Colonizing the Moon or Mars? Who first?

Mr Moron said:
At least when a car crashes there is some chance of survival. When something on this bubble colony fails and the entire contents is sucked out into the void you aren't going to live.

Mmhmm. No wonder you think this -- you're ignorant of a practical colony design. There would be no bubbles, outside perhaps wildlife areas. Early colonies would be constructed in the sides of hills and craters, and would be modular. Indeed, I don't see how anyone ever saw bubble colonies as being practical. They're extraordinarily dangerous.

We may have interest but that does not equate with ability. The distance makes it too hard to maintain. Terraforming takes far too long, I don't think it would be possible to see it through to the end without the downfall of however is doing it.

...what? Terraformation shouldn't be attempted until the Martian colonies have a decent level of self sufficiency. Including genetic diversity.

Everything dies someday my friend. Eventually even this whole universe is going to turn itself inside out and die. That isn't any real reason to redirect time energy and thought needed to live here on earth comfortably to some false hope of a short stay of execution in space. Our best bet is to make a good run of it here.

The problem with your plan is that the human race commits suicide in it. A pleasant poison, perhaps, but one in which nothing is accomplished except our own destruction. At least if we die out in space, we die a natural death, not one by our own hand.
 
Global Nexus said:
Mmhmm. No wonder you think this -- you're ignorant of a practical colony design. There would be no bubbles, outside perhaps wildlife areas. Early colonies would be constructed in the sides of hills and craters, and would be modular. Indeed, I don't see how anyone ever saw bubble colonies as being practical. They're extraordinarily dangerous.

Of course I didn't mean literal bubbles, I was simply trying to be colorful with my langauge. The point is, something is keeping the air in and space out, there are tons of systems keeping everything running. Something is going to go wrong evantually, an attack or accident (by said drunk guy) will hit something, somwhere at the wrong place at the wrong time. Then it's all over. Sure we have things like that on earth, but at least if things fail there is some chance of survival (deep-sea oil rigs, ships, antartic science oupost etc..). The enviroment in space is just to hostile to risk a large number of lives living there, it's game over the second you are exposed no second chances. Sure a handful of people on a space station, that I can understand, but a thousands of people? Too great a risk.


...what? Terraformation shouldn't be attempted until the Martian colonies have a decent level of self sufficiency. Including genetic diversity.
What I mean is everything I've heard about Terraforming says it'll take hundreds of years. Between War, Disease, Politics and all the other problems of human society I just don't think we could finish the effort. It's a taxing effort, I just don't think we could stick with it long enough. Something would end up ending the effort before it was finished.




The problem with your plan is that the human race commits suicide in it. A pleasant poison, perhaps, but one in which nothing is accomplished except our own destruction. At least if we die out in space, we die a natural death, not one by our own hand.

I don't see how trying to stick it out here and dying is any less suicide than loading on to rockets and dying in some horrific accident.
 
Mr Moron said:
I don't see how trying to stick it out here and dying is any less suicide than loading on to rockets and dying in some horrific accident.
At least if the latter happens, we were trying to survive, rather than passively accepting death...
 
Mr Moron said:
Of course I didn't mean literal bubbles, I was simply trying to be colorful with my langauge. The point is, something is keeping the air in and space out, there are tons of systems keeping everything running. Something is going to go wrong evantually, an attack or accident (by said drunk guy) will hit something, somwhere at the wrong place at the wrong time. Then it's all over. Sure we have things like that on earth, but at least if things fail there is some chance of survival (deep-sea oil rigs, ships, antartic science oupost etc..). The enviroment in space is just to hostile to risk a large number of lives living there, it's game over the second you are exposed no second chances. Sure a handful of people on a space station, that I can understand, but a thousands of people? Too great a risk.

No, not too great a risk, especially since those people will have known and accepted that risk or, if they were born there, lived with it their entire lives. There are accepted risks in life: how many thousands, nay tens of thousands of people die in car accidents each year? Should we cease using cars because they're too great a risk? No second chances, you say? And? Is that your only point? If it is...well...I'm afraid that the risk you won't allow yourself to take is one that others -- myself, included -- would be willing to take in a heartbeat.

By the way, space stations are almost entirely useless without real spaceships [not our...shuttles] and colonies for them to conduct service to, so why in the heck would you support a station yet not colonies? What's the point?

What I mean is everything I've heard about Terraforming says it'll take hundreds of years. Between War, Disease, Politics and all the other problems of human society I just don't think we could finish the effort. It's a taxing effort, I just don't think we could stick with it long enough. Something would end up ending the effort before it was finished.

We humans have done a lot that seem impossible. And even if we don't, it doesn't matter. We will have adapted to the world with new techniques and technologies and ideas to make life there much easier.

