Discussion in 'Rhye's and Fall - Dawn of Civilization' started by 1SDAN, Sep 27, 2019.
Woah! That looks amazing!
How do you play with the big map?
I don't know if it's been detailed but I know it's been mentioned. Here goes:
Proposal for New Civ: Golden Horde
Leader: Batu Khan
Starting Religion: Tengrism (Favourite: Islam)
Spawn: 1242 AD at Sarai Batu (AI Spawn in 13th C conditional on Mongols conquering a settlement north of the Caucasus and being unstable)
1242 representing the beginning of Batu Khan's rule, conditional spawn criteria because the Mongols conquered Kiev and Volga Bulgaria through the Caucasus and the Golden Horde only emerged after breaking the Empire up into separate Khanates
Starting Civics: (Same as Mongols)
UP: Wings of the Horde - civilizations are more willing to capitulate (the Golden Horde had several Eurasian vassals, this will contribute to UHV2)
UHV1: Islamic Khanate - Have 5 religions present, control a Grand Islamic Mosque and be the largest Islamic civilization in the world by 1350AD (Uzbeg Khan the longest ruling Khan of the Golden Horde Islamisized the Empire)
UHV2: Blue Horde - Control cores of 2 European civs and have 3 European vassals by 1400AD. (values negotiable but I think it's historically appropriate if a bit aspirational, the Golden Horde directly controlled the Kievan Rus as well as Volga Bulgaria and had a number of vassals in Eastern Europe, these fell under the Western Blue Horde)
UHV3: White Horde - Control 20% of the land area of Eurasia. (in reality they controlled 10% of Eurasia but allowing for the goal to be a bit aspirational and accounting for an enlarged European map we could go up to 15-20% values negotiable in the end, this goal encourages the player to reconquer territories belonging to the Mongols and their successor states as the Golden Horde was at times at war with the Ilkhanate and Chatagai Khanate, these would fall under the Eastern White Horde)
Alt UHV: Control all of Eastern Europe (This is purely aspirational, in reality the Golden Horde never controlled all of Eastern Europe, though they tried)
(All UHVs emphasize the expansive conquering trait of the Mongols and the Golden Horde but give a slight variety; UHV1 focusing on religion, UHV2 slightly more on diplomacy and UHV3 can be achieved through a combination of conquering and settling, but mostly conquering).
Why have the Golden Horde as a distinct Mongol civilization?
The Golden Horde was the least connected to the political center of Genghis Khan's successor states and is thus most deserving of representation. Though it experienced a long period of decline in the late 1300s to the year 1500, it was by-far the longest lasting of the direct successor states of the Mongol Empire. In the aftermath of the Mongol collapse the Ilkhanate and Chatagai Khanate are already-represented by Turkic/Mughal empires and the Yuan Dynasty by China. Perhaps the Golden Horde could be represented by the Khazars but the Khazars game ends around the time of the Mongol invasion. It would seem odd to have them be destroyed by the Mongols only to respawn after a Mongol collapse just in time to collapse for the rise of Muscovy. The Golden Horde can additionally clear the playing field in Eastern Europe for the rise of Muscovy, perhaps more effectively than the Mongols currently do because they won't be as susceptible to collapse.
I really don't know what to do for UU and UB that would be sufficiently different from the Mongols and I think that is a big factor in actually making this an interesting and worthwhile addition. If anyone has any suggestions please contribute.
EDIT: Additionally Muscovy would have to be balanced.
EDIT EDIT: One more thought on why the Golden Horde shouldn't be represented by the Khazars, the Golden Horde, unlike the Khazars was not nomadic.
Proposal for New Civ: Sogdians
Leader: Oxyartes (the father of Roxana, the Alexander the Great's wife)
Starting Religion: Khurmazta. Its is a syncretic form of Zoroastrianism which was practiced among the Sogdians. It mixes Zoroastrianism with Hinduism, Buddhism and various pagans religions. Core: All Transoxiana. The AI are more likely to expand and build cities in Bukhara and Kashgar regions.
Spawn: 546 BC at Samarkand
Merchant Trade (Favourite)
UP: Silk Road's Masters: Every time a Great Merchant conduct a trade mission it, also gives 1000 culture to the sogdian's capital. The sogodians, are not remembered just as a great traders, but also the best servants, translaters and to expand news ideas and custons along the Silk Road and China.
UU: Ferghana heavenly horse riders: 8 strenght 2 movement 70 hammers, replaces horse archer. Start with Formation and Skirmish. The Ferghana horses, or as common called "Heavenly" or "Nisean", was the best horses in the ancient times, exported to many places, like China and Iran.
