Columbus Day

[amadeus]

Pointless question. I have absolutely no way of knowing what the modern world would look like without colonization of the Americas and the Columbian Exchange.

Fair answer. The thing that bothers me the most about the Columbus-hating is how the Columbus-haters say that he had no redeeming qualities whatsoever. Now, this isn't to say that his actions were justified, but that some historical figures tend to get kinder treatment and I find it just mind-boggling; Stalin, while killing tens of millions of people, tends to get a better rap just because he was the head of the country that played a major role in helping defeat Germany in Europe.

Now, I'm not all that familiar with Columbus except for his voyages, so was he responsible for any of the killings of Indians, or was it just that he opened routes for people that would in the future colonize the Americas?

 

[Miles Teg]

Now, I'm not all that familiar with Columbus except for his voyages, so was he responsible for any of the killings of Indians, or was it just that he opened routes for people that would in the future colonize the Americas?

Columbus was what we would come to refer to in the common parlance as a "dick". I'm going to pull a quoteblock from a Christian Science Monitor article.

In her book "The Fall of Columbus," Varela uses the testimony from 23 witnesses contained in the document to show that as governor of Hispaniola, Columbus regularly used torture to maintain order on the island. "It was far more brutal than we had known," says Varela. "It was a frontier society, with terrible misery and injustice."

Columbus was also a strong supporter of slavery, refusing to baptize the indigenous people of Hispaniola so that he could enslave them (Spanish law prohibited the enslavement of Christians), and auctioning Spaniards into slavery, including a young boy caught stealing, as punishment. "

Oh, and I forgot this quote from Columbus's own collected writings.

A hundred castellanos are as easily obtained for a woman as for a farm, and it is very general, and there are plenty of dealers who go about looking for girls: those from nine to ten are now in demand, and for all ages a good price must be paid.

 

[civ_king]

We high schoolers need it in the US, without it we run from Labour Day to Armistice Day and that's nuts

 

[kochman]

Maybe you're missing something. I said that invasions, slave taking, and the destruction of indigenous cultures are all bad. They're bad when Europeans do it and when Indians do it and when Middle Easterners do it. They're bad in 1492 and 1942 and 2011.

If I say that I don't like celebrating bullies, the proper response is not "well we should we celebrate the biggest, baddest bully on the playground."

Maybe you're missing something.
Without this having happened... the world would be nowhere near as advanced, and you wouldn't be typing your post on the "internets"...

Get it?

 

[Miles Teg]

Maybe you're missing something.
Without this having happened... the world would be nowhere near as advanced, and you wouldn't be typing your post on the "internets"...

Get it?

We've been over this.

Anyone pontificating about what the world would look like without a 15th/16th century colonization of the Americas and Columbian Exchange might as well save his breath.

In any case, you can't justify the action of a brute like Columbus with the unintended consequences of his actions centuries later. If a butterfly flaps its wings and causes a hurricane on the other side of the world, the butterfly does not become a villain.

Also, I think that after two decades of affordable home computers, we can stop referring to the internet in quotation marks.

 

[kochman]

We've been over this.

Anyone pontificating about what the world would look like without a 15th/16th century colonization of the Americas and Columbian Exchange might as well save his breath.

In any case, you can't justify the action of a brute like Columbus with the unintended consequences of his actions centuries later. If a butterfly flaps its wings and causes a hurricane on the other side of the world, the butterfly does not become a villain

We've been over this.

He was not at all a villain, he was a man of his time. He was a visionary as well. His career was definitely a net plus for the entire world... sorry, but that's the truth.

I'm glad that I don't suffer from historical revisionist syndrome and feel guilty for how I came to be in the life I am in today based on the actions of those in the past.
A "brute" like Columbus... that's just nonsense.

 

[aelf]

He was not at all a villain, he was a man of his time.

In other words, you think people are not responsible for their actions?

 

[timtofly]

Isn't the fact that talking about the man makes him important? If people stopped mentioning his name, he would probably just drop out of history all together.

 

[kochman]

In other words, you think people are not responsible for their actions?

Uh, no, that isn't what I am saying. I didn't think what I said was that complicated, so let me, once again, be perfectly clear, he was a net positive for world history.
I pity people who choose to focus on the negative...

 

[Miles Teg]

I think I'm going to have to start linking to my previous points, just to back up the fact that I've already addressed everything you've said, and you've failed to provide new arguments.

He was not at all a villain, he was a man of his time.

