CivIV: Warlords - New Leaders shown here!

[Eternalsteelfan]

This is silly. Chairman Mao killed more people than Stalin and Hitler put together and he's always in the game! But I guess it doesn't offend anyone in the games target audience if millions of Chinese peasants get killed

Agreed, as I said before it seems Stalin and Hitler are taboos but the men who killed just as many (Mao) or more (Khan) are acceptable.

Mao didn't kill more then Stalin and Hitler though, Genghis Khan did.

 

[Raisin Bran]

History was swarming with leaders that killed thousands, millions of people

We just forget the older ones cuz it was done in ancient times .... but we tend to remember those that did awful things 60 years ago.

Im not against stalin for the simple reason that the world we live in right now has been in a big way influenced by his actions. I always wanted Hitler to be there for a WW2 scenario. anyhow.

From My point of view in 500 years when our great great great great great grand children will play civ 83 they wont say anything when they bring him back in the game !

 

[monkspider]

Thanks, finally some useful information about the new add-on.
I am bit disappointed about the units. The 2K press release talks about "new powerful warlord unit"s, so I thought we might get a leader specific unit, at last. Or at least some kind of second UU, which seems to be the case for the English. But with only ten new units what about the rest? Or did I miss something?
In contrast, that unique building thing sounds interesting, but how will they implement that? Hopefully, they make sure that if you have a late game UU you will get an early game UB and vice versa - just to balance things a bit.
CellKu

That's an interesting point about the unique buildings, I hope they do that too. I wouldn't put too much faith in the number of units to expect though. This is a translation of a translation, so to speak, and the number of units is something that can change easier than the number of civs/leaders.

 

[MarkC1]

Stalin looks awesome!

But.... Wheres hitler?

I know the whole PC thing is the craze these days... but its a game based on historical events and people! how can you not include him??

Putting your finger in your ear and going "La La LA.." everytime someone mentions hitler will not undo what he did ...besides why is everyone trying to forget about it?

 

[Urederra]

Perhaps he meant Carlos V, who would certainly be a suitable choice. I would prefer him to El Cid, just because he was an actual leader of Spain. Phillip II would be another possibility.

Phillip II is a better option than El Cid, after all, El Cid never ruled the country, and Phillip II ruled the spanish empire as its height, when is was larger than the Mongolian or Russian ones, maybe the second largest after the British as its height, but that i have to double check

Another leader i liked is Alfonso X (Screw the English spelling, I am writting his name in spanish ), As a scientific and religious leader. He created the Tranlation school of Toledo, (could make a good great wonder) where the knowledge of the ancient greeks and romans was translated from arab to latin by arabs, jews and christians (yep, seems that he made them work in harmony), allowing Europe to wake up from their dark ages.

 

[Snerk]

Does anyone know when this expansion pack is due to release?

 

[Thasis]

"We all are evil at heart" Thank you for coming to a conclusion that all philosophers have been struggling over since the dawn of thought. I'll make sure to quote you if I write an essay. "Religion has forced morals down societies throats over the ages and created us all believing that supposed good is what we should all strive for." Oh, I had no idea it religion was the advent of morality. My God, paying money for an eduation is useless when you have internet access. I am learning a lot today. Oh, and what's this, "I disagree, power is what we should strive for" wonderful! I have a new mantra. Power is where it's at. Get that power at any cost! Even if it means killing lots and lots and lots of people! Oh no, there is more, "Which is why I said "GO STALIN!". He was a great dictator." wonderful! Yes, the mark of every great leader is how many innocent people they kill. A post like Thasis' is why forums are a joke these days.

"You've been brainwashed by society!" "No I havn't" Sorry, couldn't help but put in random Anthrax the Invisible Victim quotes.

On a serious note, there is more to my opinions. If I put them in a more serious way it could cause a major uproar and cause this perfectly good thread to go into a morals debate, which is why I made it more of a joking sort of thing. If you want to get a into a real debate where I'm being serious then contact me at dungeonmaster2847@hotmail.com
But I highly doubt you want to interact with me so you have your opinions and I have mine and we'll leave it at that.

 

[Uiler]

Talking about offensive - isn't Victoria offensive to Chinese? After all it was during her reign that the Opium wars and the other acts of British imperialism in China occurred that humiliated China and brought the country to its knees. And there is no "we were at war with China and they started it" excuse. It was just imperialism, greed and conquest - plain and simple. There is no way you can justify it in today's morality.

Not that I'm saying that Victoria should be left out of the game, but just to support people saying that even "good" leaders may not be so good from another people's perspective. That is most leaders piss someone off

Looking at in the reverse direction even someone as "universally" hated as Hitler is not offensive to most Asians and most of the Muslim and African world and maybe not even in the Latin American world (??). In fact I know some Africans who admire Hitler ("the enemy of my enemy is my friend" thing) It's only in the Western world that he is despised. Which means that every leader that piss people off are not offensive to other people.