UB: Sogdian's Silk Weaver: replaces weaver, requires currency, cost: 80 hammers, gives: +3 culture, can turn 1 citizen into Artist, Merchant; +1 trade routes, +1 happiness from sheep, cotton, dye and 2+ happiness from Silk, fur. The Sogdians are the best silkers weavers in their time, and are remembered by the large amount of their silk export, and also, the fur trades with the north nomads, give to them great profit.
UHV1: Supremacy on the Silk Road - Become the most wealthiest and more cultured civ in the world in 301 AD and control or have trade acess to 3 Luxury Resources.
UHV2: Great Servants - Have 1 zoroastrian, orthodoxy(nestorian) and buddhist temple, and convert 1 chinese city to zoroastrian, orthodoxy and buddhism faith and dont change the Khurmazta as a traditional religion by 700 AD. The Sogdians were great propagators of religions, especially in China and in the Tarim Basin. However, its syncretic character is interesting, always assimilating, but never abandoning its traditional beliefs.
UHV3: Become the Saoshyant - Dont lose any cities to barbarian, persians, greeks, yuezhi, turks and Arabs, and ensure there no arab controlled cities in Iran and Transoxiana in 1000AD. The Sogdians survived countless conquerors from the Scythians, Parthians, Kushans and Turks, until they were subjugated and subjected by Islamic conquerors in the 8th century.
New wonder: Sogdian Rock (or Rock of Arimazes). 250 hammers, requires zoroastrism and paganism, walls and castle, gives + 2 culture, +1 trade routes, +50% Defense (except vs gunpowder based units), city more likely to generate merchant. Double production speed with stone.
To learn more:
I recommend that it is no longer possible for Turks or Mongols to receive cities by flip in Transoxiana and Tarim Basin for free, because these lands are considered native lands by their respective civilizations, the Sogdians and the Tocharians (Yuezhi), not make any sense that they change sides of nowhere if these civilizations are still alive.
The Yuezhi should have moved out of the Tarim Basin long before the rise of the Turks, as was their history. Nevermind how poor their original core is compared to their changed core area. With the Yuezhi, I really wanted to capture their migratory early history, and the coming Xiongnu Civ will help enforce that... once I figure out why my python event code for ceding to demands isn't working. And test them further. And watch some AI games to make sure I didn't break anything.
Update: I got the demand tribute uhv working. Had to bring in CvDiplomacy from Beyond the Sword and slightly modify it as the DLL method wasn't working and I don't fully understand how anything works in that neck of the DLL anyways.
Any thoughts on replacing the Hunnic and/or Hephthalite Barbarian Spawns with a scripted invasion of Europe and India by the Xiongnu?
One of the UHVs will be about the possiblility of Xiongnu being cognate with Hun and Hunas, and DCR has so far replaced a lot of Barb and Indy spawns with full Civs, and I doubt a Hun or Hepthalite Civ is feasible, given how short their histories were and lack of contiguous historical predecessors and descendants. However, this would mean including historical speculation as scripted events.
Likewise, what's everyone's thoughts on including the Xianbei Confederation and Rouran Khaganate as Xiongnu Dynamic Names? It'd extend the existence of the Xiongnu right up to the rise of the Turks, though the Xianbei did conquer the Xiongnu to rise to power.
IMO, the Hepthalites (and the other Central Asian Huna kingdoms/empires) are probably better represented by a continuation or respawn of the Kushan civ, given that they were basically in the strong geographical, historical, and cultural parallels (e.g. they were all founded by nomadic tribes that settled down in basically the same area, were all at least possibly or partly East Iranian, and all were highly Bactrianized once they settled down). Also makes the historical Kushan timeline longer.
Hard disagree, the Hepthalites are far more appropriate as a continuation of a Xiongu civ. They entered the area in the same way that the Huns did in Europe and China, displacing the native people and establishing military domination. Furthermore the Hepthalites were theorised to be Turkic or one of the other nomadic central asian groups, whereas the Yuezhi were Indo-Europeans.
I think that Xiongu should also represent the Huns and Hepthalites, and should be renamed to the "Hunnic Civilisation", but have dynamic names.
...and how is that different from the Yuezhi/Kushans, who were also nomadic invaders who conquered the area and then assimilated into Bactrian culture just as the Hepthalites did?
There's no clear evidence as to whether the Hephthalites and other Central Asian Hunas were Turkic or Iranian (some sources even suggest they might have been a branch of the Yuezhi), and in all likelihood they were probably a mix of both (ethnic identity was far more mixed and nebulous at this point than most traditional retellings would have you believe). Remember too that the Turkic migrations into Central Asia would have really only been beginning at this point and there were almost certainly still many nomadic tribes in the area that were some form of Eastern Iranian, related to the Sakas and Sarmatians.
The Yuezhi displaced the Bactrians, who can be represented by either the Greek civilisation, Persian civilisation or an independent civ. It would be profoundly strange to have the Bactrian civ represent the Yuezhi civ, and the same for the Yuezhi civ to represent the Hepthalite Civ.
