Clinton: women living shorter lives in American than other developed countries

[MobBoss]

I think it should probably be noted that those who sign pledges to be abstinent until marriage are statistically much more likely to have premarital sex than those who refuse to sign the pledges.

I believe the same has been found true of pledges not to drink alcohol or do drugs.

Psychological studies have found that in general declaring one's goals publicly (at least to those who approve of them) gives a sense of accomplishment without any actual accomplishment. It makes us think we are doing better than we are, and thus we don't try as much. Those who keep their goals private tend to think of them as more difficult, underrate how well they are doing, and are much more likely to fulfill them.

Some think that such pledges bring the forbidden topics to mind more, like when you tell someone not to think of a pink elephant.

Some note that parents may try harder to force the kids whom they fear are most likely to have sex or use drugs to sign such pledges, so the commitment was never real to begin with.

So, programs like AA are complete bunk then? Because part of the base of that program is indeed accepting and declaring your hopelessly addicted to alcohol. And yet there are people who go through that program successfully and never touch a drop of alcohol again.

Btw, the wiki on AA says the most recent surveys of AA members indicated a 35% of people in AA have been continuously sober for at least 10 years.

One of the biggest "memes" continued to be perpetuated primarily by far-right Christians is that even mentioning sex in the public schools is supposed to be a tacit license for them to engage in casual sex.

Which meme would that be?

Still trying to show you don't even know what "bigoted" means, much less "provincial" and "backwards"?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, Form. You're the only guy around here that knows what words mean.

They wish to force everybody to live as they see fit like they used to do in the past.

Pure bullcrap. That's nothing more than paranoia speaking to be honest.

I notice you've abandoned the abstinence-only rhetoric. Couldnt find any states that were actually abstinence-only could ya?

 

[Old Hippy]

So, programs like AA are complete bunk then? Because part of the base of that program is indeed accepting and declaring your hopelessly addicted to alcohol. And yet there are people who go through that program successfully and never touch a drop of alcohol again.

Btw, the wiki on AA says the most recent surveys of AA members indicated a 35% of people in AA have been continuously sober for at least 10 years.

can we expect such a high rate of success, from teenagers abstaining from sex though?

 

[MobBoss]

can we expect such a high rate of success, from teenagers abstaining from sex though?

Hard to say since there isnt going to be any real stats on it though. However, if you consider the inverse of:

http://health.usnews.com/health-new...0/06/02/more-than-40-of-us-teens-have-had-sex

Then the number of teens that havn't had sex is somewhere at least in the high 50th percentile.

And it was in a downward trend at the time of that study.

In other words, not even a majority of teens have sex, in spite of the popular belief otherwise that all teens are sex crazed maniacs with everyone doing it.

However, the real catastrophe of what's going on in America is indeed purveyed in this study:

Seventy-one percent of female teens in 2006-2008 "agreed" or "strongly agreed" that "it is OK for an unmarried female to have a child," about the same proportion as 2002. But now 64 percent of males agreed with the statement, up from 50 percent in 2002.

That belief is purposefully setting our teens up for failure - especially young women. And a direct problem in our society today. Actually, this false perception is a large part of what is holding women back per Hillary Clintons comments. I'd suggest that the sitgma against a single woman having a child actually did more for woman's equality than the belief that it's just fine to have a child out of wedlock.

And apparently today's teen males thing it perfectly acceptable to father a child with a woman and leave her to her fate.

That's dispicable to me.

 

[NovaKart]

So what's your point? That other parts of the country are just as backward as much of the Deep South is? I don't think anybody is even suggesting that. It is a matter of degree largely based on how rural the particular area is. But in the South you see much of the same pervasive far-right Christian morality in even the more densely populated areas where that is typically not the case in other parts of the country.

.

My point is that plenty of other places outside of the South are conservative and could be described as backwards by the latte crowd.

 

[Formaldehyde]

And apparently today's teen males thing it perfectly acceptable to father a child with a woman and leave her to her fate.

There isn't much "fate" in having a simple abortion after a pregnancy which shouldn't have occurred in the first place. Fortunately, shotgun weddings are indeed becoming a relic of the past. How many people do you know who were born within 9 months of their parents being married? It used to be quite pervasive before effective birth control and the legalization of abortion. Many of those marriages eventually ended in divorce after spending years of loveless marriage for the supposed sake of the unwanted child.

That's dispicable to me.