 

[Guerra]

Gandhi was never President, he was still included in Civ IV, so I think Great Warlords/Generals, like El Cid, Rommel, and the like should be included, instead of mediocre or horrible Kings, Dictators, etc

 

[Cloud Tiamat]

Looks like Babylon isn't going to make the cut again. Just tell me what is the use of having 3 Leaders/Civ if basic Civs like the Vikings, the Babylonians and the Iroquois aren't included????

Anyway, let's just wait and see, if the expansion won't include AT LEAST some of what I listed above, Civ has lost one of its greatest fans... and I'm more than certain that I won't be the only one...

I hope Babylon/Sumer will make a comeback in Warlords.

 

[Guerra]

Babylon would be nice. The Mayans, the Vikings, Zulus, Carthage, etc

 

[Sahkuhnder]

Reading this thread I don't see much disagreement over which leaders killed large numbers of people or would be considered evil because of their actions.

The greater question seems to be: Is it O.K. to include a mass-murderer as a leaderhead?

If the answer is no, then many of the current and planned leaders should not be allowed.

If the answer is yes, then Hitler should not be prohibited solely due to the deaths he caused. You could argue he doesn't deserve to be included as a leader because he only ruled for a short period or that he led his country to disaster, but exclusion strictly for being evil would be inconsistent.

That being said IMHO Hitler will never be included due to both the political uproar it would cause and the German laws against display of Nazi symbols, etc.

 

[Belboz]

That looks nothing like Brian Blessed!

True, but it looks not unlike Roddy McDowell, who played Octavian in the 1963 Movie 'Cleopatra.' Maybe Hollywood inspired the artists more than the BBC did.

 

[MasterShake]

"someone mentioned Hitler"-Giant Raven

I'll bet there will be about 3 to 4 more pages about the morels of putting hitler
in the game

 

[Guerra]

Its not a matter of whether they killed lots of people, its their lasting contribution to their Civilization.

For instance, Catherine the Great contributed more to Russian culture, society, and identity than Stalin ever did.

Genghis Khan killed plenty of people, and was a villain, but he unified the Mongols and is the quintessential Mongolian leader. If it weren't for him, the Mongols wouldn't even have been picked as a Civilization.

 

[Greek Stud]

Im not offended that Stalin is in the game, even though I do not like that he killed 11 million Russians and attacked the Russian Orthodox Church because of Communist Ideals. I side with the lives of the 11 million Russians killed, and my prayers are with them. But you don't just ignore a historical character just because you don't agree with them. Civilization is not about bringing out history that makes us happy, it is about history itself, and human history is not all flowers and smiles.

If Kemil Ataturk was put into Civ IV Warlords I would not be offended, because the Turks view him as a World War scenario hero; while the Serbs, Albanians, Bulgarians, Croats, Armenians, Assyrians, Nestorians, Maronites, Jews, Pontics, and Greeks were all victim to the Orthodox Christian Genocide in Ottoman Turkey. Churchill was a President that condemned the Ottoman Empire and its cleansing policy as Hitler was off in Nazi Germany advocating a World War 2 cleansing of Jews on the pretense of, "Who today speaks about the Armenians?"

Does the fact that Stalin is on here mean that the "Soviet Union" is a new Civ.

Stalin and Lenin as Leaderheads? Because Russia already has 2 leaderheads.

 

[Silica_Pathways]

That being said IMHO Hitler will never be included due to both the political uproar it would cause and the German laws against display of Nazi symbols, etc.

I will not stand double standarts for sure, Stalin killed more of my people as Hitler did, so if Stalin will be included, but Hitler not, i'll consider it as a insult to all people who died because of Stalin, but now are considered worthless, because Hitler killed 'more of important' people (jews) It's almost like racism u know, u can slaughter millions of eastern europeans and it's nothing, but if u kill some jews, it's already a big deal I hope this will not be the situation in Warlords and BOTH mass murderers will be included.

 

[Guerra]

Crash, that post was just absurd.

Stalin, Hitler, both monsters. If there is a WWII scenario, then adding them is fine, but for regular gameplay, I don't think its appropriate, because their positive impact on their civilization was dwarfed by their blunders.

National heros and champions should be included in as leaders, not villains.

 

[Lord_Iggy]

Sheesh, how many discussions will there be on the morals of having Hitler in the game.

My opinion: There are already 2 German leaderheads, both of whom were much better for their countries. Case closed.

 

[silver 2039]

Crash, that post was just absurd.

Stalin, Hitler, both monsters. If there is a WWII scenario, then adding them is fine, but for regular gameplay, I don't think its appropriate, because their positive impact on their civilization was dwarfed by their blunders.

National heros and champions should be included in as leaders, not villains.

In Russia many consider Stalin as a hero similar to Mao.
Regardless weather they are "good" or "bad" they leaders should be in for the impact and importance they had upon thei rnations and no one can deney that Stalin and Hitler both had massive impact and importance on not just their nations but the world. They are a part of history just like any other regardless about how they are tought of. There is not doubt in the historical context they are Great Men.