Another reason a continuation or respawn doesn't make sense is because the Kushan still existed as a vassal of Persia and was still invaded by the Hepthalites. If this situation occurs in game, or a player/AI Kushan are strong, there should still be invaders from Central Asia that are either barbarian or another civ.
I'm unsure about using the Xiongnu to represent the Huns/Hunas/Hepthalites as conquerors ingame, because, as remarked before, we do not have any substantial evidence that they were the same people. The point of the UHV using this theory is just a way to give a distinct, challenging and fun UHV while having somewhat educational purposes (I do think that mods like DoC and DCR serve this purpose as well!). Also important to note, UHVs usually represent historical achievements of said civ and ahistorical ones.
Being said that, I also not sure about the effects that this option would bring in regular games. Taking the Hunnic case (that I think most of us know better), their barbaric spawns serve not only to destabilize and ensure the collapse of the Romans (or eventualy a Greek-dominated classical world) but also to open space for medieval civs by razing and pillaging. Would a Xiongnu civ do the same? Additionaly, would feel historical to have a civ that basically ensures that Mediterranean classical civs would have permanent contact with China without having to conquer Persia?
About the Yuezhi/Kushan, I'm also unsure about using them as Hunas/Hepthalites for the same reasons, although I see more elements that justify their use as such than in the Hunnic/Xiongnu case, as suggested by DC123456789. The main point, in my view, is BaneFire argument: the Kushans continued to exist past the collapse of their empire, so it would be somewhat weird having they represent the next generation of nomad conquerors.
The Xiongnu/Xianbei/Rouran case, I honestly do not have much to say. The little that I've read about them point that the Xianbei people are much older (as a political entity) than the Xiongnu, so perhaps that would make weird to have a newer civ representing the continuation of an existing (in historical terms) older one. More or less, the Xiongnu successor states continued to exist for centuries after the collapse of their empire. Anyway, probably would be better to ask the opinion of someone who knows more about East Asian ancient history, possibly one of DoC/DCR's Chinese players.
Technically if we're going to be quibbling about that the Kushano-Sassanids were destroyed by the Kidarites, who were then themselves conquered by the Hepthalites. But remember that in RFC/DoC civs represent, well, civs, not individual polities, particularly at this point in the timeline, and there is nothing inconsistent about having one polity being conquered by another polity that are both part of the same civ. The relationship between the Seljuks/Khwarezmenids and the Timurids, both of whom are considered part of the same Turkic civ with a Mongolian "interruption", is similar IMO. At the scale and granularity that RFC and the Civ 4 engine more generally has, these sorts of smaller distinctions kind of have to be abstracted away, particularly in the relatively chaotic Central Asian region.
Proposal for New Civ: Armenians.
Leader: Tigranes II (in ancient age) and Ashot I (in medieval age and beyond).
Starting Religion: Iranian Cults, like the persian in ancient age, Orthodoxy in medieval times.
Spawn: 570 BC (the Orontid Dynasty) or maybe 860 BC (kingdom of Urartu)
UP: Lands of Ararat: Hills given +2 food and peak givens +1food and +1 culture. Armenia is known for being surrounded by mountains and the legendary Mount Ararat is a national symbol of Armenians. In the current map, the expectations of food resources are not very promising.
Nakharar System: When you change your national religion to a foreign religion, you can recruit the special unit's of the owner of the religion Holy city and boost the relations with the holy city owner, if you control the holy city, you receive extra religion happiness. For a long time the kingdom of Armenia was divided between Romans (Byzantines) and Persians (Parthians and Sassanids), many of the dynasties and institutions of Ancient Armenia were imported from their foreign masters. Both the Persians and the Byzantines use cataphracts, a early version of the knights, and the Armenians were known to have superb cataphracts since the time of Mithridates VI of Pontus. It would be a form of Armenians to share the common models of chivalry that they shared with both Persians and Byzantines.
UU: Azatavrear: the cataphract national pride of the armenians, a heavy armoured noble. Replaces the horseman. Have 8 strength, a pseudo-knight.(Imported of RFC Classical World) AND/OR Vishap Infantary: replaces swordman: 0-1 first strike, can withdraw (10%), +50% hill strength +25% melee.(imported from RFC Sword of islam) AND/OR Kartli Axeman: replaces axeman, 8 strength, + 50% melee. (imported idea from Rome II Total war).
UB: Khachkar: replaces monument, gives Free guerilla I for units built in this city. (imported form RFC Sword of Islam).
UHV1: The Great Armenia- Have a Orthodoxy Cathedral or a Zoroastrian Royal fire and settle 3 great priest both in your capital in 303 AD. This represent the largest extension of the ancient Armenia Kingdom (you need 4 cities with temples to build a cathedral), the date and the number of great priest is based in the build of the Etchmiadzin cathedral, the convert to christianity and the 3 saints: Gregory the Iluminator, St. Thaddeus and St. Bartholomew. As the date of the peak of ancient Armenia was 89 BC, it seemed reasonable to extend it until 303 to include the orthodox religion. It would be a nice synergy with the second UP proposal.