I don't see how trying to stick it out here and dying is any less suicide than loading on to rockets and dying in some horrific accident.

The only problem here is that extinction is not an absolute within space expansion, not within human timescales anyway. It is while we stay here, cry "it's too hard" like the children we still are, and never try to expand our horizons beyond the horizon. I'm not going to accept complete destruction, whether or not I will experience that destruction because I happen to care what my children experience. I cannot support your comfortable, slow suicide of the human race. I will continue trying to live whilst you lay down and die. If we both die, then so be it. If I survive, however, I will continue on and eventually thrive. The chances of survival are made higher if you would try to survive as well, but I really doubt I can convince you to take that risk.
 
Global Nexus said:
By the way, space stations are almost entirely useless without real spaceships [not our...shuttles] and colonies for them to conduct service to, so why in the heck would you support a station yet not colonies? What's the point?

I don't know the point, all I know is we already have them. Maybe they are silly or something, but If they are already up there may as well let them be.
 
The argument that we should just sit here, and wait for the sun to burn up, is ridiculous. It is against human nature.

What do nations do when they run out of space? What have empires all done when they run out of territory? They expand. What shall humanity do when the Earth is full? It shall expand. It is nearly inevitable that we will colonize space, the question is, when will we do it?

*headbuts you in the chest*
 
_Philospher_ said:
Space has always fascinated me, especially the dynamics of terraforming planets and expanding the human presence in the solar system. Recently there has been talk of a manned mission to the moon and then to mars. Some have even talked of colonizing both the moon and mars. My question to the forum is which planet should we invest more resources into colonizing. Mars or the Moon? Which one will provide more beneifts for the high costs?

Here some wiki links (love wiki! :D )

Mars
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonization_of_Mars
http://www.redcolony.com//

Moon
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonization_of_the_Moon
http://www.moonsociety.org/

Moon, because the colonization of Moon can be profitable. Mars is too far away.

Remember, nobody will colonize something, what is useless. There has to be some incentive to move in. On Earth, people settled in colonies because they believed they'll have better lives there.
 
Why colonize either? Take the incredible amount of money that such a project would cost and use it to solve some of our more earthly pressing and immediate problems.
 
rmsharpe said:
There's still plenty of places on earth that are suitable for colonization. :mischief:

Space colonization would allow increased diversity of resources and skills - which would lead to greater specialisation and increased trade potential. This would then lead to greater wealth per capita for everyone involved. i.e., everyone wins.

Why colonize either? Take the incredible amount of money that such a project would cost and use it to solve some of our more earthly pressing and immediate problems.

First: there will always be problems that people think need to be fixed first. If we keep this mindset, then we'll never advance. I suck at analogies, but think of a person who's unwilling to plant a garden until their lawn is weed-free. The opportunity cost of fixing those last few problems (plucking the last few weeds) is really high compared to the benefit you could get putting the same effort into planting a garden.

As well, devotion is better than drudgery. An engineer who wants to build a space station is going to be MUCH more useful building a spacestation than designing furnace systems for buildings. You get a lot more net productivity if you let people do what they're good at doing.

jalapeno_dude said:
Definitely not Mars first. The moon would be good, but large space stations would be just as good.

And space elevators!!!!!

Liftport (see my sig) has a newsletter that you could sign up for. If nothing else, it shows support which improves their morale.
 
I guess it would have to be the moon unless some big advance in the speed of space travel arrived, the estimated sixth month journey in zero gravity to Mars would leave the astronauts crippled (there is significant skeletal and muscular degeneration caused by zero gravity) till they could be rehabilitated, which is kinda tricky on desolate planet...
 
the moon first, because further launches could then be done from there, an would be much more efficient than from earth due to lower gravity.
 
the mormegil said:
I guess it would have to be the moon unless some big advance in the speed of space travel arrived, the estimated sixth month journey in zero gravity to Mars would leave the astronauts crippled (there is significant skeletal and muscular degeneration caused by zero gravity) till they could be rehabilitated, which is kinda tricky on desolate planet...

Ever watched 2001? If you the ship the astronauts are in spinning fast enough, there will be a force that mimics gravity. Centrifugal if a remember my physics terms right.

Still I believe in "moon first" for the same reason others have pointed out.
 
Wouldn't you need to colonise the Moon first as a launch pad to Mars?
 
PrinceOfLeigh said:
Wouldn't you need to colonise the Moon first as a launch pad to Mars?
I dont think youd have to, but it would make the colonization of Mars alot easier.
 
Moon first, the moon will be the launchpad to Mars. Lunar rocks are said to contain appreciable amounts of helium-3 which is a needed component for controlled fusion process, it might even be profitable, if this was the case. Mars should be the first actual colonised planet.
 
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