Not an excuse. Morality isn't relative, and the things Columbus and his ilk did were just as wrong then as they are now.

We've been over this.

He was a visionary as well. His career was definitely a net plus for the entire world... sorry, but that's the truth.

We don't actually have any way of knowing that, because I highly doubt that you're capable of constructing some sort of alternate universe viewing machine. Even if it's true that Columbus made the world better, he doesn't get credit for that because all he was trying to do was make a world with lots more Spanish slaves and raped women than he found it. Intentions matter.

We've been over this.

I'm glad that I don't suffer from historical revisionist syndrome and feel guilty for how I came to be in the life I am in today based on the actions of those in the past.

I've been quite clear about the fact that I don't think I or anyone else alive can be blamed for the horrors associated with the colonization of the western hemisphere. History is often tragic, but it's history.

We've been over this.

A "brute" like Columbus... that's just nonsense.

What exactly do you call a man you endorses torture as an instrument of the state and writes in a matter of fact tone about selling nine year old girls into sexual slavery?

We've been over this.

 

[kochman]

Your points are not agreed to...

We've been over this. Save yourself the effort of linking me to your arguments that I dismissed already... re-reading them isn't going to change anything.

 

[aelf]

Uh, no, that isn't what I am saying. I didn't think what I said was that complicated, so let me, once again, be perfectly clear, he was a net positive for world history.
I pity people who choose to focus on the negative...

I specifically quoted the part where you said the man "was not at all a villain" (i.e. not to be blamed for his actions) because "he was a man of his time". If he is to be blamed for his actions, then he can be considered a bad guy.

 

[NovaKart]

He was worse than most people of his time.

 

[Miles Teg]

We've been over this. Save yourself the effort of linking me to your arguments that I dismissed already... re-reading them isn't going to change anything.

Alright, so let's rephrase it. Please explain to me how someone who sold nine year old girls into sexual slavery deserves a national holiday.

 

[GhostWriter16]

We high schoolers need it in the US, without it we run from Labour Day to Armistice Day and that's nuts

We have Rosh Hashannah at our school, but yeah, I agree.

Also, Columbus Day, IMO, more celebrates Columbus' discovery than the man himself.

 

[timtofly]

Alright, so let's rephrase it. Please explain to me how someone who sold nine year old girls into sexual slavery deserves a national holiday.

As an individual, he does not deserve it. In the spirit of exploration, he may. For one to be "mainly" remembered as achieving something to be celebrated instead of his wicked deeds.... it must be a catholic thing?

 

[kochman]

I specifically quoted the part where you said the man "was not at all a villain" (i.e. not to be blamed for his actions) because "he was a man of his time". If he is to be blamed for his actions, then he can be considered a bad guy.

Alright, so let's rephrase it. Please explain to me how someone who sold nine year old girls into sexual slavery deserves a national holiday.

You guys are missing the point. No one is saying, he's a terrible guy, that's why we are celebrating him...
I'm done explaining it to you... Go on hating Columbus and everything his day stands for... it's a waste of breath, but it is your breath in the end.

 

[kochman]

Also, Columbus Day, IMO, more celebrates Columbus' discovery than the man himself.

EXACTLY!
It really has little to do with him, beyond his specific exploits of discovery. They don't really talk about his entire life... they talk about his huge impact.

 

[JollyRoger]

Go on hating Columbus and everything his day stands for...

What's wrong with hating the selling of 9 year old girls into sexual slavery?

 

[GhostWriter16]

EXACTLY!
It really has little to do with him, beyond his specific exploits of discovery. They don't really talk about his entire life... they talk about his huge impact.

I'll point out that, other than wanting a day off of school, I don't actually philosophically see a need for Columbus day, and I don't even think I thought of Columbus once this Columbus day. Its just a day off for no real reason (Which I like.) Not sure how many people actually take the day to celebrate the discovery.

So, other than practical reasons (Too long a period between holidays otherwise) I see no reason it HAS to stay. And if a different holiday replaced it, I couldn't care less. Its not like its a national thing like Independence Day, its just something we do.

That said, the milestone, however forgotten, IS about the discovery of America, not his personal life.

I don't know what Columbus actually did in his life, and if his actions are so bad you can't stand to celebrate his day (This point CAN be reached, even if Hitler discovered something awesome we couldn't have Hitler day) you could change the name to "Discovery of America day" or something less clunky that puts the focus solely on the discovery.

But all this is theoretical, I don't actually give a crap IRL.