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Civilizations Reborn

Discussion in 'Rhye's and Fall - Dawn of Civilization' started by 1SDAN, Sep 27, 2019.

  1. phoenixfire7

    phoenixfire7 Chieftain

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    I'm running the republic civic and it says at least one slot for artist, scientist merchant, statesman but it only gives me a slot for scientist.
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2020
  2. Steb

    Steb King

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    To get the slot for specialist X, you need to be able to build a building that grants such a slot. In other words, you need e.g. Writing to get the free scientist slot. Unfortunately this is not specified in the civic description, which in my opinion is a problem.
     
    triplebassist, 1SDAN and phoenixfire7 like this.
  3. Krieger-FS

    Krieger-FS Chieftain

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    Back when I was researching about the Xiongnu to make the civ suggestion, I was also sketching some ideas for the Scythians, so we could potentially have a "nomadic update". While the art is easily available (History Rewritten, for exemple, has the civ included), I could not make a very clear proposal because there are several issues that we have to deal to make them playable. Most of issues, if taken individually, are not that problematic, but together they make considerably harder (at least in my view) to make a viable and solid case for inclusion, which I explain in more detail below.

    Spoiler :

    First, we have to remenber that the Scythians are a kind of vague notion and refers to several peoples that were never unified in one polity. This is not that problematic, since we have other civs in similar situation, like the Celts in DoC Reborn and even the Polynesians in DoC vanilla, that didn't prevent their inclusion. In fact, this diversity could be particularly useful and interesting to make the UHVs. Either way, we must decide whose Scythian people we are refering here. My initial idea is to base them with the classical Scythians of Pontic Steppes, the later Sarmatians and the Sakas in Central Asia. They are argably the more influential Scythian peoples and the ones that we know more about. This choice gave us a spawn date around 8-9th century BCE and a gameplay time possibly until early Medieval era, with a map presence from the Balkans to India, largely replacing the barbarian horseman/horse archers in these regions with a proper civilization.

    While the addition of the Scythians could create an interesting interaction with the classical civs within this large area, we have the issue of how to ensure that the Scythians behave historically (pillaging and attacking the southern neighbors) and also prevent an ahistorical expansion of classical civs to the northern steppes, which not only would create strange ahistorical scenarios were the steppes could be widely developed but also leads to frequent and early collapses. Some old tricks could help here (like an UU similar to the Turks civ and autorazing conquered Scythian cities), but we have to take these considerations in mind.

    But I see as the main issue the fact that the Scythians are true nomads. What I mean is that they almost rarely founded cities and we do not have much information required to make a city map for them. Civ 6, the only game of the series that officially included the Scythian civilization, has a list of modern Russian cities (those where we find archeological remains) as Scythian ones. Tribal names can help, but they hardly would fill the gap completely. Looking in easily accessible sources (wikipedia), we can find that they had an interesting relationship with the Greek cities in Crimea (where was located one of the few recorded cities founded by the Scythians, the Greek-named and capital Scythian Neapolis) and in Central Asia and Northern India, which were the core areas of the Indo-Saka Kingdoms, what can help somehow in these regions. Nonetheless, these are argably the most peripheral areas of the Scythian civ; the core, where the Scythians originally came from (around Caspian Sea), we do not have almost none information and was a nomadic steppe.

    The second issue raises the question, long debated within the community, of how to proper represent the nomadic peoples in Civilization games, whose core gameplay is based in founding and managing cities. DoC Reborn has touched somewhat this question before when 1SDAN added the Khazars (from which we have considerably more information about than the Scythians), but nonetheless is something that I personally think we should discuss more, not only within this modmod but also within DoC vanilla. And who knows, if we can come if a ideas to properly represent the nomads, we could also represent properly other non-state and non-urban civilizations, which would allow us to potentially include many other native American and/or native sub-Saharian African civs.