UHV2: Leo V ambitions - Control, Greece, Anatolia, Armenia and Syria, make Constantinople your capital and make your empire have more monasteries in the world in 857 AD. This represent the reign of the armenians basileis of byzantine empire as Leo V and the amorian dynasty. I dont know how representating the Iconoclasm and the Paulicianism.
UHV3: Bagratid Glory - Control Armenia and Cilicia until 1375 and ensure that dont have any muslim civ in anatolia and Balkans. This represent the struggle between the armenians and the muslim invaders as the Abbasids and the Seljuks. Besides this, the armenian kingdom of Cilicia survives until 1375.
New wonder: Narekavank: 250 hammers, +4 cultures + 1 great person focus. Can turn 1 people in priest, artist or scholar, receive a Great Saint when build. (imported from RFC sword of Islam).
Bagratid Cathedral: 400 hammers, +6 cultures, +1 great people focus (priest). +10% culture in all your cities, +1 happiness with orthodoxy church. (imported from RFC sword of islam).
To learn more:
That UHV 2 is pretty ambitious lol
Added AI Polynesia (not yet in 600 AD)
Chimu UHV now uses current capital
Added South Sudanese resource events in 1600 and 1850 for Cows and Oil, respectively
Spawn: 400 BC
UP: The Power of Nomads - Cavalry units starts with the Mobility promotion, + 25% production for Light Cavalry units.
UB: Ger-Tereg - Replaces Stable. +1 Production. +1 Culture.
UU: Guli - Replaces Horseman. Does not require Iron/Copper. Light Cavalry. Starts with Leadership.
UHV1: Heqin - Succesfully demand tribute from 5 different civilizations by 210 CE
UHV2: The Great Nomadic Empire - Be the largest civilization in the world in 210 CE
UHV3: Lost Hunnic Connection - Conquer a city in Europe and India by 560 CE
Note on Polynesia: The only major changes I made to their AI is that they value Citizens more and are less picky when settling cities (aka, the max value a plot requires for them to consider settling it is lower for Polynesia)
Here's a status update for currently and as of yet not currently planned civs:
Lithuania: Next Major Update
Golden Horde: Following Lithuania
Pueblo: Eventually. I'm going to need to make a model for their UB as the one that I did was rather underwhelming and didn't really give a good idea of what kind of structure it was.
Sogdia: Currently not planned. I am concerned about how they'll impact the Yuezhi's chances at conquest, though as a counter to that, they might make the Yuezhi early game more consistent by warding off Persian conquests of the region in favour of capitulation/vassalization. At the same time, that means they'll have to start with enough units that they could feasibly defend against the Yuezhi conquerors, which is itself a bit of an issue. In summation, unless there's some periods in which a resurrection would make sense, I'm not sure their existence as an AI would be long enough to truly warrant being added.
Scythians: Probably not for all the reasons previously described by other people.
Assyria: Following Big Map's Addition
Armenia, Hittites: I'll consider them following Big Map's Addition
Scotland, Chile, Peru: Following Scrolling Scoreboard's Addition (I really need to get back to trying to figure out the code for that)
Iraq, Bolivia: Maybe, same requirement as Scotland.
Maori: Would be interesting to have a nation to interact with the Polynesians, especially since their AI is now in game and pretty consistently explores and settles New Zealand due to the tile they spawn on. While I have other priorities before them, I absolutely plan on adding them eventually.
Goths: Eventually. I've been wanting to also rework France's early game so they'll probably come in the same update.
North Deccans and Maratha: Eventually.
Haiti: Still on the fence for this.
Songhai, Zulu: Probably not. Their historical time span and territory, respectively, are very small.
Also, new small, long overdue update.
Arabia no longer erroneously starts by being led by Saladin, now stars with Harun
Mamluks no longer erroneously starts by being led by Baibars, now starts with Saladin
This has been out for the last hour but I was spending time with family so I have only now been able to complete this post to announce it and my plans. Yes, I did go through every single page of this thread to gather all the suggestions. If I missed anything, please let me know.
Or... wait for a certain PR.
I did a suggestion for Mixtec/ Zapotec but it probably needs a lot more work before it could be added.
@1SDAN, I tried making a pull request but GitHub is buggy and sent it to Leoreth instead. The page is still "taking too long to load." May I suggest that you make the change yourself?
You just need to switch lines 661 and 662 in Consts.py, so that the order is correct, as below:
The bug made the Olmecs able to declare war on Babylonia upon spawn, which is ... immersion breaking, to say the least.
Separate names with a comma.