CiVUP - CiV Unofficial Patch

[Thalassicus]

3. is tricky, since for example riflemen get big boost if upgraded from pikes, but if it is removed, then Terico upgrade suffers (they have free +100% vs mounted).

I wouldn't worry about details of implementation like that. The simple solution is to split the promotion into pikeman and Tercio versions, so upgradeability can be handled separately.

My priority is the question of should things be done... how it's to be done is a secondary concern.

 

[player1 fanatic]

Actually, that's important too, if idea of the mod is to implement things that will eventually be added into official patch (or that we hope that will be in new patch). I just can't see them splitting one promotion in two just to solve this issue.

Anyway, I'm for option 2, for start. Less open questions that way. Everything is clear.

Later, it can always be revised and more things added.

 

[Tomice]

Why shouldn't we expect them to do it right? ;-)

 

[Minor Annoyance]

@Minor Annoyance
These fixes were included in 1.135, I'm removing them for the next version which should be out today:

• With luck a Scout could turn into a Rifleman or better in the ancient era and wipe out a continent. Ancient Ruins no longer can provide such a dramatic tech leap.
• Happiness calculation now includes garrisoned units (display bug only).
• Fixed bug with pipes between techs (display bug only).

...and this part:

• Cities heal more quickly

Since that's in the official patch, I assume it's not to be in this one anymore.

 

[Seek]

...and this part:

• Cities heal more quickly

Since that's in the official patch, I assume it's not to be in this one anymore.

A tooltip update in this mod that reflects the fact that defensive buildings affect city healing would be good as it's not very obvious atm.

 

[Thalassicus]

@Minor Annoyance
Right, forgot to mention that. In the readme files it's actually in the combat mod since that's where the change originated.

@Seek
Good point, I didn't notice they'd left the healing bonus out of the tooltip. After looking through the data, I actually don't know what the heck alters the city healing rate! I see no attribute for it with the city defenses. I only can assume it was hardcoded somehow in the building or its defense rating... not sure exactly what the mechanics are.

 

[MouseyPounds]

@Seek
Good point, I didn't notice they'd left the healing bonus out of the tooltip. After looking through the data, I actually don't know what the heck alters the city healing rate! I see no attribute for it with the city defenses. I only can assume it was hardcoded somehow in the building or its defense rating... not sure exactly what the mechanics are.

We've done some limited testing in another topic. It seems to be a hardcoded extra bonus of building Defense.

 

[VimesUK]

@Minor Annoyance
These fixes were included in 1.135, I'm removing them for the next version which should be out today:

• With luck a Scout could turn into a Rifleman or better in the ancient era and wipe out a continent. Ancient Ruins no longer can provide such a dramatic tech leap.
• Happiness calculation now includes garrisoned units (display bug only).
• Fixed bug with pipes between techs (display bug only).

Is this update going to take a little longer..? No problems if it is I'll just atart a new game without it.

Thanks for your hard work in what you do, it is most appreciated.

 

[Thalassicus]

Yeah, I wanted to give it a little more time for people to catch bugs in the testing version. I'm playing through a game right now to look for errors, shortly after that I'll be updating the mods.

 

[VimesUK]

Excellent news and thanks again.

 

[BomberEscort]

...My priority is the question of should things be done... how it's to be done is a secondary concern.

My interpretation, based on 1.0.1.135 XML, is that Firaxis intends for negative penalties to be lost with an upgrade.

Case 1: PROMOTION_CITY_PENALTY. Changed in 1.0.1.135 to LostWithUpgrade = true

Case 2: PROMOTION_SMALL_CITY_PENALTY. Added in 1.0.1.135 and LostWithUpgrade = true.

Case 3: PROMOTION_MUST_SET_UP. Changed in 1.0.1.135 and LostWithUpgrade = true.

It appears they are heading this direction...

 

[player1 fanatic]

Exactly!

 

[VimesUK]

Thanks for the update and workaround due to the uploading issues

 

[BomberEscort]

... 3. is tricky, since for example riflemen get big boost if upgraded from pikes, but if it is removed, then Terico upgrade suffers (they have free +100% vs mounted)...

What you could do is have PROMOTION_ANTI_MOUNTED_II expire with upgrade and give the Terico PROMOTION_ANTI_MOUNTED_I (which currently is only used by the Siamese War Elephant and doesn't expire with upgrade). Granted PROMOTION_ANTI_MOUNTED_I is only +50%, but it could be changed to +100% and the War Elephant could be moved from I to II.