I think you mean "despicable". And what I think is "despicable" is deliberately ignoring the real reason why so many teenage pregnancies continue to occur. That it is directly related to the bigoted backward policies of those you help elect, and which you continue to rationalize and defend.

My point is that plenty of other places outside of the South are conservative and could be described as backwards by the latte crowd.

That is true. The red states go all the way to the border of Canada. But that is hardly an endorsement for bigotry and trying to force everybody else to live in the distant past based on mythology, no matter where it is found in the US. It just still happens to be far more prevalent in the Deep South than in other parts of the country.

It can even be seen in the map of locations where women have worsening life expectancy with a handful of exceptions:

 

[NovaKart]

Certain attitudes may be more prevalent in the Deep South but it's not really an excuse to portray it as inherently more backwards.

 

[ace99]

And apparently today's teen males thing it perfectly acceptable to father a child with a woman and leave her to her fate.

That's dispicable to me.

I agree. They should at least have the decency to pay for her abortions.

I remember my friend telling me about how he was with this one girl and found out that she was cheating on him with some guy and that she was pregnant. They weren't sure who the father was so they split the $$$ of the abortion between the two of them. I told him that they should have split it three-ways and made the girl pay.

He replied, " That would have been impolite."

That's how a gentleman does.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Certain attitudes may be more prevalent in the Deep South but it's not really an excuse to portray it as inherently more backwards.

To me, deliberately not properly teaching children critical topics such as evolution and sex are clear signs of being "inherently more backwards". This is especially true now that HIV is such a major health issue. YMMV.

I agree. They should at least have the decency to pay for her abortions.

I remember my friend telling me about how he was with this one girl and found out that she was cheating on him with some guy and that she was pregnant. They weren't sure who the father was so they split the $$$ of the abortion between the two of them. I told him that they should have split it three-ways and made the girl pay.

He replied, " That would have been impolite."

That's how a gentleman does.

I completely agree. I have stated numerous times in this forum that a male who gets a female pregnant should have the legal maximum financial liability of half the cost of an abortion. But the gentlemanly thing to do would be to incur the entire cost.

 

[civ_king]

There isn't much "fate" in having a simple abortion after a pregnancy which shouldn't have occurred in the first place. Fortunately, shotgun weddings are indeed becoming a relic of the past. How many people do you know who were born within 9 months of their parents being married? It used to be quite pervasive before effective birth control and the legalization of abortion. Many of those marriages eventually ended in divorce after spending years of loveless marriage for the supposed sake of the unwanted child.

I think you mean "despicable". And what I think is "despicable" is deliberately ignoring the real reason why so many teenage pregnancies continue to occur. That it is directly related to the bigoted backward policies of those you help elect, and which you continue to rationalize and defend.

That is true. The red states go all the way to the border of Canada. But that is hardly an endorsement for bigotry and trying to force everybody else to live in the distant past based on mythology, no matter where it is found in the US. It just still happens to be far more prevalent in the Deep South than in other parts of the country.

It can even be seen in the map of locations where women have worsening life expectancy with a handful of exceptions:

They should learn responsibility.

Personal responsibility. I have chosen to abstain from sex thus far.

I would like to point out that life expectancy for people without a high school diploma has fallen across the board. The decline in the South is probably caused by people with an education flocking to cities where they can earn more and better afford health care thus increasing the concentration of uneducated people in some counties.

To me, deliberately not properly teaching children critical topics such as evolution and sex are clear signs of being "inherently more backwards". This is especially true now that HIV is such a major health issue. YMMV.

I completely agree. I have stated numerous times in this forum that a male who gets a female pregnant should have the legal maximum financial liability of half the cost of an abortion. But the gentlemanly thing to do would be to incur the entire cost.

What if she claimed she was using birth control, but she wasn't or knew she wasn't using it correctly (like missing a few pills)?

 

[Farm Boy]

I completely agree. I have stated numerous times in this forum that a male who gets a female pregnant should have the legal maximum financial liability of half the cost of an abortion.

This gets tricky. Absence of rights in the decision making at this stage(and rightfully so) do not make a good playground for legal financial obligation. With legally mandated financial obligations should a child be brought to term there are at least corresponding paternal rights. I wouldn't be innately against a financial obligation during the pregnancy, but I would think it would need to come along with at least some legal voice in the process, which I think is probably undesirable at that point.

