan al-Mulk?
I'd personally like for mainland SEA to get the Africa treatment that Civ 6 did. That is have one civ/leader represented from one specific era.
Classical Era-Vietnam
Medieval Era-Khmer
Renaissance Era- Burma
Industrial Era- Siam
:)
Does that mean if Civ 6 gets a Modern Era African Civ, we get the Philippines to represent that part in Civ 7? :mischief:
 
It's technically called the Central African Republic.
Oops sorry, we are French-speaking, things are a little bit backward where we are lol. My father was there for a peacekeeping mission in 2015, and since the country is also French-speaking, the word Republic comes first :)

Vietnam is ancient/classical in Civ6 already, let's make it Medieval in Civ7 :) Le Thanh Tong or Tran Nhan Tong pleaseeeee. And I'd replace Khmer with Indonesia. I like naval civs, and considering how important seas and oceans are in this region, it is crucial to have a naval civ still, unless somehow Vietnam takes that role in Civ7.
 
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May I suggest the Seljuks under Alp Arslan or Mizan al-Mulk?

Does that mean if Civ 6 gets a Modern Era African Civ, we get the Philippines to represent that part in Civ 7? :mischief:
Well I said mainland, considering I didn't put Indonesia in there, which would probably be based off of Medieval Majapahit Empire again.

Besides I consider Menelik II our modern African leader. I mean he died in 1913. :p

Oops sorry, we are French-speaking, things are a little bit backward where we are lol. My father was there for a peacekeeping mission in 2015, and since the country is also French-speaking, the word Republic comes first :)
Ah, you must be from the eastern part of Canada. :mischief:

Vietnam is ancient/classical in Civ6 already, let's make it Medieval in Civ7 :) Le Thanh Tong or Tran Nhan Tong pleaseeeee
Sure I can live with that. I just don't necessarily want that on top of the possibility of having Medieval Burma, Majapahit Empire again, and possibly Medieval (Sukothai) Siam returning. :crazyeye:
 
Well I said mainland, considering I didn't put Indonesia in there, which would probably be based off of Medieval Majapahit Empire again.

Besides I consider Menelik II our modern African leader. I mean he died in 1913. :p
Ah, I see. Menelik II is more of an Industrial modernizer, in my eyes.
 
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