 

[player1 fanatic]

I had that same "denied" issue when trying to post mod, even during last patch (more then a few weeks ago).

Eventually, it just accepted new version on it's own (after wasting 5-6 version numbers).

 

[Thalassicus]

@BomberEscort
Wow, thanks for pointing that out! The changes weren't documented in the patch notes...

It seems logical, then, to go with #2 in the unofficial patch. I'll make the appropriate updates.

On a related note, I've been thinking about including the promotion swapping in this mod (swaps ranged with melee promotions to match unit ranged/melee status when upgraded). This is currently in the Combat mod but feels like it should be something in the core game, not really a balance issue but a fundamental and logically consistent part of upgrades. Anyone have an opinion on the subject?

 

[Minor Annoyance]

On a related note, I've been thinking about including the promotion swapping in this mod (swaps ranged with melee promotions to match unit ranged/melee status when upgraded). This is currently in the Combat mod but feels like it should be something in the core game, not really a balance issue but a fundamental and logically consistent part of upgrades. Anyone have an opinion on the subject?

So far I actually like it the way it is. Unless I'm mistaken, the ranged promotions only affect offense, so it's not exactly the same as the melee versions. That does make the ranged promotions not as good, but you can add the equivalent melee promotions to it and have an unnaturally large attack bonus from having both sets of promotions on the same unit but not as much defense because only the melee promotions do that. Also you won't have access to the promotions that require prerequisites because you've spent your levels on promotions lines that can't continue. So I actually like the odd combination of abilities and trade offs it creates, but maybe I'm alone in this, and I'm usually the last person to realize when something is exploitable, so maybe there's bigger reasons to change it that I'm not seeing.

 

[Thalassicus]

Actually, the accuracy/bombard promotions only affect , ranged combat attack strength. When a ranged unit upgrades to melee its promotions have no effect. The upgraded unit is quite worse than a newly-built one because it has no combat bonuses, but requires more experience to get promotions due to its pre-existing level.

As a result, in vanilla it's usually better to delete units that swap ranged/melee status and train something new, unless the units are very high level. This feels sorta weird to me, and is the reason I made promotion swapping, so you can keep your experienced units around.

 

[Ahriman]

You could have:
No attributes obsolete (vanilla game)
Negative attributes obsolete (artillery -> rocket artillery no longer requires setup, etc)
Negative attributes and positive, non-UU attributes obsolete (pikemen -> riflemen loses its mounted bonus, since they no longer use the Pike weapon)
Negative, positive, and UU attributes obsolete.

I would say:
a) Penalties should always be removed when upgraded (and then apply whatever upgrades apply to the new chassis). eg artillery setup requirement
b) Normal promotions that are available on both the old unit and the new unit are retained (eg: swordsman drill promotion retained when upgraded to longswordsman).
c) Normal promotions that are not available to the new unit are lost: eg crossbow upgrades to rifleman, it loses its ranged bombardment promotions. Lancer upgraded to AT gun loses its bonus vs cavalry, Pikeman upgraded to rifle loses huge bonus vs mounted, etc.
d) UU-specific bonus promotions are always retained.

Yes, this means that a Rifleman that Spain builds will be different to one upgraded from Tercios, but I think this is ok.
Call it a special advantage for Spain that at one period it had a special anti-cavalry doctrine.

The alternative is losing these, which is very bad for balance; some UUs would be very weak for their faction if the bonuses were not retained.

I don't think that ranged bombardment promotions should be able to convert into something new.
It is far easier to obtain and retain highly experienced bombardment units than for melee units, because they fight every round and can do so without ever being put at risk.

If you did have some kind of conversion system, then I would convert them to a much weaker modern version; eg bombardment promotions that give +20% convert into melee promotions that give +5% or something.
They should definitely not convert a 20% ranged promotion into a 20% melee promotion.

 

[Minor Annoyance]

Really? I thought I remember seeing it give the bonus... Maybe I wasn't reading it carefully and it was actually the standard bonus from attacking into open terrain I was seeing. I wish my old saves weren't so unreliable when reloading so I could see what it was I was seeing.
Anyway, if they are useless then they should be switched at upgrade.