 

[civ_king]

This gets tricky. Absence of rights in the decision making at this stage(and rightfully so) do not make a good playground for legal financial obligation. With legally mandated financial obligations should a child be brought to term there are at least corresponding paternal rights. I wouldn't be innately against a financial obligation during the pregnancy, but I would think it would need to come along with at least some legal voice in the process, which I think is probably undesirable at that point.

Whatever her decision is will affect him dramatically.

 

[MobBoss]

There isn't much "fate" in having a simple abortion after a pregnancy which shouldn't have occurred in the first place.

Easy for you to say since you're a dude. Many women suffer depression, anxiety, and other issues because of it, not to mention that no procedure like this, even if routine, doesn't still carry risk.

Pretty sexist and cold of you to simply say 'she's a woman, let her get an abortion' as if thats the answer to everything.

I think you mean "despicable". And what I think is "despicable" is deliberately ignoring the real reason why so many teenage pregnancies continue to occur. That it is directly related to the bigoted backward policies of those you help elect, and which you continue to rationalize and defend.

You keep saying those words. I don't think they mean what you think they mean.

Seriously.

And yeah, still cant pin down a single state that is indeed abstinence-only can you? And Lord knows, I'm sure you searched. But your effort can be summarized in one word:

Fail.

 

[ParkCungHee]

That belief is purposefully setting our teens up for failure - especially young women. And a direct problem in our society today. Actually, this false perception is a large part of what is holding women back per Hillary Clintons comments. I'd suggest that the sitgma against a single woman having a child actually did more for woman's equality than the belief that it's just fine to have a child out of wedlock.

That's not really a reliable question to gauge people's beliefs on "it is OK for an unmarried female to have a child" can carry a multitude of normative and practical layers of meaning, and I don't think 71% of female teens believe the average unmarried woman having a child is going to face no negative consequences for that.

 

[NovaKart]

To me, deliberately not properly teaching children critical topics such as evolution and sex are clear signs of being "inherently more backwards". This is especially true now that HIV is such a major health issue. YMMV.

We learned all of this when I was in school, I think it's rather short sighted to declare a state uniformly backwards because they don't prioritize the same curriculum that you do and it's also ignoring many Southern schools that do teach those things.

When I was in school there was a controversy over evolution and how teachers were supposed to call it change over time or something like that, all the teachers and students just laughed about it and continued with the same thing.

 

[MobBoss]

We learned all of this when I was in school, I think it's rather short sighted to declare a state uniformly backwards because they don't prioritize the same curriculum that you do and it's also ignoring many Southern schools that do teach those things.

Bravo. Very well said.

 

[JollyRoger]

Pretty sexist and cold of you to simply say 'she's a woman, let her get an abortion' as if thats the answer to everything.

Should she be able to get an abortion against the father's wishes if he wants the child born and for her to cover half of the costs of raising the child?

 

[Crezth]

Pretty sexist and cold of you to simply say 'she's a woman, let her get an abortion' as if thats the answer to everything.

As opposed to "she's a woman, don't let her get an abortion?"

 

[MobBoss]

As opposed to "she's a woman, don't let her get an abortion?"

Not at all. I've never been one of those that are against abortion in 100% of all cases. I would wish women choose adoption over abortion, however, I'm in favor of abortion law that makes sense and is fair while still considering the rights of the unborn. In other words, I see a decided difference in a first trimester abortion and a late term one that requires partial birth for instance.

But that's neither here nor there where the topic is concerned.

 

[Formaldehyde]

But that is exactly what the topic is, as well as a direct refutation of the remark you just made:

Pretty sexist and cold of you to simply say 'she's a woman, let her get an abortion' as if thats the answer to everything.

What I think is "sexist and cold" as well as "pathetic" and even "despicable" is trying to rationalize and defend depriving her of her right to have that abortion based on outdated provincial religious beliefs. If she wants to have the child despite no desire whatsoever of the male to do so, it should solely be her responsibility instead of his. It is no different than the choice that many single women make on their own these days from a desire to have a child despite not being married.

As usual, it is really none of your business what others decide to do with their private lives. I suggest you preach to yourself and your own family instead of everybody else for a welcome change.

 

[Crezth]

But that's neither here nor there where the topic is concerned.

I just think it's rather disingenuous to paint the "do not regulate the reproductive rights of women at all" position as misogynist. That requires quite a leap of faith when the alternative is basically "police the vagina" - be it a little or a lot, it's the principle that is the thing.