    Anyway, besides these large considerations, here is some of the ideas that I have sketched before, athough I coudn't reach a more definitive and clear proposal:

    Spoiler :

    The Scythians
    (Civ dynamic name changes according to the location of capital and age, alternating to the use of Scythian, Sarmatian, Saka and Indo-Saka + government [default could be tribes or confederation]).

    Spawn/Location: 900-800 BCE, near northern Caspian Sea.
    (The spawn date and area refers to the estimated date/region that the Scythians peoples come to historical records. Recent archeological finds created new debates about the original Scythian homeland, which may be around modern Tuva [in southern Siberia] or a even more eastern region).
    Leaders: Tomyris, Ateas, Maues
    (all the LHs are available in other mods like History Rewritten and RFC Classical World, although the Maues LH is too much similar to Timur in the latter).
    Expansion stability: the Scythians lived in a very large area that roughly is an crescent from modern day Romenia to Northern India. This huge historical area could create some issues about expansion stability, so we can adjust to make them likely collapse.

    UP: ?
    (Honestly, I cound't come with a good idea for the UP besides the generic nomad style UP that gives bonus to horse units and pasture related resources)
    UU: Aspabarata (Horse Archer) and/or Drunabarata (Scythian Archer) and/or Azaryanaka (Lancer)
    (The most obvious choice would be the Horse Archer unit, which were the core of all Scythian armies. If we want to make them more unique, it could be a female horse archer, giving that Scythian women had proeminent role in war and were likely the origin of the Amazons myth. The archer UU represents not only the Scythian prowess with their bows but also refers to the mercenaries that served several Greek cities, incluinding Athens, that had a Scythian "police" force. Because of this role, we could give a special feature that allow to "sell" the UU similarly as we can sell slaves for colonial purposes. The last proposed UU refers to the fact that the Cataphract cavalry was originally developed by the Scythian peoples. Personally, I would love a Cataphract similar to the "Golden Man" founded in the Issyk kurgan, but I'm unsure if we have the art. There is a considerably work done for those kind of ancient units in other mods and in the download database here in civfanatics, so finding the art for any of these units shouldn't be a major problem)
    UB: Kurgan (replaces Monument, bonus?)
    (Another obvious choice, given that kurgans are a typical burial ground built by the Scythian peoples. Other mods use a "Scythian Stable" UB, but I find this choice somewhat silly and inapropriate, giving that the Scythian horse archers were recruited and trained within their cultural traditions during their lives rather than in specifically built structures).

    UHVs:
    Honestly, I don't have settled ideas about UHVs, but came to several possible ideas giving their history.:
    • Be the first civ to discover Nobility and control XX horse/pasture resources (or cavalry units) by XXX BCE
    • Build X kurgans (refers to the widespread existence of them in Central Asia/Pontic Steppes/Southern Siberia).
    • Ensure the collapse of a classical civilization by 530 BCE (refers to the role of the Scythians in the collapse of Assyrian Empire and also their victory over Cyrus the Great, fatally wounded in the occasion) or by 339 BCE (when the emerging Scythian Kingdom was defeated and collapsed by Phillip of Macedon)
    • Join and win X wars (via diplomatic requests) and gain XXX gold by pillaging and tributes (refers to their historical role as mercenaries; can be combined with sell X UUs if we use the mercenary feature idea).
    • Build a new capital(s) in Crimea and/or Sakastan (modern Afghanistan and Pakistan) by 60 BCE (refers to the establishment of Scythian kingdoms in these regions. We can also add Scythia Minor to the list, but I'm unsure about it)
    • Control a city in Maghreb or Britain before 500 CE (refers to the historical participation of the Sarmatians in the establishment of the Vandal Kingdom and to the theory that King Arthur was the Roman commander of a Sarmatian cavalry unit)
    Pagan URV:
    For what I could research, we know little about Scythian religion. Apparently, it was related to other ancient Iranian pre-Zoroastrian religions and seems to had some influence in the latter Turkic and Slavic mythologies. Some of the distinguished features were the worship of eight divinities, presence of shamans and Enarei (a caste of hereditary and androgynous/cross-dressing priests), animal sacrifice, particularly of horses, and also chariot burials. Thus, one of the URV could require the control of X horses, similar to the above UHV suggested.
    I couldn't come with good ideas for their pagan temples though, and I think that the Scythians would inevitably become Zoroastrian in most games.

    I did not come much with GP names, but using the three selected Scythian peoples we should have at least some options for each GP type.
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2020
  4. JimBos

    JimBos Chieftain

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    Sorry for dropping out for a bit. I've had a few internet issues. Anyway, here are the lists of great people:
    Spoiler Great People :

    This one is almost entirely artists. However, there is a linguist and a court judge who could serve as a great scientist and statesperson, respectively. Not that these are mostly anachronistic.
    This one is mostly revolt leaders that can serve as great generals, or even religious leaders, given the motivations for the revolt, e.g. Po'pay's prophecy.

    And lists from Wikipedia of major Pueblo settlements:
    Spoiler City List :

    I can arrange either of these in a csv or txt file if that's more convenient.

    However, I've realized a separate issue. I know now why no one has recommended a Pueblo civ, the land really does suck. They have space for three core cities easily, but it's totally resourceless. Further, when I "tested" the UP by putting farms on the desert tiles in the Sonaran Desert in Worldbuilder, I saw two to three food on each tile, which isn't bad. But it was only after I made the post that I realized that I was misled, and such farms produce no food! So such a civ would need more help . . . It wouldn't be inaccurate to have a bit more food there (like two corn resources) as it could also help represent cities like Salt Lake City and Phoenix and Ciudad Juarez in later periods, but I'm reluctant about such a change.

    P.S. Here are some assets for a Pueblo civ I've found throughout the site. I'm not sure if we need to ask for permissions, though.
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2020
    The 13th Earl, Krieger-FS and 1SDAN like this.
  5. TJDowling

    TJDowling King

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    Heck, that could be the UP? Being able to sell the UU
     
  6. TJDowling

    TJDowling King

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    I have no idea how to play this civ. Second try going to walk my first settler past Samarkand and just found the capital in the Hindu Kush.
     
    stillblackadder likes this.
  7. Wessel V1

    Wessel V1 Emperor

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    As for the Scythians, perhaps their UU or UP could be somewhat related to not being able to train a worker and having very high city upkeep costs? This way land stays empty, city spam is prevented and just training units to do whatever is encouraged.
     
  8. 1SDAN

    1SDAN Brother Lady

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    I used to have them start with three Asvaka but I ended up thinking it allowed them to expand a bit too early. I'll do some tests and see if I can conquer Samarkand and settle the Hindu Kush in time.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2020
  9. TJDowling

    TJDowling King

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    I was able to do the first two goals pretty easily by just walking to the Hindu Kush and founding the capital there but then I think it put me at a disadvantage with city numbers and lost productive turns that the 3rd really seemed unachievable (especially since all my cities were zoroastrian without founding Dunhuang). Production in Dunhuang is probably too low without any Asvaka to start. Only had archers and a 1 to 3 barbarian warriors flip and if Persians have an immortal and a couple archers in Samarkand warriors aren't going to make a dent. I think it was 44 turns (normal speed) to produce one asvaka in Dunhuang... I guess could whip but not much food either.
     
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  10. phoenixfire7

    phoenixfire7 Chieftain

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    I have an idea for a civ but I'm not sure it will work that well

    Mixtec/ Zapotec:
    Starts on the stone tile on the hill on Mesoamerica
    UP: ?
    UU: ?
    UB: Codex workshop replaces library +25 % Research

    UHV 1: Be the most advanced civ in the Americas when the new world conqueror event starts
    UHV 2: Conquer the Aztecs before the new world conqueror event starts
    UHV 3: Build 3 markets and 3 Codex workshops before the new world conqueror event starts
     
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  11. 1SDAN

    1SDAN Brother Lady

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    Small update to fix a handful of bugs and oversights

    Yuezhi Gandhara School's effect now only applies in cities that have built one
    The Yuezhi Core only switches if there's already a city in their old core
    The Yuezhi UP is now properly represented in the city UI
    The Yuezhi UP now also gives 1 Food per Religion (If this is too powerful I might cap it at 1 or 2 or set it to expire upon entering a new era. I haven't tested this update beyond ensuring it doesn't cause any bugs as I consider the Gandhara and UI issues rather pressing)

    On the topic of the Yuezhi UHV and Samarqand, I would suggest reloading until you get a save where Samarqand is independent, which seems rather consistently doable within a relative small handful of reloads.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2020
  12. Steb

    Steb King

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    I have been thinking about adding the Zapotecs for a long time... Earlier in this thread I concluded that they were probably not interesting enough, so I decided to implement the Olmecs instead. But with some brainstorming maybe we can make them work. Care to explain your reasoning for the ideas above?

    One thing I realized from working on the Olmecs is that the Monte Alban tile should be on the hill 1S of the stone, rather than on the stone. The Zapotec heartland is in Oaxaca state, which is not adjacent to the Gulf of Mexico. And I'm not sure what the southern hill tile should be if not the Oaxaca highlands.

    Other random ideas about the Zapotecs: they called themselves the "cloud people"; they're the ones who developed cochineal dye production; they built cities high up above the valleys and fed them with irrigation systems.

    I don't know much about the Mixtec; would it make sense to combine them with the Zapotecs?
     
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  13. 1SDAN

    1SDAN Brother Lady

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    FTFY
     
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  14. 1SDAN

    1SDAN Brother Lady

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    Hotfix

    Yuezhi Food from religion capped at 2
    Yuezhi UP Food now updates properly when a religion spreads
    Yuezhi UP tweaked to make use of existing religion happiness and religion commerce update methods
     
  15. 1SDAN

    1SDAN Brother Lady

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    Hotfix: Fixed religions contributing 100 gold and culture to Yuezhi cities instead of 1... my god what have I done?
     
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  16. Steb

    Steb King

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    BTW I tried the Yuezhi briefly the other day and it was very confusing to have the mountain pass near Samarkand open up ... and then become a mountain again? Before opening up again? Something like that. And then the roads appearing all over the desert a few turns after spawn. Maybe these things could all happen upon the Yuezhi spawn for less confusion.
     
  17. 1SDAN

    1SDAN Brother Lady

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    That's all vanilla DoC there, but I'll move them to the Yuezhi spawn for the next update. By the way, I can confirm the first part of the Yuezhi UHV is not currently possible, expect it to be fixed in the next update.
     
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  18. phoenixfire7

    phoenixfire7 Chieftain

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    Maybe they could get extra food on hills and mountains as their UP?
     
  19. phoenixfire7

    phoenixfire7 Chieftain

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    Explaining those ideas, the UB and the UHV3 are about the mixtecs and how they were famous for codices as well as gold and turquoise jewelry (represented by the markets) , which they used as bribe/tributes to the Aztecs.
    The UHV2 is about how the Aztecs weren't popular among their neighbours which meant they may have collapsed very soon even if the Spanish didn't arrive and when the spaniards did arrive a lot of tribes joined their army against the Aztecs (these tribes were mostly on the gulf coast but I included it there to represent the unpopularity of the Aztecs).
     
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  20. 1SDAN

    1SDAN Brother Lady

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    Yet another iterative update to get the Yuezhi up to standards

    Removed Yuezhi UP Food
    Yuezhi UP now also halves Religious Disunity instability
    Changed Dunhuang Horse tile from desert to plains
    Dunhuang Horse Tile will lose its Horse and plains in 100 CE
    Yuezhi UHV1 pushed forwards to 100 CE and no longer requires a capital, only a city
    Yuezhi starts with a Catapult and Asvaka
    The Yuezhi spawn triggers the Silk Road resources and route additions

    I have tested and can confirm that the first UHV is now possible, including in situations where the Persians have conquered Samarkand.
     

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